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RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/25/2006 7:41:11 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

You know, the real focus of the editorial was CONTRACEPTION. Perhaps you use condoms to prevent issue and avoid diseases. Maybe you are fluid bonded with someone and enjoy the luxury of something merely intended to prevent childbirth. And so it goes...

Some of you haven't two brain cells I think. How could anyone oppose an organization that provides freedom of choice. How could anyone oppose such choice in the first place?

For those of you that prefer pregnancy russian roulette - nothing is stopping you from that very thing!

I find it amazing that on a site of this type we can't even get consensus on the pleasure of freedom for everyone to choose their own way of life. Sure, I have strong opinions. But I am not telling anyone else what to do. I am just revelling in modern freedoms denied to our ancestors.

I do not think they necessarily disagree with the premise that contraceptives are a good thing, I think that the people that are insinuating you are starting a battle over abortion did not bother to read the article

. ASS-U-ME

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 21

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/25/2006 9:07:34 AM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

You know, the real focus of the editorial was CONTRACEPTION. Perhaps you use condoms to prevent issue and avoid diseases. Maybe you are fluid bonded with someone and enjoy the luxury of something merely intended to prevent childbirth. And so it goes...

Some of you haven't two brain cells I think. How could anyone oppose an organization that provides freedom of choice. How could anyone oppose such choice in the first place?

For those of you that prefer pregnancy russian roulette - nothing is stopping you from that very thing!

I find it amazing that on a site of this type we can't even get consensus on the pleasure of freedom for everyone to choose their own way of life. Sure, I have strong opinions. But I am not telling anyone else what to do. I am just revelling in modern freedoms denied to our ancestors.

I do not think they necessarily disagree with the premise that contraceptives are a good thing, I think that the people that are insinuating you are starting a battle over abortion did not bother to read the article. ASS-U-ME

That's a pretty big assumption.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 22

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/25/2006 9:19:37 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Then I will ask, you have a problem with family planning? According to this quote I assumed that you had not read the article...

quote:

sighs* Chain... this is a very old argument and one that I doubt will ever be resolved... here or anywhere else. If you want to play word games, there's plenty on the Random Stupidity thread.

I assumed that the "old argument" that you refer to is about abortion. Since the article was about contraception and reproductive choice (I did not even see the word "abortion" mentioned) I would assume that you were either 1) for unprotected sex that leads to unwanted pregnancies (that "old debate" about whether or not people should have dirty sex). or 2) did not actually read the article, assumed that it was about abortion and jumped Chaingang about it.

If I assumed incorrectly I apologize... you can be as against contraception as you like.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 23

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/25/2006 9:32:00 AM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have been a single mom for years, and I have used planned parenthood for my gynecological needs. I have not always been fortunate enough to have medical insurance, so their low cost testing, birth control, and consultations could have been a literal lifesaver for me and millions of other women.

I sometimes go with people to Planned Parenthood for various reasons and all I can say is that they must be one of the number one prenatal care organizations in the U.S. The place is always full of women who are pregnant or have babies already. Sure, they provide contraceptives and even abortions, but their focus is clearly to educate and guide people to making the correct choices for themselves.
You know, family planning - hence the name Planned Parenthood.

For anyone that doesn't have a regular doctor Planned Parenthood is an ideal place to get all kinds of services. They even provide services to men of various kinds and all manner of STD testing. And if you have the means to pay for your services or just wish to contribute they are always ready to receive donations too.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 24

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/25/2006 11:23:30 AM

losttreasure

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Joined: 12/17/2005
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*sighs* I guess I was too subtle, but nevermind...

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

...According to this quote I assumed that you had not read the article...

quote:

*sighs* Chain... this is a very old argument and one that I doubt will ever be resolved... here or anywhere else. If you want to play word games, there's plenty on the Random Stupidity thread.

You assumed incorrectly; I read the article.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I assumed that the "old argument" that you refer to is about abortion. Since the article was about contraception and reproductive choice (I did not even see the word "abortion" mentioned)...

I would beg to differ on the point of the article.

By the way, though not particularly important, the word "abortion" does appears in the article twice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

...I would assume that you were either 1) for unprotected sex that leads to unwanted pregnancies (that "old debate" about whether or not people should have dirty sex). or 2) did not actually read the article, assumed that it was about abortion and jumped Chaingang about it.

Either assumption would be wrong.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

...Then I will ask, you have a problem with family planning?

No.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If I assumed incorrectly I apologize... you can be as against contraception as you like.

Apology accepted.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 25

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 4:22:54 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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The quote I used in my earlier post is very curious, and I wonder what you think the point of the article was, and how you consider it incendiary. I wonder what points you felt were trying to cause a controversy. I guess I will continue to wonder as you have not really illuminated what your beef was with it, and just seemingly accused another poster of trying to cause a "old debate" over the article that seemed to show how family planning is a good thing. I tend to believe it has been a positive thing too. I had a grandmother that had 10 children, three of them that died in infancy, and perhaps from being born too close together. My own mother had two miscarriages in a row before starting on the pill to limit her family size, having three children one right after the other. Not to mention that a family can use resources to rear less children successfully if having smaller families.

I have noticed that certain right wing groups have a problem with premarital sex, and tend to have a very judgmental attitude about sex, and when one questions their world view, unplanned pregnancies are in retribution for having sex out of wedlock, and the price of "sin". Now I am sure not every right wing Christian feels this way... although I have had many in my acquaintence as friends and family that do (yes I know and respect quite a few right wing fundies... and the feeling is mutual, I realize their views on sin are rather archaic and overlook them). This group is headed up by such unsavory characters as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and their ilk. I am sure most would say anyone posting on this site are going to Hell

. It really doesn't matter to me anymore, I am just thankful they cannot try to control my sexuality via the congress anymore... yes, I am extremely thankful for that one.

I think most young women take forgranted the gains made that have increased their longevity, reproductive health... research into women's health issues still lags far behind men in real research dollars. Since science has made gains in helping women control their reproductive lives it has improved the quality of our lives immensely... and helped us make gains in other arenas as well.. including education, wage earning potential and the like.. all these things were covered in the article in some depth.

So whatever your gripe with the article.. cool beans with me, it is not like I think you should have to share them

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 26

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 4:35:10 PM

missturbation

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With respect to all of you wherever you have a contraception debate an abortion debate will ensue. Its unavoidable.

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 27

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 4:46:04 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Perhaps that is true, but for the life of me I do not understand why that would be!

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 28

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 4:50:14 PM

missturbation

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Probably because lack of use of contraception results in a lot of unwanted pregnancies so it is a pro for using contraception.
Also std's could be used as a pro for contraception but it doesnt cause as much uproar as the unwanted pregnancy issue. Probably because lives are at stake when you start talking abortion.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 29

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 4:55:33 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I see contraception as insurance against pregnancy, therefore contraception=less abortion=less of the thing that so many are against.

I respect other people's views on the whole abortion debate. As long as their opinions are not legislated I really do not care. I think a lot of things are immoral that I do not want to pass laws about.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 30

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 5:00:04 PM

missturbation

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I totally agree. Contraception is an individual choice. Abortion is an individual choice. All i was trying to say is that where there is talk of contraception, things like abortion, std's etc will follow.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 31

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 8:27:10 PM

losttreasure

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Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

The quote I used in my earlier post is very curious, and I wonder what you think the point of the article was, and how you consider it incendiary. I wonder what points you felt were trying to cause a controversy...

Actually, it wasn't the article that I was responding to, it was Chaingang's challenge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

...I guess I will continue to wonder as you have not really illuminated what your beef was with it...

Nor do I care to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

...and just seemingly accused another poster of trying to cause a "old debate" over the article that seemed to show how family planning is a good thing.

Not an accusation, at all. Just an expression of futility over a potential debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So whatever your gripe with the article.. cool beans with me, it is not like I think you should have to share them

I'm glad you feel that way.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 32

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 9:25:52 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

losttreasure

Actually, it wasn't the article that I was responding to, it was Chaingang's challenge

Here was chaingang's opening post as a refresher

quote:

chaingang

"Family Planning Is Family Values"
Cristina Page, December 19, 2006
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/12/19/family_planning_is_family_values.php

How was that challenging?

Hmmm, I fail to understand that

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 33

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 10:31:25 PM

losttreasure

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Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Hmmm, I fail to understand that

Then perhaps revisiting my original comment where you selected the quote might help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

What kind of freedom lover is opposed to choice? You'll have to explain that to me...

*sighs* Chain... this is a very old argument and one that I doubt will ever be resolved... here or anywhere else. If you want to play word games, there's plenty on the Random Stupidity thread.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 34

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 10:40:22 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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I guess I took these comments to be your opinion also

quote:

You know chain, from an evolutionary stand point, I think that your pro-choice groups are just heading for extinction.

FirmKY

and this one

quote:

ohhhhhh ... you are offended?

FirmKY

and this one

quote:

Mighty sensitive there, chain.

I have no idea what "choices" you have made in your life. I don't even know your gender.

Nor particularly care.

But, my statement was both true, and humorous.

I guess you have some emotional baggage that bothers you, which is why you would stoop to insults.

FirmKY

I see someone who is baiting the OP with these comments, and in light of this, and seeing you are involved with him, answer on other threads for him, I tended to think you were posting condescending remarks to incite chaingang to fight both of you about a topic his thread does not even really talk about... perhaps I was mistaken.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 35

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 10:54:37 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

And, no doubt, it’s also the reason that not one pro-life group in the U.S. supports the use of contraception even though it's the only proven way to prevent abortion.

I was not aware of this, not one pro-life group supports the use of contraceptions even when the people are married?

for those who are anti-choice, are you anti-contraception too? Because family planning is about preventing not only unwanted pregnancies, but also creating optimal reproductive health for women of child bearing years so when they do have children they will be more likely to be healthy and happy.

I can't say for sure that it is official policy of every anti choice group to oppose contraceptives but I can say this, in the early 90's the leaders of the major anti choice groups were definitely anti contraceptive. I was helping a reporter research anti choice groups and since at the time I was a clean cut fresh out of the USN guy it was relatively easy for me to get into these groups meetings and after some effort I got into several members only sessions. In one very memorable one Randall Terry, the convicted terrorist who ran Operation Rescue back then, made clear his goal and the goal of those allied with him wasn't the Roe v Wade SCOTUS decision but the earlier Griswold v Connecticut ruling that established the right to privacy. Now what precisely did Griswold's right to privacy cover? The right for married couples to practice artificial contracepticion.

The thing that Terry pushed hard was that getting a SCOTUS ruling overturning the right to privacy not only allows states to ban abortion but that many states had laws outlawing contraception that had never been repealed after Griswold and that if the right to privacy goes out the window then those laws go right back into effect.

I was shocked to the core by this and talked to several people I knew who were in other anti choice groups, they all acknowledged that overturning Griswold was the unltimate goal and outlawing artificial contraceptives was something many of them strongly believed in.

Unfortunately the article that resulted from all of my research never got published due in part to Mr. Terry accepting a deal which required him to get out of the anti abortion movement permanently. Last I saw he was one of the "leaders" abusing Terry Schiavo's situation for their own ends.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 36

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 11:00:24 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Thanks for that heads up DomKen. I know some people that are against abortion that would not want to stop people from using contraceptives. I need to learn more about the individuals in the religious far right wing so I can point people to their way out there views. It could change minds about supporting the same candidates that these people do for public office. Information is a powerful thing

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 37

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 11:30:24 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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A good place to start is a guy from your state, Howard Ahmanson jr.. A major shareholder in Washington Mutual and a profoundly wealthy man with beliefs that should cause alarm amongst most anyone.

Then there is D. James Kennedy, pastor of a Florida mega church and televangelist, who openly campaigns for the institution of an old testament theocracy. I don't know about anyone else but I'm not at all interested in obeying all the stuff in Leviticus.

Then of course is the whole Christian Reconstructionist/Dominionist movement of which the above gentlemen are leaders.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 38

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 11:32:09 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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My Daddy just gave me a book to read which I am hoping to start soon enough called "American Theocracy". It sounds as though it is going to be a great read, have you heard of it?

And thanks for the information, I will google this.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 39

RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/26/2006 11:42:35 PM

DomKen

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I've read it and it's excellent. I think the most telling part is that the author was once a leading GOP strategist who helped get Nixon elected in '68 and since then has become disillusioned with his party's willing embrace of the far right.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 40

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