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RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 3:42:28 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Reasonable contributions with alternate viewpoints, don't seem to be getting a response.

(in reply to Mstr2you)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 3:49:14 PM   
GuidingLite


Posts: 233
Joined: 12/10/2006
Status: offline 		I for one completely agree with him in all aspects.  No he didnt come across as arrogant at all.   Sarcastic yes but his intention was to make a [valid] point.    Some people are just too sensitive.  Geez.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 4:10:18 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		People you agree with don't come across as arrogant. It's the message board version of that trash talking, hotdog athlete just being "colorful" when he plays for your favorite team.
 
I'm not sure about his intent. I was only pointing out that several people have made on-topic contributions that offer an alternative viewpoint, and the original poster has chosen not to respond.
 
Each can make their own inferance.

(in reply to GuidingLite)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 4:14:10 PM   
GuidingLite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

People you agree with don't come across as arrogant.
   WHAT??  Are you kidding?  How the heck do YOU know THAT people I agree with never come across as arrogant????  What arrogance on YOUR part to tell ME how people come across to me.  Im not even going to give you an example becuz your tunnel vision could never perceive any other way but your own.  .  

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 4:21:02 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I wasn't speaking of you personally ... more "you" in general.
 
What was that you were saying about people being too sensitive?

(in reply to GuidingLite)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 5:00:52 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		FR:

I dont generally think of my submission to my partner in terms of it being a "gift". However, I can understand how a person can view the opening up of oneself fully as a gift... and being present with your partner could be viewed as a "gift". I think it's a gift that can be given by either partner, Dom or sub and can be given in the context of any number of types of relationships, but power exchange relationships seem to require this sort of openness if there is to be any sort of longevity.

Maybe that's why people say submission is a gift. That would make dominance a gift as well.

I think that when a person comes into my life and provides me with a glimpse of his soul, a new perspective, spiritual and physical intimacy, or a committment to know the me that is really really me, it is most certainly and very very much a gift.

< Message edited by justheather -- 12/15/2006 5:05:59 PM >

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 5:26:06 PM   
Mstr2you


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Reasonable contributions with alternate viewpoints, don't seem to be getting a response.


Caitllyn you are absolutely correct although I would argue that reasonable contributions with alternative viewpoints have been as rare a sighting here as a democrate in Salt Lake City Utah I will admit that I did get caught up  in the fun of tweaking the congregation as it were and I did drop the ball in terms tof responding to people who took the time to offer their own ideas. And for that I apologize. If you look back at the thread I think you will agree that  it got so congested with personal garbage it was kind of hard to stay on point, but you are right I could have and I should have.

Having said that here are my observations since you asked:

I already pointed out that I was shocked at the anger and in fact very real anger, some people have felt at my belittling the concept of submission as a gift. I thought my post would provoke thought and I thought it might amuse but I really did not think it would provoke real anger and I do realize that even some of the personal attacks were the result of people feeling  personally attacked themselves and enraged and frustrated at what I said or the way I said it. This also suprised me because the post was not directed at any individual and yet some chose to take it as a personal attack.
Interesting.  I sometimes underestimate the power of the written word to stir emotion as I am very analytical myelf and rarely react to things I read emotionally. This is not a point of pride at all and in fact I would like to be more the opposite, but in the end it is who I am and in the end that is all there is.

That the idea of submission being a gift is so iinternalized by some to such an extent as to become a part of who that person is ...is both foreign and new to me. Let us assume FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUEMENT that there is a spectrum and on one end is the  "submission is my gift to you" group  and on the other  end the "submission is not a gift it is an action for the sake of a reaction" group. Of course no one can be catorgized and we are all shades of gray but just bear with me if you would.

I would guess that along our imaginary spectrum scale  the submission is a gift group are more into long term romantic relationships where they feel the need to give so completely of themselves that there can be no question of motivation or even of personal desire, They literally give you themselves... for if being  submissive is who they are inside than if they offer that submission to another than they give a part or the whole of who they are to the dominant .

I say I guess because this is a foreign concept to me and I admit that I really don't understand where they are coming from, I don't say it's wrong I say that I don't understand it. I am a dominant but I don't want anyone's "being" or any part of their being. I want them to by whole be who they are. I want them to be exactly who they are while submitting to me because than it is what is real to me.  I will take your submission, no need to offer it as a gift. Keep who you are and submit to me.

On the other end of the spectrum I think there are those who  view what they offer to the dominant as the part to make the whole, without one the other does not and could not exist except perhaps in a vacume of of artificial emptyness. While they would embrace a long term relationship just the same as the other goup they see things in a less romantacized way, I think one poster put it that it was like a contract between partners where the rules are spelled out and the exchange is equitable . I have seen this point of view devalued as being " not real" or "out for yourself" and I don't like that. It is as real as the other, it's just a different perspective .

I know that none of us can be catorgized , this is not an either or kind of thing. We are constantly changing and growing both within ourselves and within our relationships. I know what end of the spectrum I come closer to and and I know that I would not be happy with a submissive coming from the absolute belief  that what they give to me is a gift because that is not what I want nor is it what I need.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 5:31:10 PM   
Serenityy


Posts: 97
Status: offline 		There are many who view submission not in terms of personality; but in terms of only what they can offer to a partner. Not all consider submission to be a natural personality trait; for them, they do indeed 'give the gift' of submission to their partner.

(in reply to Mstr2you)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 5:33:58 PM   
angaothsi


Posts: 242
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: yourMissTress

Pot...Kettle...BLACK!

I have seen more posts from you, on this thread, that do not keep to the OP than do.  I, for one, would take you far more seriously if you stopped the dramatics, name calling, and insults and attempted to state your point in a rational and fair manner.



**Applauds**

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 5:53:39 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


Of course I know nothing about your life and neither do I want to. I wasn't addressing your life but pray tell me, when have you given a gift in the expectation that you will take it back if the person you are giving it too doesn't conform to your view of the world?  Forgive me but I think that is what subs do or so I'm lead to believe, when their dom doesn't live up to expectations so where is the gift aspect of it? In fact many say as much on their profiles.


Bold added by me.

So your post was based on something that YOU think and that you have been lead to believe? Perhaps you should wait until you have facts to back up your theory before posting things as fact.




What is you idea of a gift, something you give and can take back when you want?

Strange sort of gift to me. I've had more generous bosses.

_____________________________

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RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/15/2006 11:46:26 PM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


What is you idea of a gift, something you give and can take back when you want?

Strange sort of gift to me. I've had more generous bosses.


As I said previously, you do not know me so why do you assume it is something I give and will then take back? I take my relationship with my Master very seriously and certainly do not see it as something to pick up or drop when I see fit.

Not everyone sees things the way you do.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 8:29:49 AM   
LadyIce


Posts: 406
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		LOL
People here are a hoot, I laugh at both sides.
I hope you all can laugh at yourself.

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RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 8:38:49 AM   
LadyIce


Posts: 406
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mstr2you

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Reasonable contributions with alternate viewpoints, don't seem to be getting a response.


Caitllyn you are absolutely correct although I would argue that reasonable contributions with alternative viewpoints have been as rare a sighting here as a democrate in Salt Lake City Utah I will admit that I did get caught up  in the fun of tweaking the congregation as it were and I did drop the ball in terms tof responding to people who took the time to offer their own ideas. And for that I apologize. If you look back at the thread I think you will agree that  it got so congested with personal garbage it was kind of hard to stay on point, but you are right I could have and I should have.


I have no problem with Mstr2you, but then I try not to take everything someone else says personally.
I think this is a great question, and a great topic.
So what if he uses profanity?

(in reply to Mstr2you)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 12:13:10 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		People really spent time *reporting* to the moderators on THIS?

What on earth did they find to complain about?.....

agirl

(in reply to Mstr2you)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 2:06:36 PM   
Mstr2you


Posts: 45
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

People really spent time *reporting* to the moderators on THIS?

What on earth did they find to complain about?.....

agirl



Actually I should say that after I posted my comment about receiving email from the moderators I received yet another email <grin> saying that no one had complained and that he or she had decided on his or her own that I was making personal attacks and aparently the fragile psyche of some of  my fellow posters was at some risk if I continued on the course I was on so of course I continued. Okay I added that part about the fragile psyche but you get the idea. Anyway it would seem I owe an apology for accusing my fans of running to the moderator as it would seem the moderator came running to me.


PS

In the interest of avoiding all this misunderstanding and such and in the spirit of forgive and forget and with a chorus of Kumbia gently playing in the background I thought I would preview my next topic just to see if it would offend anyone. So without further ado here it is:







FUCK YOU AND YOUR CONSENT


anyone?

anyone?

hellooooooooooooooo


< Message edited by Mstr2you -- 12/16/2006 2:26:28 PM >

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 2:11:42 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mstr2you


FUCK YOU AND YOUR CONSENT


anyone?

anyone?

hellooooooooooooooo




LOL
Look Mr. I aint a scared of you!
YOU need a good spanking!
Bring your arse over here!

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Mstr2you)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 2:16:33 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Not everyone is going to appreciate your humor, and I have to say I have found this thread a little "in your face" myself.
For the record, I consider all that I give to the world a gift .. so yes my submission is a gift in my eyes, and I do not care if you want  to "fuck me and my gift" or not... there is someone that seems to appreciate it and me just the way I am and that is good enough for me.

As far as fucking consent... um, when they lock you up in prison you can tell me how that is working for you

PS, Thought I would say that you stating other people posting here are fragile and denigrating them is somewhat humorous seeing that you seem to be pretty fragile in taking offense to what others said in response to your OP which seemed designed to cause a flame war... just an observation.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mstr2you)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 2:21:16 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		Glad to see everyone's hashing out the important issues. Too bad crappydom's no longer around to contribute as well.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/16/2006 2:23:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 2:24:55 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		lol....

Communication by Professor Jali

Something to remember when communicating with people is your audience. If you are talking to a bunch of 5 year olds you don't speak with big words that they cannot understand. If you're talking to an only english speaking audience you don't speak in japanese. If you have a large group of people, to communicate effectively you speak in a way that the majority can understand and accept and take in, (if your intent is to get your message across to as many people as possible). If however, your the artistic type and are just creatively expressing from your own mind and don't give a hoots ass who understands and only want to communicate with those who can relate to the way you want to get your message across, don't get confused as to what it is that you have set up in regards to the reponses from your audience.

Communication is about communicating, it is not effective if your message isn't getting across. Communication styles have to be changed to cater to your audience if your intent is to communicate to as many people as possible. If it's not, thats cool too.

Sometimes when I write topics, I want a general response from as many people as possible so I will write the topic in a way that will communicate to the most people. Other times I'm looking for more specific responses and will cut out a lot of people being able to respond just by the way I've worded a topic.

Addition: And I just thought of something else. Sometimes I get caught up so much in the processes of my own mind that I just babble on not thinking about how its coming across, which is a pretty ineffective style of communication too...but.. c'est la vie

< Message edited by slavejali -- 12/16/2006 3:11:21 PM >

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to Mstr2you)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: It Aint A Gift - 12/16/2006 4:17:03 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you for the response Mstr2you ...
 
I agree with you on some level, but do feel you are selling the "gift" group short a bit. Now in fairness, you did indicate several times that people are difficult to categorize ... shades of grey, etc ... Obviously, you are entirely correct.
 
In my view, those that feel their submission is a gift can actually fall into several groups ("perhaps", caviat).
 
Some might use this as an almost guard ... I'm not giving this to just anyone, but only those worthy of such a gift. That might fit in with your romantic notion.
 
Still others might genuinely feel that they want to give something special ... something they see of epic value. You can buy someone a car, and that's a wonderful gift. You can buy someone a pair of designer jeans, and that's a wonderful gift ... but what is the ultimate gift? Some might feel the gift of self fits the bill. The idea that the gift can be taken back, to me is not on point for this type of person. It can be spun to make it on point, but in my view, we are just making words fit a situation. Give me enough time, and I can make submission a tuna salad sandwich, with the choice spin of words.
 
Some might look at the gift, and something completely internal ... not an external gift at all. Like an artist or musician with a gift, or who is gifted ... a person may feel that the ability to share on that level with another person, is a gift of it's own accord. Lets face facts ... all facets of this, from complete slavery, to casual play partner ... are just not for everyone. Not everyone could do it. Those that can, might be said to have a gift, or be gifted.
 
When I look at the rebuttal opinions from several people, I notice one thing right away ... they all focus on the transfer of something from one person to another ... and point out that something that can be taken back, is not a gift. It has to be forever, to be a gift, is the point of view. I don't share that view. If "Master A", is given the gift of submission by "Submissive B", the gift is intact from the moment it is given. If the relationship ends a year later, that year was still given. You can say the gift is open-ended, because it can end, but whatever ends up being given, is in fact given forever.
 
The best thought expressed on this thread, in my view, come from Miss Tress, when she said (paraphrased) that submission is whatever the people involved agree it is. We probably could have ended there.
 
Thank you for the thread. You certainly caused a stir, which is not always a bad thing.

(in reply to Mstr2you)
Profile   Post #: 180
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