RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (Full Version)

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luckydog1 -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 10:57:12 AM)

It would be easier to convince people if you ( or Carter) cited actual examples.  And seriously the Camp David accord was Based on America garnuteeing Millitary aid to Isreal.  Carter signed a treaty that we would defend Isreal to the end, that is what the Camp David accords were/are.  Carter seems to have gone senile and doesn't even remember what his great "Peace Deal" was based on....Garunteed military aid, and security garuntees codified in a treaty(which is law that supercedes the constitution).  Now he complains about it...go figure

Seriously when did the Palestinians try peacefull means?  Pre Arafat?  It is ridicuous to just say "the internet".  you claim to know this...tell me



philosophy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 11:01:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Seriously when did the Palestinians try peacefull means?  Pre Arafat? 


........wouldn't it also be fair to ask the question, when did Israel try peaceful means also? .........bombing British soldiers in a hotel wasn't that peaceful. Neither is collective punishment, as evidenced by the bombing of Gaza's power infrastructure.



luckydog1 -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 11:10:16 AM)

The most ignored point about the Palestininas is that in 48 the area that was supposed to be thier state was invaded and stolen.  Not by Isreal, but by thier Arab Brothers...Jordan and Egypt, with the full support and backing of the Arab leauge.  every inch of Gaza, West Bank, Golan and East Jerusalem was held by other Arabs, again with the full support of the Arab Leauge.  From 48-72, all of Palestine was held by arabs.  Arab armies were in Jerusalem....No state was set up.  Lots of terrorist orgs were however.  They even fought each other constantly.  More Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinains thatn by Isreal.  Eventually the Terrorist with the backing of the USSR (arafat/PLO) won the street battles and siezed control (gun battles in refugee camps).  And killed anyone who opposed him. 



pahunkboy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 11:17:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Jimmy Carter was horrible at many aspects as a US president.


Yes, he was.  What leads you to this conclusion, however?

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

BUT he did arrange the camp david peace accords. Carter is very intelligent. Being that media has become a corporate mouthpiece- I find it refreshing that he cant be silenced.

His legacy post presdiency will go down in history as a big man.

Carter is a world class man.

If the truth is ugly- or his version of how he sees our world- so be it.



If you are looking for "truth", then Carter's book certainly doesn't contain it.  Unless you define "truth" as twisting the facts to fit your position and beliefs.

On a wider note, I see that Carter's failures as a President are the same failures (or faults) that will prevent him from becoming a "big man" or a "world class man" as you describe. 

Which is why I asked you why you thought his Presidency was a failure - because I see the same things that prevented him from being a successful President are the same things that will prevent him from being a successful "non-President".

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I seen the protestors on the news. I did not know they even read books. Those fools.


What?  Have I missed some earth-shattering, street mobs protesting Carter's book somewhere?

Or are you just talking generally about the communist-socialist-gaia-worshipping-trade bashing groups that fill the streets whenever there is a G8 meeting?

FirmKY



He was too honest. thats why. we had the worst recession in many years, mortgage rates 12% and then some.

IMO- both peoples are fringe lunitics. They antagonize eachother and play both sides against the middle.  Im surprised you think the book is full of lies. The jews treat the palistinians like dogs. Then the palestinians revolt- so then the jews can say- oh look how we are such victems.

Unless you or I walk a mile in the steps of these folks we are guessing.

Carter is an extreemly smart man.

This fight over that land has been for centuries. My god- get over it. There is more on earth then that broken down place.

When a minority is quick to balk about rights- I am suspicious. In some cases it is quite choriographed.

I am a product of the consumer society- spend- debt- consume.  Deeper thought spooks folkd from the malls.

An eye for an eye- leads to the entire village with no sight.....

BTW- NAFTA , GATT, Globalization are the robber barons of our day. I applaud THOSE protesters.




luckydog1 -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 11:21:32 AM)

Philosphy.  the one "terrorist act" that is cited at the Isrealis was against British soldiers, not Palestinian civilians.  More importantly they warned them and not a single person was hurt in the bombing of the King David Hotel, the hotel was evacuated.  It was a show of force.  Ireal has singed several treaties with thier nieghboors and the Palestinians, and they have obeyed them, that is an example of using peacefull means.  they have consistently all along.  Also Arab Muslims who stayed in Isreal have full rights, and sit in their parliment/hold offices.  There is another example of Isreal being peacefull.  When the arabs held the Dome/Wall Jews were not allowed to worship there, yet Isreal allows Muslims to worship there, another example of Isreal being Peacefull.  Isreal gave lands back to the Palestinians in Oslo/David 2, another example of Isreal acting peacefull.  Ireal has tried to negotiate Peace many times...the Gov of the Palestinians exists to destroy Isreal, not give a good life to the People of Palestine.



meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 12:04:28 PM)

I could google all night and post endless sources regarding Israeli acts of terrorism and oppression of the Palestinians. If you don't believe one source there are endless others. Read the Israeli papers, you will get a different perception but still the same info and stats at the heart of the reports.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=O'20061113&articleId=3834

http://rawstory.com/news/2006/More_Palestinian_deaths_reported_in_11032006.html

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20061129110857932

Check the stats. Even if you don't believe this site google another site you do believe, the stats are consistent.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp




philosophy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 12:24:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Ireal has singed several treaties with thier nieghboors and the Palestinians, and they have obeyed them, that is an example of using peacefull means.  they have consistently all along. 


........the evidence and history does not support this assertion. Has Israel signed up to the Geneva convention? Particulary the bit about not punishing civilian populations for military crimes. There was absolutely no point, militarily, to destroy Gaza's power generators. It was an act of terrorism, just as the kidnapping of the IDF soldier was. The point is, no possible solution can work if it does not condemn all such acts, Israeli and Palestinian. The problem is that the Western world seems content only to point to one  sides atrocities and not the others. Such hypocrisy will always be seized on by extremists as justification, and there is enough truth in it to convince others who otherwise would not condone terrorism.



Terri4Fun -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 1:17:36 PM)

In reply to Archer.

First:  Recall the USS Liberty.   Why did the Isreali's attack that American ship?  Release the tapes; that spy ship recorded the Isreali manipulation of the onset of the 6 Day War (which they were planning for ten years - since Eisenhower forced them to withdraw in 56).

Second:  When has Isreal ever kept itys word to the US? After Pollard remember the pledge to stop spying?  Yeah.   How about a American LtCol. in intelligence going AWOL when the heat was on and turning up in his "homeland" and stating that he just forgot to resign. 
That was weeks before 9/11.   Want a dozen more examples?   Let us trade instances of Americans caught stealing Isreali secrets or  American Jews selling out Isreal for the USA?   Got any?   One? 

more later, I've got a live to get on with ......



Archer -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 1:58:30 PM)

AH I see any anti Palistinian idea automaticly means I'm ignoring Isreals faults.

What a load of crap.

I'm working from pragmatism here the idea that fully right can be found anywhere in the region is beyond logical thought.
Has Isreal done some terrible things? Sure they have surounded, hyper paranoid about genocide, I think it would be pretty tough not to react with beyond what folks without that history would consider reasonable force.

Playing the victim card I think centuries of persecution trump a couple decades.

Bottom line given the conditions they face Isreal is fighting for survival against forces that outnumber them by a huge margin for the first 40 years of their existance. Funny that those the Palistinians view as allies are the countries that wouldnt let them in but would fund their fight to kick Isreal out. I think the fact that they were the underdog and fought off and beat the combined forces they faced gave them place in the hearts of the US society beyond the sympathy already there based on the guilt of not acknowledging what was happening for so long during WWII.

But sure they have done some stuff that viewed in the light of reason when there is no personal fear of being wiped off the earth, is deplorable.














mgdartist -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 2:16:31 PM)

wow, these points i'd as yet not considered.
unassailable logic.
props to you archer.



luckydog1 -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 2:50:15 PM)

Evidence and history shows that Isreal, if it wanted to could, could commit genocide of the Palestinains and thier arab neighboors in one afternoon.  No one could stop them, and if Iran or anyone had a problem thier cities could go "poof".  They have had this capability for at least 30 years.  It is clearly not Isreal's intent to destroy the Palestinians, yet it is the stated goal of the Palestinian leadership(and has been since the 60's witht he founding of the PLO/Araft) , and several other regional states, to destroy Isreal.  A Power Generator that is used for CCC purposes is most certainly a military target.  How does grabbing a draftee affect the ability of a military to function?  It is not Isreal's fault that Hamas hides behind civilians to operate, that is clearly against Geneva also.  The entire methodology of terrorism is against Geneva.  evidence and History is clear indeed here.  When Isreal makes a treaty they comply, as long as the other side does also.  Thier dealings with Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and a few of the smaller states shows this.  In Oslo/David 2 Isreal made real concessions on the ground/ceded actuall territory, and got war in return.  And Yes people get hurt when Isreal defends itself.  Palestininas should stop firing rockets and suicide bombers, and begin asking why Araft's familly and cronies are billionaires while they die of hunger in Gaza...



meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 2:57:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

AH I see any anti Palistinian idea automaticly means I'm ignoring Isreals faults.

What a load of crap.

I'm working from pragmatism here the idea that fully right can be found anywhere in the region is beyond logical thought.
Has Isreal done some terrible things? Sure they have surounded, hyper paranoid about genocide, I think it would be pretty tough not to react with beyond what folks without that history would consider reasonable force.

Playing the victim card I think centuries of persecution trump a couple decades.

Bottom line given the conditions they face Isreal is fighting for survival against forces that outnumber them by a huge margin for the first 40 years of their existance. Funny that those the Palistinians view as allies are the countries that wouldnt let them in but would fund their fight to kick Isreal out. I think the fact that they were the underdog and fought off and beat the combined forces they faced gave them place in the hearts of the US society beyond the sympathy already there based on the guilt of not acknowledging what was happening for so long during WWII.

But sure they have done some stuff that viewed in the light of reason when there is no personal fear of being wiped off the earth, is deplorable.



Israel is not fighting for survival. The US and west has assured Israel of survival. The Israeli military is a s big as a large European country's military and could destroy every other military within its viciinity. All supplied and paid for by the USA. Israel doesn't stand alone.

The fact that Arabs kicked out Jews is a crime commited by those Arab countries and not by the Palestinians. The Palestinians were subject to crimes commited at the inception of Israel. Since when is it a crime to be related to a criminal?

The terrorists that set up Israel were not underdogs. They were a heaviliy armed militia ethnically cleansing an unarmed Arab population. Many of the Israeli army were well armed veterans of the British and other armies against poorly equiped Arab armies. Plucky Israel has been a propaganda ruse by the west for western interests.

Follow any ethnic group over a couple of thousand years and you could write a history of persecution. Let's start off with the Britons. Conquered by the Romans, ethnically cleansed by the Anglo-Saxons, conquered and subjugated by the Normans. Lands conficated by the British elite and driven out of their homelands. Treated as second class citizens by the French. Subject to famine caused by gross misrule.

The holocaust has no equivalent and stands alone but most of the Israelis that use the holocaust as an excuse for subjugating the Palestinians don't appear to be surviving European Jews or their descendents but Jews from other middle eastern countries.

Oh and don't forget. Plucky little Israel is a nuclear power. Hardly the credentials of an underdog without friends and alies willing to secure its existence.



MasterKalif -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 3:07:43 PM)

I dislike Carter because as a US president he was weak....perhaps the weakest of them all in my personal opinion. He meant well though. As an example I can site how there was that botched rescue operation regarding PLO terrorists (back in the 70's not the PLO of today) hijacking a plane and taking it to Entebbe Airport in Uganda, protected by dictator Idi Amin Dadda. The US failed, and the Israelis (to their credit) did a good job and rescued the passengers. Furthermore, Carter was unwilling or unable to protect American allies such as H.I.M. the Shah of Iran and thanks to his inaction (in part) Iran today is a hotbed of fundamentalism.

On a positive note (not all is negative, eh?) I give Carter a lot of credit for writing this book, knowing how pro-Israeli the US is....its almost to the point that even on this board, one asks themselves if they are talking to American citizens or Israeli citizens....one thing is to admire Israel and their technological/agro-industrial achievements, quite another to try to say that Israel is great and has done no wrong.

Israel has violated several UN resolutions, and has not signed the geneva convention....the blatant disregard for human rights not so much of Palestinians, but more recently of Lebanese civilians...if it wasn't for American support, Israel today would be simply a rogue state like South Africa was in its day under apartheid.

Thank Mr. Carter for this book! Will be sure to buy it.



meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 3:19:38 PM)

Israeli agricultural achievements are the product of stolen water and is living on borrowed time because the water table is lowering to a dangerous degree and rivers are running dry. It has long been predicted water will be the issue over the next conflageration in the middle east and not oil as each country preserves its water because Israel is using so much. Israelis use four times as much water as Palestinians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/764142.stm

http://www.waronwant.org/Crime+in+the+Valley:+Life+on+the+Other+Side+of+Palestine++12545.twl



MasterKalif -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 3:22:42 PM)

meatcleaver, I agree but did not want to sidetrack from the main topic....I agree that the technical achievements have been mostly stolen technology, which is a no brainer, and then some modifications here and there. My point is more on the agriculture, they have done well in that score, however it is true that probably the Palestinians are left with less water (hmmm...does not surprise me).



FirmhandKY -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 3:39:52 PM)

Back to Carter's book ...

I'd bet no one here has read the book he just published yet.  It's in the news primarily because of the resignation and protest of The Carter Center's main intellectual and expert on the Middle East, who resigned in protest over the inaccuracies, false information, confabulated details and supposed plagiarism contained in the book.

He has no political ax to grind.  He has supported Carter for years, and co-authored an earlier book with him.

My point is, regardless of what your beliefs are about who is "worse" (Israel or the Palestinians), Carter's book doesn't do any favors to anyone who actually is interested in the truth.

Carter has slipped over from a "thoughtful, principled man", to partisan fanatic, is the point.  Many people have believed this for years, but this book is the proof to any rational person.

FirmKY



LTRsubNW -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 4:02:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I seen a news peice where jewish guards stand on residential roof tops. a jew has nice swimming poo- the neighbor a palezstinian get barely a trickle of the water.

IMO- both groups are radical. They need to get along better.  I sold gas to both hardcore persons. They were so sure they were being screwed. Im like pay your tab and get out.

Jimmy Carter was horrible at many aspects as a US president. BUT he did arrange the camp david peace accords. Carter is very intelligent. Being that media has become a corporate mouthpiece- I find it refreshing that he cant be silenced.

His legacy post presdiency will go down in history as a big man.

I seen the protestors on the news. I did not know they even read books. Those fools.

Carter is a world class man.

If the truth is ugly- or his version of how he sees our world- so be it.


I expected to see a lot more Carter bashing.  It's easy.  He has the bumper stickers.

He was a good man, not a great President.  Had he had another Presidency, I believe he would have shown his stuff.

Thankfully for him, not so for us....in short order there will be another bumper sticker...."Carter was the second worst President".



Mercnbeth -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/13/2006 4:27:15 PM)

quote:

I expected to see a lot more Carter bashing.

LTR sub,
Maybe not under the definition of "bashing" just memory.

My image of Carter was generated from the talks he gave at the time. He is the image of impotent leadership. He told us what we couldn't do or expect any longer. We shouldn't expect gas to be at gas stations. We shouldn't expect to drive more than 55 MPH. We couldn't do anything about the USSR invading Afghanistan.

But my personal favorite was his talk from the Oval Office regarding the energy crisis and people not being able to get heating oil. His solution - wear a sweater. Of course he took his own advise and in doing so appeared looking like a cross between Mr. Rogers and Garrison Keeler. He is the father of the ongoing US failure regarding the middle east and lack of foresight from the original Camp David accord to facilitating the removal of the Shah without considering the the regime that would replace him. He allowed a group of "students" to kidnap and hold hostages for 444 days. He approved a military 'rescue' dooming it to fail by requiring that ALL branches of the service play a role; sending men and equipment into a area neither they or their equipment were designed to handle.

But we should point out where he did illustrate US might - he did stop our athletes from competing in the Moscow Olympics.

quote:

Had he had another Presidency, I believe he would have shown his stuff.
Do you mean he would have suggested a scarf to go with the sweater?



meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/14/2006 2:47:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I expected to see a lot more Carter bashing.

LTR sub,
Maybe not under the definition of "bashing" just memory.

My image of Carter was generated from the talks he gave at the time. He is the image of impotent leadership. He told us what we couldn't do or expect any longer. We shouldn't expect gas to be at gas stations. We shouldn't expect to drive more than 55 MPH. We couldn't do anything about the USSR invading Afghanistan.

But my personal favorite was his talk from the Oval Office regarding the energy crisis and people not being able to get heating oil. His solution - wear a sweater. Of course he took his own advise and in doing so appeared looking like a cross between Mr. Rogers and Garrison Keeler. He is the father of the ongoing US failure regarding the middle east and lack of foresight from the original Camp David accord to facilitating the removal of the Shah without considering the the regime that would replace him. He allowed a group of "students" to kidnap and hold hostages for 444 days. He approved a military 'rescue' dooming it to fail by requiring that ALL branches of the service play a role; sending men and equipment into a area neither they or their equipment were designed to handle.

But we should point out where he did illustrate US might - he did stop our athletes from competing in the Moscow Olympics.

quote:

Had he had another Presidency, I believe he would have shown his stuff.
Do you mean he would have suggested a scarf to go with the sweater?


Carter couldn't have done anything about the Iranian revolution, presidents before him had done all the damage with their unqualified support for a violent repressive dictatorship. By the time Carter was in power, Iranians had made up their minds as to what America was. He couldn't have done anything about a bunch of students holding American hostages. Reagan didn't do anything either, the Iranians just decided to release them.

As for Carter approving a rescue that was doomed to failure, not being a military man he would have taken advice from the military. The failure of the rescue and if it was doomed to failure and had no chance of succeeeding, while the buck stops with the President, the responsibility was the military who advised him and their heads should have rolled.

The US couldn't do anything about the USSR invading Afghanistan, anymore than the USSR could stop the US invasion of Vietnam. The ill thought out interference by the US in Afghanistan was what indirectly led to 9/11. Afghanistan is a failed state while Vietnam is prospering. It appears that the USSR got that one right. Though of course things aren't that simple and blaming Carter for past US policies that created the situations he inherited is a nonsense and a refusal to look at the real culprits for the dilemmas the US finds itself in.



LTRsubNW -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/14/2006 5:33:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I expected to see a lot more Carter bashing.

LTR sub,
Maybe not under the definition of "bashing" just memory.

My image of Carter was generated from the talks he gave at the time. He is the image of impotent leadership. He told us what we couldn't do or expect any longer. We shouldn't expect gas to be at gas stations. We shouldn't expect to drive more than 55 MPH. We couldn't do anything about the USSR invading Afghanistan.

But my personal favorite was his talk from the Oval Office regarding the energy crisis and people not being able to get heating oil. His solution - wear a sweater. Of course he took his own advise and in doing so appeared looking like a cross between Mr. Rogers and Garrison Keeler. He is the father of the ongoing US failure regarding the middle east and lack of foresight from the original Camp David accord to facilitating the removal of the Shah without considering the the regime that would replace him. He allowed a group of "students" to kidnap and hold hostages for 444 days. He approved a military 'rescue' dooming it to fail by requiring that ALL branches of the service play a role; sending men and equipment into a area neither they or their equipment were designed to handle.

But we should point out where he did illustrate US might - he did stop our athletes from competing in the Moscow Olympics.

quote:

Had he had another Presidency, I believe he would have shown his stuff.
Do you mean he would have suggested a scarf to go with the sweater?


I'm not a big fan of Carters, but the sweater thing is often brought up as a glaring example of his inneffectualness.

The truth is, he was one of the first Presidents to basically say "we're hooked...we need to get off our fix".

Wearing a sweater (a no to low cost alternative to turning up the heat) was a smart approach to the problem, but not one that went over well with Americans who believed (and still believe) that they have some kind of God given right to energy.

What he was effectively saying was "hey folks, guess what?  They own all the oil...we don't.  You can keep turning up the dial, but you know...if you do, we'll just keep sticking that needle in our arm and the next time it'll just be all the harder (and more expensive) to get off the juice".

He was saying essentially, "try a smaller car, drive less often.  Just because you can, hardly means you should...and every day you opt for the more expensive (and imported) solution, means we're that much more beholding to those who have the noose already tightened".

I'm sure he could have used a better example, possibly offered new federal incentives for insulating our homes, but he was a child of the depression and he opted for a solution that everyone had the financial ability to consider.

A sweater.

Hmmmm....lemme think....15 grand to reinsulate my home, or....a sweater that I probably have in my closet.  

He was hardly a boob for recommending a way for us to at least start thinking about what, 30 years later became obvious to everyone:  We're junkies, we don't "deserve" energy, and we needed to become better stewards of our own future.

Again, he wasn't the best example of the Presidency, but I think current events show quite well, he certainly wasn't the worst.



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