RE: Morals without external influence (Full Version)

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MstrssPassion -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 8:01:48 AM)

{fast reply}

There have been many people who have made comments about seemingly great families with great homes having kids turn out bad.

Outside observations are just that... outside. You can't know the reality of what goes on inside other people's lives based on the snippets we get as we move in & out of their environment. I don't care how close you may be to them either... unless you live there, you don't know.

Look at all the families & neighborhoods that have no idea that domestic violence was happening in their friends/families home. People are very good at hiding things when they don't want it to be known.

I've even been with friends/family knowing full well what little hellions their little ones were at times & heard the speech about how you better be on your best behavior or "this/that" won't happen. Ya know what... they little angels pulled it off for the short term but man oh man, if you had only been with them on that ride back home. Experiencing this is the main reason why I have a rule of always driving myself rather than sharing a ride & I refuse to share a hotel room or invite friends/family to stay in my home when doing "get-togethers". I want to enjoy my time with people & having to deal with other people acceptable levels of chaos kind of ruins the whole happy experience.




NeedToUseYou -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 8:03:20 AM)

Ummm, okay, well, in the second update, he informs us the mother "She has a  bit of an anger problem too". I doubt that just developed when the kid was 250 lbs more than likely that anger problem has been there quite awhile. More than likely she had that anger problem when he was 15, 10, 5 years of age, when the strengths of the aggresors where reversed.  It's hard to feel to much compassion when the teacher suffers the lessons they taught the student.




MstrssPassion -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 8:06:49 AM)

exactly my point of talking about breaking rules while driving kids around & then you expect them to follow the rules you set for them

kids learn by example & somewhere in the life of this boy & the one I mentioned they were taught to sort out conflicts by aggression & violence







MstrssPassion -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 8:26:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

Nicely put.


what part?




LTRsubNW -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 9:52:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

Nicely put.


what part?


All of it.




Termyn8or -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 1:25:04 PM)

I'll try to respond a bit.

The stepdad really wanted to beat the tar out of the kid but two things stopped him. One is the kid outweighing him almost 100 lbs., the other problem was the possibility of jail, but he saw the bruise. The kid punched her in the breast and she was sore quite a while.

I am quite a bit less attached and my actions were alot milder than what he wanted to do. My words were also probably more well chosen.

What I tried to explain to him is that I was bad, way worse. It all started small, but my family does not call the police, and unchecked my behavior got worse and worse. They were unable to handle it internally and their only option was to put me out.

I had it coming. I had almost set the house on fire, shot the place up with a 12 ga and kicked the front door down. I wish someone would've beat the living shit out of me after the first action of this nature. There just wasn't anyone handy who could do it.

I told the kid that this was where he was heading and how lucky I was not to be in jail. That he should get a handle on it now. Maintaining the attitude that what he did was OK impelled me to use the minimal force that I did use. I did not slam him into the chair upon walking in the door, that happened after he demonstrated that he thought he was right and didn't want to hear about it.

When the tears came it was not from physical pain. His defenses were breaking down. Did it do any good ? There is no way to know since we can'r have the experience of not having it happen. The kid has alot of respect for me, and that was part of it. I was not a mentor by any means, but he was not happy that I didn't like him anymore.

They also threw him in the DH for 30 days. Did that do any good ? Still unknown, but he doesn't want to go back. He also doesn't want to go back to that little talk with me. Consequences teach, that's what it took for me.

My family taught me a good work ethic, but they failed in certain things. We are different than alot of people. After all I did, one fateful night I was robbed, beat ½ to death by three guys and shot in the face about an inch under the left eye. Laying there in the hospital seeing Mom there after all I had done was something. After all that she still cares. Dad's response was "What the fuck were you doing out there ? an inch higher and you would've lost an eye". Never mind the fact that there is less bone mass there and I would probably be dead or a vegetable. Like one time I got a DUI, he chastised me for taking the wrong route home, not for drinking and driving. We were bad. One time I clipped a parked car and took off. Left a trim piece, like by the taillight at the scene. I hid the car and was getting rides. He bitched at me "And now your afraid to drive it". He said just drive it, if they catch you tell them you found the car like that after coming out of a store somewhere. Mind you, this is something I would never ever do nowadays.

So for me, it had to come from within. And it took a long time. Actually we have all grown up since the old days. That's what I was trying to get across to the kid. I have no choice but to live with this for the rest of my life, and sometimes life really is not too short. Dad did alot of nasty things in his life and has now lived alot longer than he ever thought possible. He has told me that every once in a while it comes back.

For me, I could do nasty things, but I don't. Fear of jail ? No. I can usually handle the court system pretty well. It's guilt. I live with a certain amount of it and I simply do not want to carry any more. I can make amends, I can be nice, but I can never undo it.

That is what I was trying to get across to this kid. I was misguided too, and I told him that he doesn't have anywhere near as far to go as I did. But that could change if he doesn't get a grip, and soon.

I really do wish someone would've beaten the living shit out of me at the right time.

May have done some good. The kid made an attempt. Went to trade school, washed out, but at least tried. Had a couple of jobs which didn't work out because he lacks the work ethic. At least in trying he might come to know what causes failure, which is a step in the right direction. What is going to hit him hard is the day he is actually put out. He is 18 now and after all this he will not be welcome to stay with them anymore. Right now he is there on a grace period they gave him.

Recently his anger got the best of him. He beat up the washing machine. Although not good in and of itself, it was not a person he beat. That, albeit a small step, is in the right direction. Perhaps I should buy him a punching bag ?

That might be a good idea, but I think the maximum benefit will be obtained by the presentment. Perhaps spawned by your responses I might tell him "I know, I was 18 once believe it or not. It is almost unreasonable to expect you to control your anger, so hit this. It will not go to the hospital, it will not put you in jail and it will not sue you".

The slapboxing was to try to get him to see that you alone cause yourself to feel anger. It was part of a talk that included things like "Ever watch a boxing match ? Do you think those guys are angry ? Worked up, hyped up  yes, but not angry. You got a guy keeps hitting you in the face, and there is no anger. That PROVES that you make yourself feel it".

Indeed bravery proves that you make yourself feel fear, and love, by it's very nature proves that you make yourself feel it. Of course there are external infuences, but that is life. When you react, it is not a well thought out thing, but when you respond, it is different. I know a few ex-barroom brawlers, and each one of them will tell you they fight better keeping a cool head. Being angry or intoxicated may increase the likelyhood of a fight, but it is not good for your performance.

Anyway, I just don't want to see the kid have the sordid past I have.

T




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 1:30:42 PM)

You alone cause yourself to feel anger?

I'm all about taking personal responsibility for your issues, and of course it was wrong for him to hit his parent.

But, if we can take what's been said as reality, this kid has a lot of feel angry about- least of all his mother's own anger issues which she's probably forced this kid to endure for quite a long time.

He sounds like a lost, sad, frustrated kid who has no serious person to turn to who can really help him out- and so it comes out as anger.  His mother and his step father don't seem to have given him any of the tools he needs and now he's having to face those consequences.

Yes, sometimes harsh discipline and even physical confrontation can be the right move- but it hasn't worked up till now and there's no reason to suggest it will start any time soon to help towards changing the situation.  And forgive me for looking to the past and thinking that a lot of years of bad parenting have led up to this bad situation we have now.

No, it still doesn't excuse or deny him responsibility for his actions, but it puts everything in the pot that needs to be there and helps focus on what we REALLY need to work on. 

This hit to the mother is merely a symptom of a much deeper and great problem.  Lecturing and hitting back for the hit on the mother does nothing to get to that deeper issue.




Termyn8or -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 2:53:09 PM)

I was trying to get through to him. The unpleasantness was for that purpose, as he was being very ignorant. If it were a punishment I would've hit him in the chest hard. I did not do that, but I'll tell you what, if he does it again I probably will. And no remorse, if that happens.

I wanted to get through to him, he had it rough. His Father was in prison most of his life for GSI. While back they let him out on parole and he was back in within a month.

Also who knows what her next husband was like.

Somebody has to bring this kid into the present. At his age he should be doing better. When he hit Mom, I consider that the act of like a 3 year old. And as someone else pointed out, out in the real world they are not going to put up with him anywhere near as much as his family did.

His past, while it does matter, doesn't mean that this was not what he needed.

At least that's my opinion.

T




missturbation -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 2:55:01 PM)

Im still confused as to how him hitting his mum was violence but u slapping him around a bit wasnt?




Termyn8or -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 3:13:29 PM)

Violence is not a crime in every case. It is the intent that makes the difference.

It doesn't get much plainer than that.

Don't say you don't understand if you disagree, just say you disagree if that is the case. Some do disagreee, and that is fine.

T




WyrdRich -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 3:13:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

This hit to the mother is merely a symptom of a much deeper and great problem.  Lecturing and hitting back for the hit on the mother does nothing to get to that deeper issue.



     It's not supposed to LA.  This was about a behavior that has to be corrected.  A harsh, traumatic lesson is both harsh and traumatic, but sometimes they work really well. The deeper issue is going to take a long time to heal and this kid is heading out into the world now.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 3:17:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich
It's not supposed to LA.  This was about a behavior that has to be corrected.  A harsh, traumatic lesson is both harsh and traumatic, but sometimes they work really well. The deeper issue is going to take a long time to heal and this kid is heading out into the world now.

Didn't I already say that?

Yes, sometimes harsh discipline and even physical confrontation can be the right move- but it hasn't worked up till now and there's no reason to suggest it will start any time soon to help towards changing the situation. 




missturbation -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 3:31:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Violence is not a crime in every case. It is the intent that makes the difference.

It doesn't get much plainer than that.

Don't say you don't understand if you disagree, just say you disagree if that is the case. Some do disagreee, and that is fine.

T


Violence is violence!!
Im not saying i disagree or agree with your actions - not for me to judge and you are the one who has to live with those actions.




WyrdRich -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 3:32:03 PM)

     You are assuming that it has been tried.  If the mom has anger issues, it seems likely the offender recieved some verbal/physical abuse but what the OP and narrative descibe is a different thing altogether.  This is a totally new level in communication.  There is a difference between a blow in anger and a physical aquisition of their attention.  There is such a thing as a constructive cussing out.

    Coming from the right place, it is worth a shot.




sophia37 -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 3:54:01 PM)

Erins got a good point. Kids act out sometimes because they act out. Not becuase the parent is bad. And sometimes male adults see a male teenager and take a whack at the teenager if the teenager gets too out of line.

At one time I always came between the two. Now I take a step back. Ive seen both sides be at fault. And I say there are times when you let the chips fall where they may.






SusanofO -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 4:08:02 PM)

Just so there's no mistake, I wasn't dogging LTRNW for his comment about women maybe being more compassionate (in many case, I think they are. I think my  own mom was sort of an anomaly that way, who knows why?)

I was just trying to figure out what I'd do in this situation, and I guess my answer is that I'd try a couple things, and whatever worked best is what I'd stick with. I would be less inclined to kick them out of the house, for instance, for hitting someone, than not doing that, but - if I had to boot their butt out the door because it appeared nothing else would perhaps work at all as far as getting the point across, I probably would.

However, just like we submissives, other Doms and other books, etc. always tell Doms to "not react in anger:", etc., I think that is just important for people in general to remember. And I'd try to figure out first if I was reacting and acting because I was mainly ticked off, or because I thought it would make the most effective impact as far as improving further behavior, maybe.

And I'm not implying that the OP reacted in anger (not at all; how woud I know? I wasn't there). But I've done (volunteer) work with plenty of abusive parents and half the time (or more) the problem isn't the kid - it's their (the parents') anger management "issue" that's the problem. They somehow can't figure out "how he  or she (their kid) ever learned to behave that way". Gee I wonder...could it be they saw it modelled day in and day out for years?

Again I am not (NOT) saying this happened to the OP (ir even implying that. I don't even know the OP). But I know that can have a temper too, and if I had a kid that hit me, I can actually picture that happening (maybe that's why I made this post). 

- Susan




LTRsubNW -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 4:42:27 PM)

Termyn8tor, there are times when it's far better to shut up. 

(This would be one of those times).




NakedOnMyChain -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/7/2006 11:45:45 PM)

Fuck, this came at an apt time, Termyn8or.  I'm taking this in a completely different way, but here's what I mean...

When I was several years younger I had a real problem with drinking and driving.  I thought it was fun.  I lived out on the back country roads, so I figured the odds were slim on me hurting anyone.  Finally, after several years and seeing too many of my friends get hauled away to jail, I realized what a complete and utter fucking moron I was being, and I quit.  I haven't drove after drinking since then.  I turned into the "Mom" for my group of friends and made sure that everyone had a sober ride home, no matter how they argued that they were "OK" to drive, no matter how pissed they were that they had to leave their car in the parking lot.  I figure it's worth their half-hour's anger to make sure they're safe, and they'll thank me in the morning.

However, the other night I went out with friends (as I do every week or two), and something rare happened:  I had too much to drink.  If I'm slightly tipsy I know better than to drive, but when I'm drunk I really have to keep myself in check, because my common sense goes right out the window.  We were at Brothers' (Purdue campus bar... a little over half a mile from my house), and everyone got ready to leave.  I stumbled out of the bar with my friends (who were all walking home), pulled out my keys while evidently inebriated, and wished them all a goodnight.  They walked away and didn't bother taking my keys, or saying a single word about me driving.  I got in my car, started it, and then froze.  I was just about to drive shitfaced, and it didn't even occur to me that I was doing it.  I nearly had a heart-attack when I realized what I'd nearly done.  I have a family, for god's sake!  So I took my keys out of the ignition, locked it, and made the long trek home on foot in four inch heels.  It was worth it.  It was cold, so the walk sobered me, and it gave me a chance to reflect.  I was so used to playing "Mommy" to my friends that it never occured to me to ask the same of them.  I guarantee that before I go out with them again I'll be having a conversation with each of them involving them giving me the third degree before I drive home, and if need be, not allowing me to.  But honestly, they shouldn't have to.  I should be in control of myself enough at all times to make sure I don't act like that ever again.  After all, the only person you can truly rely on is yourself.  The only wisdom you'll ever really have is your own.  And on that night I nearly betrayed myself.  I'm sure it will happen in various ways many more times in my life, but I'll promise you this right now:  I learned my lesson, and it sure as hell won't happen for that reason EVER again.

I suppose it's that Superman feeling that you're talking about, Termyn8or.  Sure, you have it in youth.  (And you would be surprised at how little of that I have in me, youth that is, the same way I would be surprised how much I have.)  But you also have that invincible feeling from other things.  But, as with anything, you have to take responsibility for yourself, like you said.  I don't mean that you have to live paralyzed in fear of hurting anyone (which I did for quite some time), but you have to own your own actions.  You have to own your own life.  You also have to own that every single thing you do has repercussions.  They may not be serious, and if not, you're lucky.  But all actions have reactions.  ALL of them.  So, for the love of god people, stop and think before you do something that is even slightly questionable.

I'm rambling.  I suppose it's just because this hit so close to home.  I can't even properly express what I'm trying to say, and I think that's a first.




mgdartist -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/8/2006 4:01:34 AM)

quote:

"Actually, I love kids...but only if theyre barbequed just right"  W.C. Fields


Sigh, a parenting thread... I guess we should take our role as parents seriously. (not that I am one) It just always seems that when we do so, we often then take ourselves so very seriously. I DO grow ever so weary of watching so many (as in damn near all) parents have such rigid opinions and expertise borne of many years of experience times how ever many kids they raise. The person they once were vanishes and is replaced by this unbearably opinionated and most judgemental of all humans -- known as a "parent" (spoken in hushed and reverend tones) Few Have much idea what they are doing, and by the time their overindulged child/impending trainwreck reaches it's teens, they are little more than chauffuers, washwomen, cooks and lackeys, awaiting the next whim of their domineering offspring, wallet fulla cash at the ready, and credit cards tucked a little deeper, in case they suddenly need therapy or psychoanalysis, or have yet another sports injury. One wonders where all the money such therapies, and doctor visits recommended here comes from...oh thats right, do spare the rod, but spare them no expense.
quote:


"unchecked my behavior got worse and worse"


There the OP hit the proverbial nail on the head in a major way. The young (full grown man, goin on 9) 27 yr. old brat being discussed here, no doubt began his development as such over 20 years back, growing to the tune of yet another Mom who knew she could raise him, despite having little resources, time (always at work) and just too much resposibility it would have taken to do what task lay in front of her back then, as she lovingly thought not to become intolerant, or up the level of strictness on such a cute little boy, as since the divorce, she had so much less to offer him.....and godforfuckingbid he should ever need CP whatsoever...OMG!...do I advocate using violence on little children??  Goddamn right. ^This^, Vunder-parental units can easily happen if you don't. Of course nowadays, if you dont spare the rod, you'll often be visited by busybody social workers and police too busy to catch real criminals. It's simply a battle of wills, ad yours has to be ever alpha, and backed up with iron, if you're to raise good kids.

An old friend had a little girl as cute as could be, and by five was at that age where she doted on daddy and he doted back, and mommy was just..well, no longer welcome in their "clique". He took her everywhere, lest she pitch a hissy-fit, which meant anytime he came to visit, he'd be accompanied by a midget terrorist, whom, once in my home, became my responsibility...or somebodies, as it was an obvious chance for him to not have to keep an eye on "it" every second.
As we sat on the couch and tried to discuss important adult stuff, munchkin seemed quiet for a bit amazingly, totally captivated by my large aquarium with 3 very large Oscars swimming inside, who were yet eyeing her with apprehension. Chattering in unintelligible profundities, her enrapturement led to action, as any stupid adult could even see someone needed to, using outstretched arms, begin to slap that silly fishtank, hard enough to rock it on it's stand, and utterly scare the puddin' out of the fish, who reacted violently, and water splashed out  on the floor. My friend, didnt even seem to notice, and waited till her 2nd whack, seeing I was perturbed, give the Poison-Princess a half hearted "No, baby, don't do that now"
As we continued our discussion, he may as well have said "Kewl baby, whack that dumb tank more!" as thats precisely what she did. again....and again...and..., OK, fast forward till the end, after I'd counted
 
14 frickin' NO's!!

He would now resignedly attend to his daddyful duties, and drag her away from the tank and hold her saying, how she'd now have to be punished, to her enraged protests, had to hold her quite firmly as he gave her a very light, single caress-like swat on the back of her upper thigh. Despite his almost missing, she launched into the most anguished of shrieks and outraged sobs, and carried on pathetically bawling till ..well, I was beginning to become ..you'd have to know me in person to know how I get. By the time she began to quiet down, my ex-gf had stopped by, and took her off in another room to keep her occupied. As my friend began to take up where he left off, I guess he knew by the look on my face I wasn't listening anymore, although I knew he didn't take kindly to any kibitzing on his "expert" parenting.
"What's th matter with you now?" to which I quietly replied;
"Dude...14 fucking no's...I counted"
"OOOh, I guess you would have dealt with her differently....do tell, I can't wait to hear this one." he said sarcastically.
"Put it this way..." said I..."thirty minutes...all I'd need."
"30 minutes for what?" he retorted.
"30 minutes alone with that ...child" I said confidently, "and you nor any adult would never,
EVER need to say no to her more than once ever again."
"...No, I wouldn't lay a hand on her either" I quickly lied.
Anyway, a heated discussion ensued, which ended about 5 minutes later with me saying;
"Get your little hellspawn, and split, and don't you EVER bring her to my home again."
Sadly, we are no longer friends.

What I point at here is the lazy, over indulgent, over-tolerant parenting style prevalent now, and the seemingly blind parents who refuse to see what self-important little criminals their precious children are growing into thru their teens, till it's far too late.
Nonetheless, you're likely correctly thinking I'd yet visit worse than the OP did on this lardass punk who dared to punk out his mom..and are even wondering if I'd, were I given the option to punish him, incarcerate him or even bullwhip him in the barn.
...but you misjudge me, I'd never do anything like that to the kid... Were it up to me;


I'd have him shot at sunrise.





mistoferin -> RE: Morals without external influence (12/8/2006 6:15:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mgdartist
"30 minutes alone with that ...child" I said confidently, "and you nor any adult would never, EVER need to say no to her more than once ever again."


How are your parenting strategies/techniques working with your own children and what are their ages?

quote:

Sigh, a parenting thread... I guess we should take our role as parents seriously. (not that I am one)


Ahh....never mind....I understand completely now.





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