RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem

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LTRsubNW -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/14/2006 4:25:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Surely a politician's reputation is decided on a large amount of luck. I'd say it is how they handled opportunity. President Reagan used it to his advantage. President Reagan was more rhetoric than substance, but in that era it was all that was necessary. He also surrounded himself with very ambitious, smart men with egos. Anyone remember the "I am in charge!" cry of Alex Haig? His administration was more of a success than he was personally. His lack of attention to detail and, in his second term, his mental deficiencies left us with a figurehead leader more than a leader. His second term was where most of the business / government corruption was born. If more capable or he wasn't shot would it have made a difference? Perhaps. I think his 'bravado' and camera skills did influence the Iranians, but there is no way to know for sure. As I said, I'd lean to a hatred of Carter as the most influential reason for the release on inauguration day. Reagan's influence, even at 1%, was contributory. Nicely put.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/14/2006 5:21:14 PM)
Regarding the creativity of the US Meatcleaver could have also pointed out that of the many things developed by teams in the US those teams were lead by recent European emigres. One major example is the Image Orthicon tube that is scanned and was the basis of all early TV cameras. Tho' developed by RCA the team leader was Russian. Then the Brits GAVE the Yanks the magnetron which is the innovation that allowed the rapid development of RADAR. The Brits also gave the Yanks the results of the metal fatigue investigations when the FIRST jet passenger airliner built in the UK developed the unfortunate tendency to break up in mid air. Not sure we didn't teach you how to play baseball too. We call it Rounders ! Bloodie 'ell forgot all about the Jet Engine. Lots of info. was transferred to the US. Who would believe that then !

LTRsubNW -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/14/2006 5:35:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Regarding the creativity of the US Meatcleaver could have also pointed out that of the many things developed by teams in the US those teams were lead by recent European emigres. One major example is the Image Orthicon tube that is scanned and was the basis of all early TV cameras. Tho' developed by RCA the team leader was Russian. Then the Brits GAVE the Yanks the magnetron which is the innovation that allowed the rapid development of RADAR. The Brits also gave the Yanks the results of the metal fatigue investigations when the FIRST jet passenger airliner built in the UK developed the unfortunate tendency to break up in mid air. Not sure we didn't teach you how to play baseball too. We call it Rounders ! Bloodie 'ell forgot all about the Jet Engine. Lots of info. was transferred to the US. Who would believe that then ! Yeah well...thank goodness we got better press.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/14/2006 6:36:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver No. How can one debate if there are no criteria in which to debate? Philosophy. Compare European philosophers to American Composers. Compare. Artists. Compare. Writers. Compare. Scientists. Compare and this is one where the US can produce a sustained challenge. Theologians. Compare (Though I have little interest in this being an atheist) Good starting point. This is what I was allowing you to do in the first place - set the terms of the debate to what you considered most favorable to you. My terms were "dynamic and inventive". My meaning is that, as a society, certain nations seem to achieve a higher level of creativity and better use of human and natural resources than others. Since, to a large extent, we have a global culture, there are some similiarities across the world, and definitely some sharing and cross-fertilization of ideas and concepts. And people. I really don't care what indices you use, by most any measure, the American civilization, as the current leader of the Western world, and most of the rest of the world's civilizations is the leader because it generally has a society that encourages dynamic and inventive people. Does that mean it's number one in all areas? No. Does that mean it's the only civilization that can be dynamic or creative? No. Does that mean that I'm only talking of "native" Americans? No. What are the reasons that the US is called a "super-power"? Simply military muscle? Not hardly. It's also because of the cultural, artistic, economic and scientific "muscle" that it has. Certainly, it draws from other nations, societies and civilizations across the world. The "brain drain" to the US is a well recognized and often times hated part of the American presence across the globe. What draws the "best and the brightest" to the US? How and why does our system do this? As to your specific list: Philosophy. Compare European philosophers to American. Hmm, I think the founding fathers theories of governance should qualify as a major addition to the world of philosophy, although it certainly had its roots in European thought. But, ever since 1776, the major philosophy that has had the most important impact on people's lives would seem to be limited government, and representative democracy of some sort. Oh, and you can google "American Philosophy" and discover that there is an entire field of study just for this one society. Perhaps there are for other nations as well, but I'd wager that there aren't all that many. Composers. Music? Listen to any American music today, meatcleaver? Can you name any American rock bands that write their own stuff? Or perhaps you only consider classical music writers as "composers"? The Beatles were an English group ... but where did they go, to achieve the highest success? I consider that a plus for my side of the argument. Artists. You tell me. I'm not really an "artesy" type. Writers. I didn't look, but I suspect that the US either has more writers, or authors than any other nation. It certainly has some of the most successful. What percentage of books are published first in English? In the US? Scientists. Compare and this is one where the US can produce a sustained challenge. Actually, I disagree with you. A large percentage of "our" scientist are foreign born, or first generation immigrants. But ... our society accepts them, rewards them, and so I claim them as our own. Theologians. I suspect that the US has more theologians per capita than any other nation on the face of the planet. What's your point? FirmKY

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 1:29:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Philosophy. Compare European philosophers to American. Hmm, I think the founding fathers theories of governance should qualify as a major addition to the world of philosophy, although it certainly had its roots in European thought. But, ever since 1776, the major philosophy that has had the most important impact on people's lives would seem to be limited government, and representative democracy of some sort. Oh, and you can google "American Philosophy" and discover that there is an entire field of study just for this one society. Perhaps there are for other nations as well, but I'd wager that there aren't all that many. America is the only major western country that hasn't created a school of philosophy. The founding fathers were a mirror image of the Parliamentarians in London which is precisely why 50% of the British Parliament thought the colonial elite (or at least the rebelious part) were right. However, much of the philosophy spouted in the rebelion had been said almost 100 years before by the Levellers, the Ranters and the Quakers in the English Civil War. Tom Paine who was English, formulated much existing thought into something more coherent and went round like a door to door salesman selling his ideas which suited the colonial elite at time so they bought it for convenience. It's no surprise that Tom Paine landed back in England after the founding fathers had no more need for such philosophy. The American constitution being very conservative and the reason it has survived to this day but it never gave the majority of colonists anything they didn't have under the British and probably took somethings away. It could be argued that the Empire Loyalists who fled to Canada after the end of the war of Independence had more freedom there than their fellow compatriots they left behind under the new regime. The Americans aren't alone in claiming to have created modern democracy, the French do too but the British were already more democratic before both of them. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Composers. Music? Listen to any American music today, meatcleaver? Can you name any American rock bands that write their own stuff? Or perhaps you only consider classical music writers as "composers"? The Beatles were an English group ... but where did they go, to achieve the highest success? I consider that a plus for my side of the argument. I only have to list the Europeans, post the formation of the USA. Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Schubert, Liszt, Schoenberg, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov. This is pointless, I'm not even trying and it is a little unfair because the USA really only came into its own culturally in the 20th century. As for popular music it is difficult to compare. Many American artists you would consider good in America don't make a ripple in Europe and vice-versa. There are the obvious stars such as Dylan and the Beatles etc that break down all borders but they are quite few. The English speaking world and America inparticular is quite insular in regard to music. Just sat here and listening to the radio there has been in the last 30 minutes French, Dutch,German and English artists on the radio. If I was sat in Britain or the US I bet I wouldn't hear a song in another language. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Artists. You tell me. I'm not really an "artesy" type. Again I could make an endless list but the same applies, the USA only came into its own culturally in the 2nd half of the 20th century and then many prominent artists were European born. Again I could make an endless list but the same applies, the USA only came into its own culturally in the 2nd half of the 20th century and then many prominent artists were European born. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Writers. I didn't look, but I suspect that the US either has more writers, or authors than any other nation. It certainly has some of the most successful. What percentage of books are published first in English? In the US? We are comparing Europe with the USA, not a particular country with the USA. As for most authors from one country that are worth reading (I know, subjective) that is difficult but I would put my money on Russia if I had to. I actually like American literature and have shelvesfull of it but it is literature with one world vision unlike Europe which has a host of different visions with so various socio-political, cultural and artistic visions because it has so many languages and inevitably sub-cultures because of that. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Theologians. I suspect that the US has more theologians per capita than any other nation on the face of the planet. What's your point? I thought Theology came under culture and would be all part of a dynamic culture, like it or not. Got to get some work done. Back later.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 1:53:41 AM)
To support the other side of the coin I think that the underlying point that Firmhand is making is true. That is that America IS a more dynamic society than say the UK. The basic reason as I see it is that the stultifying class system does not exist there. Not that there isn't a class system but that it more open and fluid than in the UK and most important the condescending attitude to Trade and Commerce does not exist to anything like the same extent. A trivial example being jumped up two bit actors/actresses in the UK who thought that being involved in advertising was beneath them. Admittedly this has changed. It has been well said that an Englishman only has to open his mouth and say something and immediately another Englishman will despise him. Mind you some of the UK accents are pretty grim to listen to, as is ultra "plummy" accent of our Royal family. As for consumption and Global warming, is it proven what is the real cause ? Not yet I think. I also think that Meatcleaver exhibits a blind Anti American prejudice. The Europeans made a good job of screwing things up long before the Yanks became the world power.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 2:00:16 AM)
Meatcleaver says that many of the ideas underlying the American revolution derived from those expressed in the UK about the time of our Civil War, the point is tho' that those ideas took root in the US whereas we had reverted back to an ossified class based monarchy. The Brits and I believe the French wanted to kill Tom Paine ! Incidently, I bet the ideas go back much further that the 17th century. With regard to popular American or Hollywood film music, which certainly did reach a very high level indeed , I mean from the 1900's to say the 1950's , once again many of the composers were first/second generation immigrants to the USA., from where......Europe ! Still you had Elvis lol !

MasterKalif -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 2:34:59 AM)
hate to bring it back to Carter, but I disagree with those who state that Carter did in no way contribute to the Iranian Islamic revolution; by his inaction and ineffectiveness, as well as by his publicly decrying human rights abuses of the Shah's Imperial regime, he was publicly stating that the US was in favor of him being deposed....this in turn emboldened the radical Iranian revolutionaries....the US should have backed the Shah until the last day in my opinion.

MasterKalif -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 2:38:47 AM)
meatcleaver, I fail to understand how after American indpendence was achieved, the UK had more freedom, specially when at the beginning you stated that the colonial revolutionaries were conservatives and that parliament in London approved of their ideas by and large....and likewise, the American system grew out of the British parliamentarian system (which took hundreds of years to develop even by 1789, being traceable to the Magna Carta)..... Also food for thought...while the United States has profitted by being a more "open" society (specially to new ideas) there is case that scientific and other development has ocurred in close systems, evidence of this happened in Nazi Germany and in the USSR, particularly during wartime...perhaps these are short lived in closed societies?

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 3:17:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Meatcleaver says that many of the ideas underlying the American revolution derived from those expressed in the UK about the time of our Civil War, the point is tho' that those ideas took root in the US whereas we had reverted back to an ossified class based monarchy. The Brits and I believe the French wanted to kill Tom Paine ! Paine died derided and abandoned in New York. His philosophy was politically convenient to the rebelious colonial elite who never enacted them when they got power. As for Britain having an ossified monarchy that is not true. George III had very little power, the power lay in the hands of Parliament which at the time was the most democratic in the world and even more democratic than the new USA's democracy. Britain went through a little retrenchment during the French revolution in fear of it spreading but no more so than Bush's Patriot act now.

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 3:25:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif meatcleaver, I fail to understand how after American indpendence was achieved, the UK had more freedom, specially when at the beginning you stated that the colonial revolutionaries were conservatives and that parliament in London approved of their ideas by and large....and likewise, the American system grew out of the British parliamentarian system (which took hundreds of years to develop even by 1789, being traceable to the Magna Carta)..... Britain was a Parliamentary democracy before the revolution and after it. It was the losing of the colonies that set Britain on a course of unhindered liberalism and laissez faire economics that built the empire, based on the rights of the individual. Basically the rights of the individual to exploit any damn person they wanted. That was a result of trying to do the right thing in the colonies (all of which had democratic legislators under Britain) and it proving to be the wrong thing. As was Britians unfettered individualism that allowed exploitation so is the USA's today (and to a lesser extent Europe which has more regulation due it it having rejected unfettered individualism.)

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 3:34:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave The basic reason as I see it is that the stultifying class system does not exist there. Not that there isn't a class system but that it more open and fluid than in the UK and most important the condescending attitude to Trade and Commerce does not exist to anything like the same extent. A trivial example being jumped up two bit actors/actresses in the UK who thought that being involved in advertising was beneath them. Admittedly this has changed. Actually American society is not more fluid than European society. There was a study by OECD (I think) reported on the BBC World Service stating that access to education was what made societies more fluid and access to education was more accessible to European poor than American poor and figures were reported bearing this out. Poor Americans were more likely to be as poor or poorer than their parents than western Europeans. I'll have to try and find the report later when I can take more time from work. EDIT - I think this is the report talked about on the BBC. I could be wrong as I've just quicly skimmed through it. Got to go and work. However, Britain and the US perform crap in it and are far behind the European Social model when it comes to social mobility. http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:D9ecUY1E1qgJ:www.oecd.org/dataoecd/13/60/36165298.pdf+OECD+%2B+%27social+mobility%27&hl=nl&gl=nl&ct=clnk&cd=1

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 4:01:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave I also think that Meatcleaver exhibits a blind Anti American prejudice. The Europeans made a good job of screwing things up long before the Yanks became the world power. Seeks. If you read the thread you will find it was FirmandKY that wanted this debate not me. I said there is really no way of comparing but FirmandKY suggested I was scared of such a debate. So I'm rising to the bait, not showing anti-American prejudice. Americans play to win, why not Europeans?[;)]

seeksfemslave -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 5:29:37 AM)
Tho' going wildly off thread the idea of "play to win" is a good one. Just listening to a debate on the so called immorality of slush funds used to obtain contracts for fighter aircraft sold to Saudi Arabia. Some sectors of Brit society are so naive, that is another reason we are in such a mess. Incidentally the contracts are worth at least 1.5 billion and probably half as much again for spares/maintenance, so we haven't got much to lose have we ? British parliamentary democracy in the 17th century, hardly anyone could vote ! Education is most often an entree into the useless bureaucratic jobs offered by our useless administrative elite. My experience tells me that the Yanks are less deferential and more driven to succeed than most Brits.Here the attitude is either... My problems are caused by somebody else or Give us a handout.

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 5:44:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave British parliamentary democracy in the 17th century, hardly anyone could vote ! And just how many people do you think could vote in the newly declared USA? Not a greater percentage than could vote for the British Parliament of the period. quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave My experience tells me that the Yanks are less deferential and more driven to succeed than most Brits.Here the attitude is either... Have you watched the Senate Committee hearings and the Parliamentary Committee hearings? If not, watch them, you will then see who is deferential or not. Come on Gorgeous George!

Mercnbeth -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 5:58:38 AM)
Would like to interject a question here. Somebody brought up the more formal and border defined class structure in Europe and the UK. I don't know if that is as restricting to upward mobility as it once was. However, what about the income tax structure. I've a few business associates from that side of the pond and they claimed that there was a disincentive to earn because at some income levels the tax rate was over 80%. The trade off, now this was from a guy who relocated from France, was that you had a job for life, and get massive amounts of annual vacations compared to the US. Interestingly though, these 'A' type personalities didn't see this as positive. It made their companies not as competitive as those based in the US. I know you guys are getting into the history and debating who invented what first, but success isn't dependent solely on invention. Ford didn't invent the auto, but he manufactured it and marketed it better than anyone previously. Hershey didn't invent chocolate. The question is does the US market and it's capitalistic economic 'god', the almighty dollar, the reason for US success? Compare it to the state of US manufacturing. Employee pricing has made it impossible to compete with the Japan to the point that no TV is manufactured in the US. It doesn't mean we can't or don't have the technology, but there aren't the same opportunities in the US for electronics manufacturers that there are there.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 6:04:34 AM)
Good point about invention and success MandB. Mass production and the wealth that flowed from it is a good example of American ingenuity. First applied to one of your favourite toys, the revolver I believe. lol

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 6:20:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Would like to interject a question here. Somebody brought up the more formal and border defined class structure in Europe and the UK. I don't know if that is as restricting to upward mobility as it once was. However, what about the income tax structure. I've a few business associates from that side of the pond and they claimed that there was a disincentive to earn because at some income levels the tax rate was over 80%. The trade off, now this was from a guy who relocated from France, was that you had a job for life, and get massive amounts of annual vacations compared to the US. Interestingly though, these 'A' type personalities didn't see this as positive. It made their companies not as competitive as those based in the US. If I was worried about tax being high in the UK I wouldn't go to France. French companies move to Britain because of lower corporate tax, less personal tax and lower social security contributions. That said, I have lived in France and the UK of course and life in France is far superior to the UK, at least in my eyes. Though if you are a full red blooded capitalist I doubt you would see it that way. At the moment the highest personal tax rate in the UK is 40% which is similar to most European countries. However, corporate tax and social payments (which are effectively taxes) vary considerably. I think UK corporate tax is 40% while for many countries in the EU such as France, Spain, Denmark and I think Germany, it is around 60%. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth I know you guys are getting into the history and debating who invented what first, but success isn't dependent solely on invention. Ford didn't invent the auto, but he manufactured it and marketed it better than anyone previously. Hershey didn't invent chocolate. The question is does the US market and it's capitalistic economic 'god', the almighty dollar, the reason for US success? I'll concede to you Americans here Merc. Anyone who can brand sugar water and create a corporation from it by selling it to the world deserves some credit. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Compare it to the state of US manufacturing. Employee pricing has made it impossible to compete with the Japan to the point that no TV is manufactured in the US. It doesn't mean we can't or don't have the technology, but there aren't the same opportunities in the US for electronics manufacturers that there are there. Isn' this where the dynamism comes in? When products become cheaper to make elsewhere, new products have to be created. Hence economies like the US shouldn't be worried about manufacturing production moving to third world countries but should be concerned with producing new hi-tech products and services that the rest of the world wants. Many times the US has been compared as Rome to Europe's Greece. Superficially I think that is true. Rome far exceeded Greece economically and militarily and inovatively such as its engineering but it never surpassed Greece's artistic and cultural achievements. That could cause a mini storm. You could even take it further. Greece was a series of small warring states while Rome was a huge unitary state.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 7:53:45 AM)
To give the Yanks something to cheer aboutI believe that many of the modern automatic machine tools originated there. These machines had a super colossal effect on real wealth production. I do not know who setup the firms that made these machines. Europeans lol ? Talk about fast selling practices, how about Thatcher selling off to the public that which they already owned. I mean privatisation. Good trick that was !

pahunkboy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 9:37:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Well in the couple of hundred years you talk about, Britain was the most dynamic and inventive society. Remember the industrial revolution and the empire? Every country eventually has to adjust to reality. America's energy addiction will sooner or later have to stop. So far new technology to replace carbon based fuels seem to be wishful thinking. It's a case of jumping off a ten story building and still saying you are OK as you pass the sixth floor window. America is frivolous and decadent in regard to energy and a world pariah. It not only needs to change, for its own sake it will have to change sooner or later. Global warming won't stop at the US's border. solar was declared dead in the 80s. you bring up a good point on your post. running my household here- it is cheaper for me to choose traditional energy, then solar or wind. the US as a whole needs to come down a notch on our arrogance....its ok to be proud...but to shut out any new idea will doom this culture in time.' i was just thinking how war produces amzing art and teck. so where is it? global warming- the phraze is all wrong. it is packaged the wrong way to buy this theory. acid rain, smog run amuck is a better description of it. acid rain fades the paint off of cars- nothing like you seen in the 60s. you should see the big push to outlaw wind turbines in towns here!! it boggles the mind.

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