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Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 2:10:50 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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Here is an issue that is often on my mind in terms of D/s. It is at the basis of power exchange and it is far from being a new issue on this board via many other topics. But I’d like to isolate it and discuss it, hopefully get intelligent opinions about it.

I get many submissives that request that I dominate them. I get few submissives that offer up submission.

When I look back at a lot of the dynamics that I’ve had in the past, I realise that for a great deal of them, it was easy to get them to submit to activities they liked but where it got tough was when it was something that they didn’t like?

That got me to thinking are we role-playing D/s or are we D/s?

I know it has to be “good” for all parties involved. Agreed. And I like taking things slow and I don’t expect submissives to hand it all over in the beginning. But I do expect that as we earn each other’s trust that the resistance will decrease somewhat.

Perhaps some only want to role-play D/s. I have enjoyed D/s role-play, that isn’t the issue. The issue is that so many claiming: “please own me and make me your slave” turn out to be temper tantrum divas. I was told by one boy that he expected me to rip the submission right out of him. I don’t think he realised he was dealing with a sane woman.

On the other hand, I do love a challenge. I do love taking a strong “socially dominant” person and getting them to submit to me. I guess there is somewhat of a “take-down” which can be a hot seduction game. And resistance play can be fun now and then as well. But when it seems the relationship is more based on resistance play then respect of the D/s dynamic, that is when frustration sets in for me.

So now I turn over the floor to you kinksters. What is your take on this?

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

Post #: 1

RE: Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 2:48:41 PM

sting516

Posts: 505
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: long island, ny
Status: offline

Lady Angelika,

There is a fine line that can be hard to tread...when a sub offers up his/her submission too readily, they are often accused of being one who will give their submission to anyone who comes along...on the other hand, when we make it less easy, we're often told we aren't submissive.

As You know...the most important part of the bdsm relationship is building the trust necessary for one to submit...that takes time, sometimes longer with some than with others...in my conversations with You, i'd say You are one easy to build rapport with...however there are others with whom it would take much longer...

i'm not really sure if this answered Your question...but that would be my take on what i think You're asking.

sting

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 2

RE: Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 2:59:40 PM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

Well I am certainly no expert on the subject, and I doubt anyone can really claim to be, but IMHO submission is simply a trait, one that must be nurtured to get the end result. I don't think you can pressure someone into submission, they must give it. With that said it can't be simply for a specific act or scene, normally anyway, it has to be for whatever the Dominant chooses, controlled (OK bad choice of words) by only the specific limits of the sub. This does open up the possibility of the sub engaging in an activity they may not be that fond of, but then again isn't that part of the fun of pushing limits in the first place, the element of surprise, the moving forward and not simply being stagnant. As for those who may simply be role-playing, hmmm, perhaps we all start that way to a point. Recalling back it seemed that BDSM was more a fantasy than a reality in the beginning, so perhaps role-play is the proverbial first step. I would have to think however after the stars disappear..lol, that the role play goes by the wayside so that the entire experience can be enjoyed to it's fullest. OK..nuff of my ramblings...next....

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 3

RE: Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 3:03:45 PM

SecretDomme

Posts: 152
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline

I think there are many different styles of submission, just as there are different styles of domination. I've met subs who have had the "just TRY and dominate me" attitude, and to whom I have politely said. "Sorry, I don't 'try' to dominate anyone. Submission is freely given to me." Now, that being said, I also like a feisty sub, at times, who isn't going to "yes Mistress" me to death. I think it all comes down to really knowing your partner and finding one who complements your style.

Be well,
Julie

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 4

RE: Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 3:07:31 PM

BeachMystress

Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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I agree that even for the ones that want you to dominate them just want to give what they want. I often find those are "shopping list" subs, who have very definite ideas of what will be done to them. Some of them even want to present a script to you. To me, this type of sub is role playing.

The ones who offer their submission to you as they get to know you seem to be a bit more realistic. They actually want to submit to YOU, rather than just some idea of who you are. These are the ones, for the most part, that I consider to be living D/s. They realize that not every Domme is a fit for them, nor they a fit for every Domme. They put time and effort into the relationship. It is who they are, rather than what they do.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 5

RE: Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 3:12:30 PM

Tangwystal

Posts: 121
Joined: 8/18/2004
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I tell each dom that I talk to up front that they have to earn my respect. I won't call them sir right off, I won't do everything they tell me to without blinking an eye. As I get to know them and trust them more things will start to change. I won't even meet with a dom who expects me to give them that sort of respect in the first email exchange or even the first meeting. Bells and whistles that we are not at all compatible. I am not going to tell them when things change either.. if they are dom they will recognize it.

_____________________________

non mihi, non tibi, sed nobis

Tangwystal

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 6

RE: Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 5:12:07 PM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

So now I turn over the floor to you kinksters. What is your take on this?

- LA

I think you've just hit on the difference between play and relationship. It's very fun to have scenes that can be struggling. And it can be very fulfilling to see someone have a breakthrough over something that was very difficult for them.

But making it the foundation of your relationship is exhausting and won't work long term. Ultimately they have to know where they stand, where you stand and where the line is. Do-me subs often don't even realize how they acting in this way, but it is very much a "It's all about me" type of attitude.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 7

RE: Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 6:54:20 PM

bluedogg7000

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/2/2005
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To me the gift of submission is just that, a gift. It is a gift of mind and body and is to be cherished. It is also a gift of trust that should be earned. On the other hand, a qiuck leap to submission or a demand for the same is somehow superficial it seems to me. While I wouldn't want to condemn the notion of "quickie play", I find something a bit deeper more satisfying....

(in reply to EmeraldSlave2)

Post #: 8

RE: Give or Take? - 2/19/2005 11:42:25 PM

EmeraldSlave2

Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bluedogg7000

To me the gift of submission is just that, a gift. It is a gift of mind and body and is to be cherished. It is also a gift of trust that should be earned. On the other hand, a qiuck leap to submission or a demand for the same is somehow superficial it seems to me. While I wouldn't want to condemn the notion of "quickie play", I find something a bit deeper more satisfying....

For me being a slave isn't a gift, it's just my orientation. My relationship as a slave isn't a gift either, it's just the primary part of my life which is very fulfilling with a lot of work.

For me I love both casual play and lifetime relationships and get a lot out of both, I take each for what they can bring to me and enjoy the heck out of it.

(in reply to bluedogg7000)

Post #: 9

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 7:53:45 AM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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First, thank you all to date for your response. I completely agree that building the foundation for a solid relationship where partners trust each other takes time. I also know there are levels of trust and limits can be pushed slowly as the trust gets stronger. That's pretty much the way I've always operated.

Let me address a few points more specifically:

quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516

Lady Angelika,

There is a fine line that can be hard to tread...when a sub offers up his/her submission too readily, they are often accused of being one who will give their submission to anyone who comes along...on the other hand, when we make it less easy, we're often told we aren't submissive.

I agree. That fine line is there. In fact, it is always there in the game of seduction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tangwystal

I tell each dom that I talk to up front that they have to earn my respect. I won't call them sir right off, I won't do everything they tell me to without blinking an eye.

All individuals have their approaches and I respect yours completely. I even find it to be a very good one. There is one thing however that is a point of contention for me and perhaps if someone explained it to me from a sub’s point of view I would understand.

I have been told by some boys that they would call me Miss only after it was established that we would engage. So I generally ask them if are they hopeful that, based on what they knew about me to date, we would hook up. I’ve not had one answer “no” to date. In a case like this I would generally point out that given the fact that they know I like a respectful, obedient sub, why would they not start the courting period by calling me Miss. I mean if their goal is to seduce me, and they know that this small gesture would make me happy, then why hold back? It’s not like they are giving up a right arm. They are simply showing respect and good faith.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to sting516)

Post #: 10

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 11:45:13 AM

subfeelings

Posts: 4
Joined: 7/31/2004
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Miss Angelika,

Your question "are we role-playing D/s or are we D/s?"

I've often thought about this too, especially as I'm one fairly new to the D/s lifestyle or at least consciously. It often struck me how much game playing goes on and how people are not always what they seem to be, but it's no wonder when in many cases people don’t understand the difference between their wants and needs, we often spend a long time searching for something only to find that when we get it, we no longer want it!

I often read that the Dominant is looking for a challenge, but surely this just encourages game playing, especially because in many cases the mere act of advertising puts the Dominant in the role-playing category themselves. I've read many of the profiles and in many cases find it difficult to understand what people (Domina's) are looking for. It seems that many of the profiles are defensive/protective stating that their are not looking for x, but just maybe their open to x,y and z, surely this fosters game/role-playing.

I think any communication that's starts by saying their willing to submit in any language has to be someone looking for an experience a role-player, you can't submit to someone you don't know, if this is not what you want I suggest that these emails would be better ignored.

I've gotten very dishearten on here lately there's so many game players, for the male it's just another way to get a sexual experience, I don't claim to understand the female but would suggest it's the same motive or it's the commercial aspects.

I've spend a great deal of time trying to understand my needs and wants, its sometimes difficult but I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this isn't the type of site for me, I'm looking for a long-term relationship with a dominate woman, She should be the first thing I think about in the morning and the last thing at night, I know it's a little idealistic but through the good and the bad she will be the most important part of my life. The problem is that where do I go, because on the normal dating sites my need for loving female authority would be seen as somewhat perverted, anyway I didn't mean this to be all about me. The submissive self obsession is another topic, although I guess its all part of the game playing.

I think there's a big difference between a slave and a submissive and I do believe the word slave is used very loosely or should I say misused.

I think BDSM by its very nature is all about game playing, your question are we role-playing D/s I think has to be yes, or at least in most cases, I think in a personal relationship such as marriage then the answer may be NO, not that marriage is the only environment, but outside a committed relationship I don't think its possible to be D/s. At least not for me! I'm willing to total submit in time to the right female, but it's not going to be easy from both points of view, I'm just a normal male with all the faults that implies.

I have no problem in calling a Domina Miss or Ma'am it seems only a remark of respect, I agree respect is earned, although I've learnt that many of the Domina's ask me to use there first names once we've get to know each other. In my journals I've even reversed the case of the personal pronouns.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 11

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 6:04:41 PM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

quote:

Perhaps some only want to role-play D/s. I have enjoyed D/s role-play, that isn’t the issue. The issue is that so many claiming: “please own me and make me your slave” turn out to be temper tantrum divas. I was told by one boy that he expected me to rip the submission right out of him. I don’t think he realised he was dealing with a sane woman.

On the other hand, I do love a challenge. I do love taking a strong “socially dominant” person and getting them to submit to me. I guess there is somewhat of a “take-down” which can be a hot seduction game. And resistance play can be fun now and then as well. But when it seems the relationship is more based on resistance play then respect of the D/s dynamic, that is when frustration sets in for me.

Milady A.-

I too, look for a challenge. In fact, I'd say I require it- I want to work for it, I want something that I have to win- not something that is given to me- something that I have to earn. The prize is worth the price, IMX.

That said, there lies somewhere between being a challenge, and being challenging, between making me work for it, and making work for , a line where it just stops working for me.

Stay warm,

Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 12

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 6:35:29 PM

GrandpaLash

Posts: 133
Joined: 1/8/2005
Status: offline

I recently released a sub I was in love with for precisely the reason that I realised she was role-playing 'slave', but in effect wanted a service Dom to satisfy her sexual/masochistic needs, and who topped ferociously from the bottom to get them met. A 'do-me' sub. Actually, an alpha masochist.

I like a challenge, but all-out war is another matter. My other (primary) slave is sometimes a little too easy, but I'd rather that than have the sort of demanding role player you are talking about and I released.

Perhaps the comment that role-play is the start, and then those who are genuinely submissive fall into it as a natural part of themselves is not too far from the truth. I probably role-played for my first 12 months as a Dom (actually a bedroom Top, but I grew out of that), and have learned to role-play Master, a different kettle of fish IMO, and one I'm not sure I want to persevere with - too much work LOL. Dom is what I am, and I want a submissive, not a role-player. I'm with you.

Grandpa Lash

_____________________________

Sex without D/s is about as pointless as D/s without sex

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 13

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 7:51:01 PM

Goodmix

Posts: 86
Joined: 8/4/2004
Status: offline

IMHO,

i think there are a lot of people on this & other sites that claim to want a D/s or M/s relationships, but it is more of a fantasy for them ~ to varying degrees.
SOME hide behind the safety of the internet and may never intend on meeting, while others may have a real time relationship, but do not take it seriously.

Again, in my opinion (and i consider myself submissive) ~ i whole heartedly agree that it is not about what i like to do, whether or not i feel like doing something, i do it ~ because it brings Him pleasure. There are times i am tired, or having a hard day, but i try to put my best foot forward and remember how much pleasure i can bring Him.

it is also not about what i want Him to do. if that makes sense? (i should not be trying to get him to do something that suits my needs) As my Dom, i should have enough trust in Him that he knows my needs and is considering them for both of us ~ and i should have enough respect for Him, that whatever decisions he makes i am ok with.

If it was all about what i wanted then i would be the one in control, then i wouldn't be the submissive!

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 14

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 8:12:57 PM

GentleLady

Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
That got me to thinking are we role-playing D/s or are we D/s?

I have asked Myself that same question a number of times and so far I keep coming up with different answers. To a certain extent we all 'role-play' our various roles in life as we learn them. Watch a child playing house to see this in action. For some of us the BDSM role is one we slip into and out of during the day or during our lives. There is nothing wrong with this. We step in and out of our roles as husband/wife, mother/father, employer/employee all the time. For others the role becomes a way of life the same way gender does. I am always the female gender but at different ages this becomes a mute point.

If what you are and the way you (and those living with you) are living adds enjoyment to you or increases the satisfaction you feel being alive then does it matter if it is role playing or not? Yes it matters if smeone else if being hurt or if you are role playing to fool someone or take advantage of them or use them but that is not the way I mean My statement. The difference between role and non-role is a very fine line....ask the Queen of England who must live a role 24/7.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 15

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 8:23:14 PM

Gemeni

Posts: 255
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline

I don't think it is so much role playing....and needs do need to be met.

But Dominants have feelings as well,, And if we feel we are being put in the service role by a bottom...and that there is somehow an imbalance in this.....It sort of makes us feel like fakes,does it not?

Most of us already realize that we only have what little power that is granted us in this society,so when even the illusion of that is stipped away by the behavior of a bottom,it's kind of hard to take. It's nice to be seen as more than a pleasure toy. And difficult not to resent disrespect.

My take is this,do what makes you happy! And if you are not getting back from a person what you need to be happy-quit giving to them.

You get what you put up with.

(in reply to GentleLady)

Post #: 16

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 9:01:54 PM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

Hello Angelika,

I was just involved in another thread that touched on a similar theme. Maybe I can get through this one without some of the tortured logic and comical end-zone dancing (no pun intended) and chest thumping that ended up blowing that one out.

quote:

When I look back at a lot of the dynamics that I’ve had in the past, I realise that for a great deal of them, it was easy to get them to submit to activities they liked but where it got tough was when it was something that they didn’t like?

That got me to thinking are we role-playing D/s or are we D/s?

If you are doing scene-play, or limited duration sessioning, I don't see how it can be anything other than role-play, or scene-play, or power-play, or whatever you might call it. Everything that I know about those kinds of activities suggests that parties to them usually go in expecting mutual gratification. The "dom" (or probably more properly the top) wants to do what the sub (or probably more properly the bottom) wants to have done. It's not so much dominance and submission as it is a serendipitous alignment of desires. Too, I think that any expectation beyond mutual gratification within the bounds of a scene or session that lasts from a few hours to a week or two is probably unrealistic, and I'll tell you why.

First of all, one doesn't get the complete submission of another human being at the wave of a hand. Generally, it doesn't end with a collaring. That's where it begins. Giving over your life to someone else isn't easy. A new slave will test the strength of the chains that hold them, so to speak, for a good while before they feel securely in bondage. There is a process involved of them coming to accept that the power differential is real, and isn't going to vanish when the "game faces" come off.

Secondly, it takes some time to socialize a slave. Most new slaves come to their collar in a position of need, in one way or another. Until they get stronger, and are no longer operating out of their own need, but out of devotion and a deep desire to be of service, they aren't really worth a whole lot to their owner. The owner of a slave sometimes has to take a rather long view of things to keep from deciding that a slave is more trouble than they are worth long before they reach whatever potential they have. I have been training a slave for nearly half a year now, and while she is far stronger, and more devoted than she was in the beginning, she is still operating out of her own need a good deal of the time. I am confident that she will be an exceptionally valuable slave to me in time, but it does take patience, work, and persistance. It's not something that one can remotely hope to accomplish in a few hours, days, or even weeks.

To my way of thinking, genuine D/s, or M/s if you prefer are life choices, and as with any life choice, a commitment to sustained engagement over a length of time is required to reap any real benefit. Nothing that I'm saying here should be construed as a slight to scene or session players. I used to know a man that I respected a great deal who was my polar opposite. He would proudly say that while he was a "heavy session player" he would never want to own a slave, whereas I don't do session play at all, but I do own slaves. While I had little in common with him, I respected him because he was comfortable with his own way, and didn't feel the need to call it something that it wasn't. There really aren't any better/worse value judgements to be made here. The important thing is to be clear, both to yourself and to those with whom you interact, about what you find fulfilling.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 17

RE: Give or Take? - 2/20/2005 11:59:26 PM

1RottenJohnny

Posts: 113
Joined: 11/12/2004
Status: offline

I think it's inversely proportional.

Less experience or desire to be in a relationship = more role-play.
More experience or desire to be in a relationship = less role-play.

_____________________________

Compassion is a wonderful thing...taken in moderation!

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 18

RE: Give or Take? - 2/21/2005 3:22:45 AM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
That said, there lies somewhere between being a challenge, and being challenging, between making me work for it, and making work for , a line where it just stops working for me.

Exactly!!

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 19

RE: Give or Take? - 2/21/2005 4:57:10 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfeelings
I think any communication that's starts by saying their willing to submit in any language has to be someone looking for an experience a role-player, you can't submit to someone you don't know

It's so obvious, huh? If I were a submissive, I wouldn't be emailing people I don't know telling them to take me and do what they want with me. Unless of course I had a death wish. Seriously. I mean, boys... I might just be a maniac! <weg>

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfeelings
I've spend a great deal of time trying to understand my needs and wants, its sometimes difficult but I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that this isn't the type of site for me, I'm looking for a long-term relationship with a dominate woman, She should be the first thing I think about in the morning and the last thing at night, I know it's a little idealistic but through the good and the bad she will be the most important part of my life. The problem is that where do I go, because on the normal dating sites my need for loving female authority would be seen as somewhat perverted, anyway I didn't mean this to be all about me. The submissive self obsession is another topic, although I guess its all part of the game playing.

I have bad news for you subfeelings. No site is right for you then. There is not a website on this planet that exists for the purpose of hooking up people to fall in love, whether they be kinky or not.

What a site like collarme.com is good for is to hook you up with people. I have made great friends via this site. And not just in Montréal. Whether it be talking on the phone for hours to with stef in Boston or Beckett in Greenville Tennessee or having dinner with Lawrence in Manhattan or chatting with a number of regulars here, the friendships I've made here are priceless to me.

If you want to meet women likeminded to you, get involved with people in your hometown and network. Believe me, there are people who want that same real dynamic as you everywhere in the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfeelings
I think BDSM by its very nature is all about game playing, your question are we role-playing D/s I think has to be yes, or at least in most cases, I think in a personal relationship such as marriage then the answer may be NO, not that marriage is the only environment, but outside a committed relationship I don't think its possible to be D/s. At least not for me!

Well I half agree with you on this one. I believe D/s requires a certain amount of commitment. But I don't think it has to be something monogamous and/or marriage. But it definitely needs an agreement, a foundation, a bond.

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfeelings
I have no problem in calling a Domina Miss or Ma'am it seems only a remark of respect [...]

Exactly. I always wonder why some don't want to put their best foot forward.

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 2/21/2005 4:58:51 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to subfeelings)

Post #: 20

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