A Minor Revelation (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:01:46 AM)

For some reason I've been thinking a lot about why people's sexual practices (anyone's, just generally speaking) should be considered odd - at all (I am speaking of things not involving murder, and the usual "no no"s, of course. Some things I think are illegal because they are hurtful and I understand that part). But - I am talking of wiiwd - the rest of it. All of it. 

I've taken for granted mostly, I suppose, that what other people want to do sexually is just really not anyone's business except theirs -and I've felt this way almost my entire life (at least as long as I've been thinking about sexual relationships). 

I'm not trying to be or sound "liberal", or "tolerant". I honestly don't think bdsm (anymore) is really very "exotic", "strange", or even care that it's not practiced by more people (supposedly about 10% of the population - or whatever, give or take a few percentage points).

I suppose I did for a few months, when I first learned of it. It had some "intrigue", and still does because there are so many things I can be excited about (and am) that I've not yet tried as far as activity. I also do think this way promotes more intimacy and trust (which is probably the main attraction for me - implements used, aside).

But - it just is what it is - it's what some people want to do

Why is this considered alternately by some to be: "Evil","exotic " and-or "strange"? It even seems to be considered this way by some in the bdsm world ("Exotic". Some practices, anyway). I am not trying to sound like Margaret Mead or anything - but am curious as to why ths would be so.

Maybe it's me - maybe I am the weirdo. But I just don't think there's much out there that really is all that strange (and I never really have, honestly - even as a kid. Of course as a kid I am not talking about learning about sexual things, but other things perhaps considered "freaky" or "odd" by some people, (or almost everyone it seemed).

It wasn't like I was being "tolerant" . My attitude (really) was pretty much: "Okay, whatever they are or want to do- that's fine. Next".

Of course there are things that are not to my taste. But - I don't give two hoots who else want to do them.

**I am wondering why this bdsm stuff, as a whole, is even a big deal to some in the sense that it's considered "apart" from instead of "part of" some spectrum of sexuality that is altogether normal. It's not freaky to me - it's part of being a human being. It's what makes some people feel good.

Why would that be considered odd, or bad - if it isn't hurting any non-consensual people?  Why is it even considered exotic? People think not many others practice it apparently - well - how do they know? And who really cares anyway?

If I want to have sex with a monkey at the top of a palm tree at midnight, for example - why would anyone else ever even care? I am confused.

I've had a judgmental moment here and there, I suppose. But honestly not very many. I just think it's odd the other people (in general, non-bdsm oriented or bdsm affiliates) give a darn what other people do with their sexual lives.

Any comments on this thread topic?

- Susan




drawntothedark -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:07:29 AM)

I have my thoughts on morality. I have a set of morals I do go by and I do belive you can court your sickness right along with your sexuality. BUT I will not say to anyone except child molesters and rapists "Your out of line, and you are sick". That's not my call. I'm no one's judge or jury and thank God for it. I'm not smart enough to be.




akisha -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:14:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

If I want to have sex with a monley at the top of a palm tree at midnight, for example - why would anyone else ever even care? I am confused.

Any comments on this thread topic?

- Susan


In regards to your example. People will care because 1: it's illegal and 2 the monkey can't consent.

As for the rest... well there are many things i don't understand why people like it, there are many things that ick me out and i won't do but as long as the parties involved are adults, humans, legally and mentally able to consent, then it's pretty much live and let live.  There will always be some exceptions though.




drawntothedark -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:17:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

If I want to have sex with a monley at the top of a palm tree at midnight, for example - why would anyone else ever even care? I am confused.

Any comments on this thread topic?

- Susan


In regards to your example. People will care because 1: it's illegal and 2 the monkey can't consent.

As for the rest... well there are many things i don't understand why people like it, there are many things that ick me out and i won't do but as long as the parties involved are adults, humans, legally and mentally able to consent, then it's pretty much live and let live.  There will always be some exceptions though.


Ooops forgot about the animals. Okay so child molesters, rapists and animal abusers. all three I'll call out.





SusanofO -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:20:39 AM)

I guess I am talking about people considering it immoral. But mostly, too - just people considering other people's sex lives, period. I know laws concerning non-consensual stuff are there for a reason (and I agree with that).

But generally, why would anyone even care what anyone else does sexually, outside of non-consensual stuff? I mean, even within the bdsm world - if I don't want to do Scat and someone else does, what exactly does that mean? Nothing. It means (to me) they want to do it and I don't - and that's about all it means, really. I mena - why the h _ell would I care? It's not my life.

This isn't a rant about judgmentalism. Really.

It's more like mystified curiosity that there is some social  phenomenon at work that for some reason I am not privvy learning more about. It seems to have eluded me almost completely. It is fascinating and scary at the same time. Maybe I am thinking too much about it. I don't know. I was just rolling it around in my brain and it wasn't getting anywhere, so  thought I'd pour it out here and see where it went.
Thanks for listening.

- Susan




MasterFireMaam -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:20:44 AM)

One simple reason is that a lot of people think that pleasure, in general, is mostly related to sins. Since it's "bad" to willfully sin, it's "bad" to not only enjoy, but (gasp) pursue sexual pleasure. The states were settled by religious fanatics that had, for the most part, been kicked out of wherever they came from. These are the repercussions.

Master Fire




Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:21:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drawntothedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

If I want to have sex with a monley at the top of a palm tree at midnight, for example - why would anyone else ever even care? I am confused.

Any comments on this thread topic?

- Susan


In regards to your example. People will care because 1: it's illegal and 2 the monkey can't consent.

As for the rest... well there are many things i don't understand why people like it, there are many things that ick me out and i won't do but as long as the parties involved are adults, humans, legally and mentally able to consent, then it's pretty much live and let live.  There will always be some exceptions though.


Ooops forgot about the animals. Okay so child molesters, rapists and animal abusers. all three I'll call out.


This illustrates that everyone has limits to what they will tolerate.  It's just a matter of where each, personally, draws the line. 
 
And there's no point in trying to elevate one delineation as more accurate than another.  Everyone thinks their own line is drawn correctly, while others draw theirs capriciously and arbitrarily.
 
Welcome to the human race.
 
John




Serenityy -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:23:12 AM)

While I am a firm believer in minding my own business; even I have limits to what I will ignore. Activities that either inadvertently or purposefully include those who are unable to 'willingly, knowingly, and coherently' vocalize/express consent are one of those limits.




drawntothedark -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:26:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: drawntothedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

If I want to have sex with a monley at the top of a palm tree at midnight, for example - why would anyone else ever even care? I am confused.

Any comments on this thread topic?

- Susan


In regards to your example. People will care because 1: it's illegal and 2 the monkey can't consent.

As for the rest... well there are many things i don't understand why people like it, there are many things that ick me out and i won't do but as long as the parties involved are adults, humans, legally and mentally able to consent, then it's pretty much live and let live.  There will always be some exceptions though.


Ooops forgot about the animals. Okay so child molesters, rapists and animal abusers. all three I'll call out.


This illustrates that everyone has limits to what they will tolerate.  It's just a matter of where each, personally, draws the line. 
 
And there's no point in trying to elevate one delineation as more accurate than another.  Everyone thinks their own line is drawn correctly, while others draw theirs capriciously and arbitrarily.
 
Welcome to the human race.
 
John


I feel the "law" is written on everyone's brian. Look at the laws for different faiths. They all  have laws against these things. I would say that it's pretty much universal.




MaryT -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:26:41 AM)

Traces of left over Puritanism is one reason.  Another is that BDSM attracts some fringe elements, and we get to read about their crimes in the paper.  I think the perception of something mentally wrong with practitioners is especially difficult for people who work with kids.  Locally, you would want to be deep in the closet if you were a teacher and simply gay, let alone  associated with an activity looks a lot like violence.  It spooks people.





gypsygrl -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:27:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I guess I am talking about people considering it immoral. But mostly, too - just people considering other people's sex lives, period. I know laws concerning non-consensual stuff are there for a reason (and I agree with that).

But generally, why would anyone even care what anyone else does sexually, outside of non-consensual stuff? I mean, even within the bdsm world - if I don't wan to do Scat and someone else does, what exactly does that mean? Nothing. It means (to me) they want to do it and I don't - and that's about all it means, really. I mena - why the h _ell would I care? It's not my life.

This isn't a rant about judgmentalism. Really.

It's more like mystified curiosity that there is some social  phenomenon at work that for some reason I am not privvy learning more. It is fascinating and scary at the same time. Maybe I am thinking too much about it. I don't know. I was just rolling it around in my brain and it wasn't getting anywhere, so  thought I'd pour it out here and see where it went.
Thanks for listening.

- Susan



I'm often mystified in the same way.  I'm like, "Errrm...why should I care what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home?"  I'm busy enough worrying about my own life and responsibilities I really don't see the point of adding on by worrying about someone else's stuff.




PONYSEEKER -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:28:17 AM)

I think its because people seem to proccesss sexuality the same way they do religeon with the same results and because people have a tendency to destory what is unlike them or what they cant understand hence why there is only one kind of huminoid here. BDSM also seems to be a place where a lot of rapists ect. seem to find a home.  As an example I have talked with like four woman on here that on there first meetings it turned out to be raped attempts.  Thats got to be the highest percentage I have ever seen with one group and although as far as I know BDSM has been considered normal since the mid 80's it is very easy for a dom to cross the line.  It also threatens that whole womans sufferage thing.




crouchingtigress -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:30:05 AM)

to me, the answer is that our country is founded by judeo Christian principals the predominant religion was Christian and our government and our monetary system is deeply ingrained with their social mores.
 
Christians have had a long standing reputation for being adversarial, invasive, judgemental and bull headed all in the name of god.
 
They like to go in to your country and or your tribe and tell you that what you are doing is all wrong, and use fear and intimidation so that you will join up with them and give them 10 percent of your holdings.
 
this is a great business model if you were unethecal....think about it,...i sell widgets, and i get a posse to invade non-widget owning countries and the convince them with fear and intimidation that with out widgets they will push a rock up a fire mountain for eternity and so then the buy in for billions of dollars...
 
not unlike mob protection money........... but boy did i just go off on a tangent.....ooops.
 
you asked why folks seem so nosy and quick to condemn folks that live differently then they do...and that to me is why.
 
 




PONYSEEKER -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:31:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

Traces of left over Puritanism is one reason. 



Puritanism was not 'non sexual'  woman and men who were married were required to have sex withing certain time frames otherwise they were not good christians and were locked in the stocks in the public square with a sign saying that they did not have sex with there spouse opening them to public humiliation




SusanofO -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:32:03 AM)

akisha: Well, okay, the monkey can't consent. That was a bad example. But I mean, suppose it's "something way outside the realm of most people's experience." Yet involves two consenual human beings. Or (not to go off on a tangent, but) -suppose I taught the moneky sign language and asked him/her if he/she wanted to "jump my bones" and he/she indicated "yes." Suppose, just for a moment, that the monkey consented. What then?  Why would anyone care? We're in an isolated tree in a remote area of Columbia. Nobody can even see us.
Why would anyone care?

- Susan 




PONYSEEKER -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:34:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

-suppose I taught the moneky sign language and asked him/her if he/she wanted to "jump my bones" and he/she indicated "yes." Suppose, just for a moment, that the monkey consented. What then? 
- Susan 


I think if you were in the state of Washington you would be okay then....LOL




Rover -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:35:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

to me, the answer is that our country is founded by judeo Christian principals the predominant religion was Christian and our government and our monetary system is deeply ingrained with their social mores.
 
Christians have had a long standing reputation for being adversarial, and bull headed all in the name of god.
 
They like to go in to your country and or your tribe and tell you that what you are doing is all wrong, and use fear and intimidation so that you will join up with them and give them 10 percent of your holdings.
 
this is a great business model if you were unethecal....think about it,...i sell widgets, and i get a posse to invade non-widget owning countries and the convince them with fear and intimidation that with out widgets they will push a rock up a fire mountain for eternity and so then the buy in for billions of dollars...
 
not unlike mob protection money........... but boy did i just go off on a tangent.....ooops.
 
you asked why folks seem so nosy and quick to condemn folks that live differently then they do...and that to me is why.
 


You attribute those characteristics to Christianity?  Rather ignores history, doesn't it?  What about the Romans, Greeks, Turks, Mongols, Egyptians, Carpathians, Chinese, Japanese, godless Soviets, (this list could go on indefinitely) and even today's radical Islamists?
 
John




Serenityy -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:36:04 AM)

quote:

suppose I taught the moneky sign language and asked him/her if he/she wanted to "jump my bones" and he/she indicated "yes."

For the sake of argument only in regards to the consent issue
 
yes, you can teach a monkey sign language; but, can you guarantee that the monkey 'understands' and 'comprehends' what you are asking it to consent to?




mistoferin -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:36:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I'm not trying to be or sound "liberal", or "tolerant". I honestly don't think bdsm (anymore) is really very "exotic", "strange", or even care that it's not practiced by more people (supposedly about 10% of the population - or whatever, give or take a few percentage points).


quote:

  I am wondering why this bdsm stuff, as a whole, is even a big deal to some in the sense that it's considered "apart" from instead of "part of" some spectrum of sexuality that is altogether normal. It's not freaky to me - it's part of being a human being. It's what makes some people feel good.


Your answer is right there in the top quote. I'm not sure if I agree with that statistic...but if it's true it puts "us" outside of the comfort zone of 90% of everyone else. People are afraid of, curious about, often more judgemental of that which they can not personally understand or relate to or do not participate in.

In addition, much of WIITWD is sexual in nature. Anytime sexuality is at issue it is open to scrutiny under the promiscuity and immorality microscope. Sexuality is an uncomfortable topic to society as a whole.

Another thing that factors in is stereotyping. When people think of BDSM the vision in their minds is the one they have glimpsed on porn sites and magazines. They don't "see" the loving....they don't "see" the care and thought...they don't "see" the trust, etc. All they see is naked people with alot of leather, whips and chains apparently "abusing" each other.. They don't have an understanding that contradicts that vision.

It's not just something that is exclusive to WIITWD. For example, I have always been involved with bikers. The men I have been with are good, kind and considerate people. I am very particular and would not be in a relationship with someone who is of low character. But to the masses, they don't "see" past the beards or the leather jackets. We pull up at red lights and people lock their car doors. I have had mother's jerk their children away from me in a way that suggested that they feared that I might either infect them or eat them. I have had people who thought that because I was with a biker it meant that all of his brothers could drag me off by my hair and use me at their will. Hollywood played a huge part in creating those images and has done very little to change them. That is what people "see" and they have no personal understanding of it so therefore are afraid of it.




SusanofO -> RE: A Minor Revelation (12/20/2006 10:38:08 AM)

MasterFireMa'am: I think you may have something there. it couldbe part of the puritan-pilgrim heritage.

- Susan




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