RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem

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pahunkboy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 9:42:48 AM)
Who can forget Carter in his sweater by the fireplace and his chat with us? Hey he tried. Think on this- in the 70s steaL a color tv set - go to jail. 2006, improperly dispose of electronic garbage, [same tv set] - go to jail hmmm- what a gluttunous people we are. [gluttony doesnt stop at the border either] lol

FirmhandKY -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 10:53:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Seeks. If you read the thread you will find it was FirmandKY that wanted this debate not me. I said there is really no way of comparing but FirmandKY suggested I was scared of such a debate. So I'm rising to the bait, not showing anti-American prejudice. Americans play to win, why not Europeans?[;)] meatcleaver, I enjoy a hearty debate. And so far, we've been able to talk, discuss and debate without animosity, which makes it a rare occurence on CM when you get into these subjects. I respect that you have an opinion, and that you have your reasons, desires and goals. We don't have to agree with each other about them, and I certainly welcome it when someone may point out a flaw in my reasoning as long as it's is done in a generally respectful manner to me personally. But, I feel that you are missing my point entirely about a "dynamic and inventive" society. I make a point, and when you respond to it, it seems as if you didn't read what I wrote at all, but you respond to what you think I wrote. And example is the comparison between "composers". I specifically addressed (and asked) whether you meant classical musical composers or did "pop culture" music composers count? You didn't really respond to this point, but in your answer you listed on classical composers. While the ones you listed all existed, and were not American, it is a very restricted list in the complete pantheon of "composers". Another example is your use of a longer time frame, when you specifically made me reduce my "last two hundred years" to some lesser period of time. Another example is your failure to appreciate that I made it clear several times that I was giving all due homage to other cultures and societies. I wasn't trying to make any sort of argument that only Americans invented or thought of everything. I was making the point that the American society and culture seems to be exceptionally able to integrate anyone's ideas, and allows good ones to survive and flourish, thereby increasing all mankinds store of knowledge, cultural knowledge and diversity. And that, overall, it seems to do so better than most other societies and cultures - in general, if not in each specific case. Of course, the flip side is that sometimes some really bad things come for the opportunity for diversity and inventivness. Being "dynamic and inventive" doesn't necessarily always lead to "good things". FirmKY

MasterKalif -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 11:17:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Britain was a Parliamentary democracy before the revolution and after it. It was the losing of the colonies that set Britain on a course of unhindered liberalism and laissez faire economics that built the empire, based on the rights of the individual. Basically the rights of the individual to exploit any damn person they wanted. That was a result of trying to do the right thing in the colonies (all of which had democratic legislators under Britain) and it proving to be the wrong thing. As was Britians unfettered individualism that allowed exploitation so is the USA's today (and to a lesser extent Europe which has more regulation due it it having rejected unfettered individualism.) That is all good and swell and I agree with what you are stating now (in the above quote) however, you have stated that Britain was "more democratic" in its parliamentary system than say The early (post-independence) United States....and hence my question is why do you state that? In my opinion both were very much the same at that time (around 1789 to throw a date)....and I disagree with one being superior or more "democratic" than the other. And as far as elite elections go, Poland could have been the most democratic state in Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries by electing their Kings...only the "szlachta" or "nobility" could vote...however, it is important to note that it wasn't only large, wealthy, land-owning aristocrats who had this vote, but also petty, impoverished, pauper nobility who had a title and maybe a horse to their name....this meant that the szlachta as a class made up around 10% of Poland's population in those days, making it very democratic for its time.

MasterKalif -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 11:19:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Who can forget Carter in his sweater by the fireplace and his chat with us? Hey he tried. Think on this- in the 70s steaL a color tv set - go to jail. 2006, improperly dispose of electronic garbage, [same tv set] - go to jail hmmm- what a gluttunous people we are. [gluttony doesnt stop at the border either] lol I have to agree with you....Americans have a tendency to "throw out" refrigerators, tv's etc which are in perfect working condition, but which after 7 or 10 years is deemed "too old" or "old fashioned"....a true consumerist society, at times I think too much.

pahunkboy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 11:29:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Who can forget Carter in his sweater by the fireplace and his chat with us? Hey he tried. Think on this- in the 70s steaL a color tv set - go to jail. 2006, improperly dispose of electronic garbage, [same tv set] - go to jail hmmm- what a gluttunous people we are. [gluttony doesnt stop at the border either] lol I have to agree with you....Americans have a tendency to "throw out" refrigerators, tv's etc which are in perfect working condition, but which after 7 or 10 years is deemed "too old" or "old fashioned"....a true consumerist society, at times I think too much. some of this can be built in obsolescense. Im guilty of being a teck whore. I am not the first on the block to have it- but im in the top 1/3. no matter how you slice it tho- the current rate of consumption is not feesable. I guess im like a little kid. I would like to think that teck- science can save us.

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 12:21:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif That is all good and swell and I agree with what you are stating now (in the above quote) however, you have stated that Britain was "more democratic" in its parliamentary system than say The early (post-independence) United States....and hence my question is why do you state that? In my opinion both were very much the same at that time (around 1789 to throw a date)....and I disagree with one being superior or more "democratic" than the other. And as far as elite elections go, Poland could have been the most democratic state in Europe in the 16th and 17th centuries by electing their Kings...only the "szlachta" or "nobility" could vote...however, it is important to note that it wasn't only large, wealthy, land-owning aristocrats who had this vote, but also petty, impoverished, pauper nobility who had a title and maybe a horse to their name....this meant that the szlachta as a class made up around 10% of Poland's population in those days, making it very democratic for its time. I have to concede that democracy and freedom is subjective and any freedom necessarily impacts on someone elses. Realistically, Britain and the US didn't have fully functioning democracies until much later. What was on offer in 1798 were just gestating democracies so it is really a nonsense to argue about whose democracy allowed more freedoms. I'm aware of the Polish situation. My friend's father was a duke or something but it didn't keep him out of the coalmines in northern England.lol

MasterKalif -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 12:27:11 PM)
true, I agree. That is a shame about your friend's father, I hope they recovered their status in the new Poland [8\|] WWII was difficult for the Poles who ended up fighting in different camps and with foreign armies...

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 1:30:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif WWII was difficult for the Poles who ended up fighting in different camps and with foreign armies... I can't remember the full story but my friend's father, who is dead now and I only ever heard him mention the war on one drunken day, fought for the Polish army, then the Germans and then fought at Monte Casino in the Polish army again. He had a box full of medals, German, Polish and British. He threw them on the table one day and said that's what they give you for being a scared shitless teenager and surviving. Apparently he and his comrades were penned down in a farm house by the Germans and got pissed on a stash of vodka they found because they didn't think they were going to survive. They drank themselves unconscious and woke up with a hangover to find the Germans had moved on and they were given medals for surviving the incident. Purely politics he said. He was very disdainful and remained bitter and angry throughout his life.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 6:45:33 PM)
I'm puzzled by the American dynamism argument, you arrive on a continent, start to commit genocide, are threatened by a European Power, another power protects you, you continue with the genocide, the second European power is threatened by a revitalised 1st power and decides the Sugar Islands are more valuable than the Colonies, you continue the genocide. You buy lost of land from the 1st power when the 2nd power is on top, and then when the 2nd European power is battling the first again you decide to grab Canada, fail, but get some good story tellers to create a mythology for the country, you continue the genocide, you need lots of resources and head west, kik the hell out of a smaller country and take 50% of their land, continue the genocide, the second European power is defeated and there are no longer any external threats to the US, you continue the genocide, there aren't enugh people so you improt loads and evntually decide slavery is not such a good idea, machinery seems the answer, unlimited resurces and space, you develope a culture of screw the weak money is everything, you think about stopping the genocide, the rest of the world goes to war and spends all its money in your country, you stop the genocide and decide to send some people to Europe, your stockmarket crashes and takes everyone else down with it, some nutters start to rule people in other countries and decide to grab other countries, the remaining free world spends all it's money in America, finally you get attacked and help to save the world by paying for others to die and sending a few of your people to die to, with unlimited magnaminity you finance the restructure of Europe....well maybe there's some loans to........ Ther are some interesting books on US history, even by American authors - Don't Give Up the Ship, Myths of the War of 1812...... o yes....and you still deny many parts of the genocide and describe the remnants of the natives as lazy drug addicts......... Possibly some ommisions here...like all the good positive stuff tauhgt in the schools.

pahunkboy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 7:21:56 PM)
so u want us to return the louisiana purchase and sewerds ice box? the US screws the weak, do u reallly think any other country would be a better, more honorable superpower? all this talk of genocide. im missing your point.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/15/2006 7:59:51 PM)
The native americans were pretty much wiped out and in the time I've been here there is almost none of their history displayed apart fromin a condecending manner and also through snide comments. The prevailing culture I observe in many (not all) parts of US is to win at any cost and that normally means you screw / rip off / trample over someone else. All power corrupts, the thing aboput the US is that it / its people honestly don't see themselves in the same way that much of the rest of the world does & does not / cannot cope with how immoral / amoral many of their actions are and how damaging / destructive, murdurous the policies have been - US kids are given indcotination lessons disguised as history, there is no / little room for debate or consideration of alternative views & perspectives. But it is dressed up as fair and balanced. The Louisiana purchase was great for the US but the mythology of brave america has an alternative historical viewpoint, from 1790 onwards it was never rally threatened, it commenced the 1812 war against forces much smaller than it, against a ower fighting for its survival on the other side of the atlanic, all countries have their mythology, but most grow out of believing absolutely in it....not in the US.... Becomoing the superpower will probbly corrupt, what worries me is that the only current superpower does not know humility, or that it is not always right, and that it does not have a right to take naything it wants, and screw everybody else....

MasterKalif -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 1:21:36 AM)
Dtesmoac....while I agree with what you state on the US and its unbalanced actions as a superpower, I have to say that "genocide" against native people is not unique to tne United States...Argentina did much of the same with the Patagonian indians, and Chile likewise in a smaller scale (they tried to put them in reserves more than genocide)...and whole groups of Patagonian indians like the Kaweskar and others are almost if not completely extinct due to European immigrants in the southern cone who even used to hunt them. So the US is not the only one, sadly. At least in the United States they have tried to reconstryct those indigenous people's history and some missionaries were able to even make a written language; they have a great display of bibles written in indian dialects and languages in a museum in Washington DC (forget the name but quite impressive). What is interesting is that Americans do not ever seem to acknowledge the harm they did in Hawaii which was a sovereign nation with a King, which the American colonists helped overthrow and later annexed the islands....

seeksfemslave -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 1:51:31 AM)
The dynamism I refered to was that of the "ordinary" American, not those who wielded power. I realise that it is based on the hard conservative political philosophy that prevails in the US. ie the consequences of economic failure or ill health can be very unpleasant. This is also one reason why there is so much crime in the US. Funnily enough in the UK, with its massive Welfare expenditure ,crime is increasing at an alarming rate but we have too many people who believe every criminal needs an advisor !

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 2:55:13 AM)
The US hasn't lived up to your expectations then? http://www.press.uillinois.edu/f06/hickey.html The US was created on a myth, to look into a clean the mirror is difficult.

pahunkboy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 4:42:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac The native americans were pretty much wiped out and in the time I've been here there is almost none of their history displayed apart fromin a condecending manner and also through snide comments. The prevailing culture I observe in many (not all) parts of US is to win at any cost and that normally means you screw / rip off / trample over someone else. All power corrupts, the thing aboput the US is that it / its people honestly don't see themselves in the same way that much of the rest of the world does & does not / cannot cope with how immoral / amoral many of their actions are and how damaging / destructive, murdurous the policies have been - US kids are given indcotination lessons disguised as history, there is no / little room for debate or consideration of alternative views & perspectives. But it is dressed up as fair and balanced. The Louisiana purchase was great for the US but the mythology of brave america has an alternative historical viewpoint, from 1790 onwards it was never rally threatened, it commenced the 1812 war against forces much smaller than it, against a ower fighting for its survival on the other side of the atlanic, all countries have their mythology, but most grow out of believing absolutely in it....not in the US.... Becomoing the superpower will probbly corrupt, what worries me is that the only current superpower does not know humility, or that it is not always right, and that it does not have a right to take naything it wants, and screw everybody else.... Dtesmoac, I understand your point. Katrina is a fine example of how the US works. The feds, if they did not want to help- so be it- be millions of folks teh globe over DID SEND HELP. much of it was OBSTRUCTED by the feds! What the US does to people in other countries, it will do to its own people, I am angry that natural gas royalties, that are due to native indians havent been paid to them. In that regard- the sloppy record shuffling is plain theft. Many treaties were in fact broken by the feds. Right now I as type- consider the rain forest- the many species- of which holds medical wonders- all being plunderred. I would not mind getting to know an Indian better. Hawaii- now there is a land aquisition. The past 6 years have been so unlike any in my lifetime. Many folks here are baffled, confused, mystified, dumb, or scared. The USA was taken over by a corporate puppeteer. Corporations do not serve the public good- they exisit solely to put $ to the stockholders. From centuries- Russia- has had bloodshed. So- greed and war- must be part of the cycle. I am just one person. I have contacted congress here many times over the past few years. I vote. I inform others. Bush, and the globe looses out. My way or no way. A good idea will stand on its own weight. The Iraq quagmire- has me wondering about other- acts the US has committed. Runing down the list- we are not all that innocent. Keep in mind- the USA, essentially has been overtaken by corporations. Globaliztion is a race to the bottem, and we will see some very difficult times here. The lawyers blur the lines as well. Many that want to speak out- cant- as they are afraid of loosing their jobs, carreers, etc. Another point. All brilliant ideas dont exist soley in DC. This is where we are lossing out. Every region of the globe should be able to express ideas and come to the table. Wind turbines are being outlawed in many towns. Solar is still expensive-.as electiric companies wiggle out of the rebate agreement. Ild love to have an earthship...a dome house. OH- also- 49 states have made it almost impossible to sell power back to the grid. http://www.homepower.com

pahunkboy -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 4:46:38 AM)
http://earthship.com/secure/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=33&osCsid=94246d4b31c9a95086d677d6fc0a5a3b book 2, I just read, fascinating!

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 6:28:37 AM)
MasterKalif - many countries possibly all have been born from genocide of some type, given the great democratic credentials of the US I expected that there would be alittle more honesty within the contry about it. But in most places in the Mid West they worship the pioneers spirt etc but hardly pay lip service to the people they took the land from. Ingrained in most of the Americans I meet is a very negative, biased and jingoistic version of their history. Ignorance appears to be a virtue among many. Seeks - there is individual dynamism in many counries, the class structure in the US seems even more accute than some other places. The abiity to completely segregate sections of housing is blatant, if you are poor or immigrant then you are looked at and treated as trash by many of the average americans. MC - work brought me to the USA on many occasions over the 3 years before being asked to come out for an extended contract, and I did not have a rose tinted view or any real expectations, I simply thought it would be good to experience at first hand and for a prolonged period another culture. Disapointment that many of the steriotypes potrade overseas are actually very acurate. Individually many Americans are very nice, pleasent etc, unfortunately many are not (as is the case in many countries) and collecively they have a culture built on taking what ever they can get and wasting it on trash, and believing that they are gods gift to the earth. paunkboy - the local and national levels of democracy e.g. sherifs, counties, boards that control the DNR / EPA etc, are so riddled with people directly baked with big business money that I have difficulty even considering the country to be democratic anymore. Big business threatens the small towns so that they can not comply with permits, if you haven't got the money you can't run for senior political bodies...the list goes on. You can respect parts of the US system, but on the whole I am simply disapointed with what I have found. MC - I never ever thought I would become pro European, living in the USA has almost made me think the unthinkable....! To all the US people on CM - sorry, but it really is not the wonder land so many of you think it is....and thats not the problem, other places are not either, it the indoctination and blind stupid statements that so many Americans actually believe, when the only other version they get is Fox News, or KQRS.

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 6:36:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac MC - I never ever thought I would become pro European, living in the USA has almost made me think the unthinkable....! I've lived on the continent for twenty years, in France, Germany and Holland and that has got rid of my inherent English distrust of the continent and made me realise they do do some things better than us! lol I'm not blind to the short comings of the EU but neither are most people here, they are as sceptical as the Brits but they tend to think it is better to make it work than not.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 6:44:11 AM)
Before actually working with and later in the US I was an ardent atlantisist......but now.....well I'm on the move politically speeking anyway.........and in a few months physically too. I'm back in Europe for the next week and then back out here for Xmas, it will be interesting to talk to som of my continental co-workers and compare the US / continental perspective of the worl again.

meatcleaver -> RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem (12/16/2006 6:52:03 AM)
I find it fascinating how your posts have changed over the last month or so. I spent some time in California with my brother who took to life there like a duck to water and loves it but he is hard nosed and quite psychopathic when it comes to making a profit. Seeing how at home he was there made me realise what I was perceiving to be the way of life there was not ill founded. My brother would sell my mother if he could make a profit on the deal and that seemed to me how hard you have to be to succeed. That just isn't for me.

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