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Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 11:30:49 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		Upon doing some research last night, I discovered the following organization:

http://leap.cc/

While in the past I've thought about the advantages of decriminalizing certain "softer" street drugs, this organization stands for the outright legalization of all street drugs.

I must admit... they present a very convincing case. And this organization is headed by current, retired and former law enforcement people... not aging hippies or once-convicted drug offenders.

What say you?
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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 11:32:56 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		It wont happen. The govt wants 1000% control of all of its people.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 11:36:01 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Its a bit too sensible an idea. No doubt its time will come.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 11:40:04 AM   
Aeon


Posts: 199
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline 		But that's just the point.  By criminalizing street drugs the government has CREATED a black market over which they have NO control.  If they legalized them they could completely control them.  They could tax them, sell them, oversee the growth (or development) and therefore quality and strength of said drugs.  We wouldn't have street thugs killing each other over sales territories and junkies dying in alleyways. The War on Drugs is a completely self-defeatist endeavor.  And let's be honest...what is the main reason most kids try drugs in the first place???   Because mom and dad and "big brother" all say they shouldn't. The more taboo something is, the more interesting it is to young people who are already naturally inquisitive and looking to explore anything and everything. So in addition to making money for the country off of the taxes on the drugs and cutting down the gang related violence they probably would also cut down on the demand for the drugs as well.

< Message edited by Aeon -- 12/15/2006 11:42:47 AM >

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 11:48:07 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		Please feel free to post any response you like.

But I hope some of you take a moment to actually look at their site, then come back to comment on the case they present.

I suppose I'm just a little bit more interested in knowing whether you think outright legalization should or shouldn't happen as opposed to opinions regarding whether it will or won't happen.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 11:52:51 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		it is a sort of prohibition. 

considering the wierd labs that can unleash rampant diseases-

IMO too much resources have been spent on the war on drugs.

bedspace in the prisons should be for the violent. not every druggie is violent.

before 1903, no drug was illegal in the USA. none.

the govt has files on everyone. and in those files there has to be info that is unbecoming to the subject.

take teh olympic doping.  could that trickle down to every day life?

this topic - the timing is interesting= the international wants to regulate ALL vitemens, supplemnets, etc. making them in effect Rxs.

i think politics ought to left out of good scientific research.

it seems everyone i hung with back in the big city is now into hard drugs. its their life. im glad im not tho.

if you come from an upstanding family- you can dope around. if you are poor you spin the dice when doing druigs.

too much has come down to not what is right and wrong- but what is legalistically right and such.

native indians passed around the peace pipe..... all of time man has sought out diff chems.

my complaint is with HEMP. hemp has valuable applications and is not a drug- it can not be grown in the US. tons of trees would be saved if hemp could be grown here. will blame it on the cotton lobby.

tobacco is a drug- as is liquor- -so who decides.

follow the cash- i suppose....


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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 12:33:20 PM   
MasterKalif


Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
Status: offline 		While I would be personally in favour of legalizing certain "drugs" (such as weed, etc), I don't think all street drugs need to be legalized outright for simple health reasons....a lot of the crack or even stronger variants of weed at times (so I have read and heard from people who buy this stuff regularly) is that street sellers often aren't selling the pure stuff, but mixed in with other "crap" or chemicals (excuse the term but its most fitting) which can be harmful in order to make it seem larger and they can sell more. Something to consider. The US government, being as conservative as it is, I doubt will ever legalize ALL drugs, I could see maybe in 60 yrs that they could legalize weed, but that is about it.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 12:56:24 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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Status: offline 		Living in Holland I can't see a problem with legalizing soft drugs. Hard drugs I would regulate and give them free to drug addicts to enable them to stabalize their lives and work. Its cheaper to regulate and control the flow of drugs than put up with all the crime and pay for all the expensive social workers and clinicians to clean up a mess they are incapable of cleaning up and not forgetting the cost of keeping drug addicts and pushers in jail. Its all stupid.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 12:59:13 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		People use drugs, including the most pernicious and damaging drug in our culture - alcohol, to relieve the stress of life. For those for whom the stress of life is extreme, their use rises according to the level of relief required.

That so many in our culture use alcohol so frequently and in large quantities, indicates that such use is an antidote to frequent and significant stress. This stress is strongly associated with the struggle for a decent life, the interactions with others (particularly in the workplace) required to achieve a decent life, or the absence of any realistic possibility of a decent life.

In this way, we see a society which is self medicating regularly, simply in order to perpetuate itself, and individuals self medicating simply in order to blot out the stress of life in order to continue life.

Of course, such regular and large use of alcohol brings with it health risks for the individual, and social problems for the wider society ranging from the family unit to the entire nation. What is interesting here, is that it is these risks and problems which are advanced as grounds to ban other drugs used illegally by some to alleviate stress. The principal differences between alcohol and these other drugs being cultural and by way of government control.

It would be surely advantageous to legalise all drugs, in terms of the costs of policing which would be saved, in terms of the revenues the government could raise on tax on legalised drugs, in terms of the ability to oversee and control the safety and quality of the supply.

But the disadvantages to government, and to society down to the family unit, far outweigh these advantages. Alcohol abuse is the most widespread in terms of drug abuse, because alcohol is so freely available, and also as a result of this has a serious nationwide impact on life quality, health costs and crime. The possible consequence of legalising other drugs added to this, could easily be the total breakdown of the nation.

The solution really is the most difficult - how to resolve the stress in life, without the need for the nation to self medicate itself to oblivion. Given this difficulty, it might seem more simple to enable self medication with a wider choice of acceptable substances, so that however shit life is, it will seem OK. A Brave New World scenario - but then we have that already. Soma, served by the glass.

E

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 1:19:48 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Living in Holland I can't see a problem with legalizing soft drugs. Hard drugs I would regulate and give them free to drug addicts to enable them to stabalize their lives and work. Its cheaper to regulate and control the flow of drugs than put up with all the crime and pay for all the expensive social workers and clinicians to clean up a mess they are incapable of cleaning up and not forgetting the cost of keeping drug addicts and pushers in jail. Its all stupid.



most of the states in the USA dont even try to rehabilitate druggies. the prison industry is huge here. some of it is being privatized. "lock em up and throw away the key" mentality is the norm.

I recall being in Chicago in the 80s begging for help. The most I could get was referral to a referral to a referral to yet another referral who of course could not offer help.

I have seen 2 incidents of drugs being used as a weapon as per employment. A company out of Philly was using the drug free policy simply to get rid of employees they did not like. When they did this to me- I made quite a stink over it. I got ahold of the hospital- the DR who headded employer services. I explained that I had a legal Rx for a pain pill...and based on his departments report- they canned me. I also told him I suspected they did this routinely. He profrusely apoligised, made it right. [a few months later- they dropped that company and would not serve them] This place was unscrupulous. They had not even ASKED if I was on any medication!!!

In the USA, we punish- we dont rehabilitate.

I dont see any end to this strategy.

Watch the mens room at the Chicago board of trade. Attorneys coking up in the mens room, happens all the time.
I seen it with my own eyes.  So how is a homeless street bum any less human? Who knows.

Then there is the 2 tiered legal system. If you got $$$ - you can get high. If you are a bum.,,, you go to jail.

I lived in the inner city for my 1st apartment. The gangs and drugs were bad. Yet- in the fancy suburban area...just about every house there- the owner did something shady- to gain the funds to be there. THis would pertain to all uban areas. The guys in the ties often were as bad as the gangs!

IN 1988 I put my stuff in a $100 clunker car- and headed across country to a small town. I had my life and little else. After gangs torching my home, the car jacking, the bullets 6 that came thru my home window- I had to leave. It was teh best decission I made.

To International friends. Often you see the snotty suburban brat as a tourist. ALl Americans are not that way. There are tons of smal villages all across America where people are more important then greeed. The thing is- small town people tend to stay in the same area. Tend not to travel abroad. If you want to see America, go to a few small towns. They are the REAL AMERICA.

-regards

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 1:26:54 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Lady E: I wonder if alcohol and by extension other drugs really do cause the problems you claim. I mean in terms of numbers.

When you watch TV programmes showing the problems at "chucking out " time in British cities what you see is maybe 1000 people, say 850 doing nothing untoward at all, 140 pissed but just being rowdy and 10 pissed and looking for trouble. If those 10 were severely dealt with then the problems would diminish.
Alcoholism is not a disease it is a symptom and dealing with it should not require limiting the freedoms of the millions who drink sensibly.

I cant improve on Aeon's post above with regard to the stupidity of current "drug" legislation.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 1:43:30 PM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		It should happen - but wont happen.  Our government makes way too much money on the drug industry.  One of the things that destroyed my belief in the US gov in the early days.  Our government could literally wipe out the drug problem, yet they choose not too.  At one time they had the evidence and ability (on our soil) to arrest major major drug lords/cartels.  Our gov also had the ability and possiblity of putting away half of latin america.  We have herion in the country because guess what folks - our government OPENED up the trade lines after WW2. 

But what do i know?  My mother didnt spend the first 24 years of my life tracking down/arresting major drug lords from all over (and the last 25 years of hers)  I didnt learn a THING about drugs and our government.  Tell you what i do know from 24 years and living side by side with our government and what they do about drugs.

(posted with absolute disgust and complete sarcasm w/the "what do i know")

Our government only cares about money - not the people.  Drugs are a profitable business.  They make more then they put out.  Hence "profit"  Who cares what the government "says" - its all about the actions.  Their actions when it comes to the war on drugs is disgusting and disapointing and they will never legalize drugs because frankly it is just way too profitable.

i am all for legalizing.  Might AS WELL

< Message edited by Devilslilsister -- 12/15/2006 1:46:55 PM >

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 1:47:00 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Seeks - it is that life is shit, that leads to drug use (including alcohol) and that leads to problems for all.

The question really is, can we make life suck less for all, or is it socially more beneficial to enable self medication such that however life sucks, it is made less so through chemical alteration of its impression?

Life can suck for reasons which government and business and the culture has control over and can ameliorate. But for many, life sucks on psychological/ emotional grounds, and to alter that would require all of us to act, as individuals in concert, and basically be nice to each other. Never has happened and never will, and one is likely to be nailed to a cross for proposing it.

Given that, as so often advanced on the fora here, all governments seek to control the people, it would seem greatly to their advantage in this aim, to enable and indeed enforce medication of the people via the same drugs which they ban. That governments do not do this, is because they realise that a nation of drugged up people is simply not worth controlling.

However, in a Brave New World scenario, it might well come to the point where limited legalisation is allowed, such that those for whom life truly sucks, can be made into useful citizens by drugging them regularly to keep them happy.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 1:50:50 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I don't believe there should be 100% legal drugs of all forms. I think the milder drugs should be legal. I really can't see it being a good thing to have meth for sale at your local alcohol store. As anyone on that drug is unfit to do anything. They think they are, but they aren't. I've seen more than a few on it, and they are useless. Drugs like pot, where the effects fade and aren't that extreme or addictive by comparison. A person could easily regulate their use around a normal life. But Crack, or Meth. Come on, I wouldn't hire anyone on it, because they are the least reliable people, and while on it, can't even think well enough to do a job. And most that do it, do it all the time, because they are heavily addicted. So legalizing it doesn't solve anything, they'll still have to steal to get the money for it, and no employer other than pimps would hire a meth head, or crack head. Because they suck as employees or as people in general(Off the drug they may good people, but certain drugs really fuck people up).

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 2:36:21 PM   
LaTigresse


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Status: offline 		It would not hurt my feelings if they made pot legal. Nope, not at all.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 2:44:46 PM   
Aeon


Posts: 199
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline 		There are so many good points here i don't know where to begin! 

NeedtoUseYou--wouldn't you agree that whether you legalize or not there is always going to be a demand for each and every drug out there today?  If you legalize one and not the other you would just be keeping the black market alive. This is the very source of the violence attached to drugs and as long as it exists the violence will never end.  And also think about all the amateur meth labs that blow up each year and all the money we ship off to Colombia every year for Cocaine. Would you agree that there are good reasons to legalize hard drugs as well? 

Devilslilsister-Wouldn't you say that it would be even more profitable for our nation if we DID legalize?  This is why I can't understand why our legislators won't legalize!  LOL  This country IS all about money hence one would think that our government would have been able to sniff out the potential capital they stand to gain here. Our farmers are losing their farms and becoming homeless...give them Marijuana to grow and subsidize their land.  Same with Coca trees...and Opiates. All product goes to a government manufacturer run by government employees (creating new jobs) who monitor the strength and quality of the products. Sell it in the tobacco shops (hehe) and tax it. Keep the $$ here for crying out loud.  LOL

LadyEllen- so true, so true...life does suck for many people and I think people will always self-medicate. I think its just a case of choosing the lesser of two evils really.

We have to admit at this point that the war on drugs has been a complete failure. I think that to a certain degree the government needs to just step back and take a look at  route that may not immediately be hugely successful, but that might at least offer a light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. It comes down to the kids...the future generations. The ones who are addicts today cannot be forcibly changed, but if i've learned one thing from being a parent its that the more you tell kids not to do something the more they want to do it. I think if the whole taboo aspect of the drug issue were removed that fewer and fewer kids would feel the desire to try them at all in the first place. Especially if they are informed of the LEGITIMATE dangers involved.  Look how kids today are choosing more and more often to NOT smoke cigarrettes. And thank God not every person who picks up a glass of alcohol becomes an alcoholic.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 4:19:39 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeon

There are so many good points here i don't know where to begin! 

NeedtoUseYou--wouldn't you agree that whether you legalize or not there is always going to be a demand for each and every drug out there today?  If you legalize one and not the other you would just be keeping the black market alive. This is the very source of the violence attached to drugs and as long as it exists the violence will never end.  And also think about all the amateur meth labs that blow up each year and all the money we ship off to Colombia every year for Cocaine. Would you agree that there are good reasons to legalize hard drugs as well? 


Sure there will always be a demand for drugs. I don't think all the violence or crime associated with drugs will end, if they are legal either. Some drugs when you do them regularly, make the user non-employable. So, unless the user is going to be fed drugs on the taxpayers dime forever, they'll still have to steal to get them.

As far as the amateur meth labs blowing up, that will continue unless you make the drug very cheap in comparison to the illegal version present today. As that is a method to make money and supply a habit. If we made them legal and cheap well we wouldn't make a significant amount of money from the effort. Again Meth heads aren't fit for employment, which is why making it legal doesn't really help. As they still won't have a means of legally acquiring money. And very very few meth users are casual meth users. They exist but are a rarity. So, all you're doing is legally sanctioning a drug that will in the end make whoever uses it a completely unproductive member of society.

I'm all for legalizing drugs that don't severely impair a persons ability to function within society. I've seen no meth heads demonstrate this ability. So, what's the point of legalizing it? If it's money, as I've said earlier the only way to stop the amateur meth labs is to severely reduce the street price. In which case you stop making money off it. And you still don't solve the employment issues with addicts.

That is the difference between drugs, some you can do and still hold a job. Others with continued use this is not possible. Legalizing pot for example and holding the price steady would more than likely wipe out the illegal trade and boost taxes, because almost every person I know that only smokes pot and does alcohol still works. The flip side of this is the hard drug addicts, I don't know one of them that work. So, the pot smoker more than likely will pay for the pot with legally obtained funds. The meth head will still have to turn to crime for their drug of choice.




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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 4:26:20 PM   
Aeon


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Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline 		What if You had to prove employment to purchase much the same way one must show ID before purchasing alcohol or cigarettes?  And couldn't the government regulate how much one can buy at a time and how often? And from what i have seen Meth, already IS very cheap.

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 4:35:31 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		funny enuff we dope up our soldiers

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RE: Legalize Street Drugs? - 12/15/2006 4:40:56 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeon

What if You had to prove employment to purchase much the same way one must show ID before purchasing alcohol or cigarettes?  And couldn't the government regulate how much one can buy at a time and how often? And from what i have seen Meth, already IS very cheap.



Well, then you just created a need for a black market again. It's sort of circular logic. All this will do is make a market for me, a non-user, to go buy drugs for my thieving meth head friend for that new PS3 he just swiped. It doesn't change anything. Meth is cheap, Crack is cheap, but not so cheap when you have to do it multiple times a day, and unemployed. It's an employment issue really, at the heart of it. No one is going to hire a tweaker, at least for very long, becuase they can't focus, they don't listen, and always want to get another hit. And not to mention when they do have a lot of meth, they tend to stay up for days, in a drug hazed frenzy, then crash for 16 hours straight. The drugs very characteristics, make it incompatible with a productive life. I'd like to see an employer that will work with that kind of individual. It just wouldn't be worth it illegal or not, it's the drug itself.

I've not been around many heroine users, so I can't say about that drug, but Meth, I have a sufficient pool of people to form an opinion, and that is simply the drug makes them unemployable. Legal, Illegal, they will still be unemployable. Thus will need to steal or make and distribute the drug themselves.

(in reply to Aeon)
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