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RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 10:24:11 AM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		It is unfortunate that so much obvious spite and ugliness has had to be infused into what might otherwise have been an interesting and rewarding dialogue.
I could understand if the negative sentiments being expressed were about the topic at hand, but it seems to me they are about people's distaste for other posters.
After you see so much of a certain behavior, and so thinly veiled you really do have to resign yourself to just considering the source and utlizing the BLOCK button.
...and don't UNBLOCK for fear of suffering Mrs. Lot's fate.



_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 4:41:36 PM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

After you see so much of a certain behavior, and so thinly veiled...


I agree.  Much better to simply avoid the conflict.

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 5:30:17 PM   
MrrPete


Posts: 614
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

What kind of freedom lover is opposed to choice? You'll have to explain that to me...



This freedom lover chooses life and is opposed to the choice of death in or out of the womb


_____________________________

Awrabest,

Mr. Pete

Boycott Citgo

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 5:36:10 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Those are great choices for you. Leave everyone else the fuck alone.

BTW, I guess you never jack off and kill your seed where it lands?

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to MrrPete)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 5:41:35 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Ouch - theres xmas spirit for ya lol

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 8:01:42 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

What kind of freedom lover is opposed to choice? You'll have to explain that to me...



This freedom lover chooses life and is opposed to the choice of death in or out of the womb



Someone else that equates contraception with abortion... hmmmm... lets go back to the days women were barefoot and pregnant and had no choice at all. Forget the learnin them abcs and 123s too... makes us uppity.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to MrrPete)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 9:00:53 PM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrrPete

This freedom lover chooses life and is opposed to the choice of death in or out of the womb



Someone else that equates contraception with abortion... hmmmm... lets go back to the days women were barefoot and pregnant and had no choice at all. Forget the learnin them abcs and 123s too... makes us uppity.


Hmmm... this looks very familiar.

Oh wait, I recognize this tactic...

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

That is a straw man attempt to defend the way you posted your views...

quote:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
  1. Person A has position X. (In this case MrrPete is against abortion.)
  2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X). (Julia implies that anyone against abortion must also be against contraception.)
  3. Person B attacks position Y.  (Julia attacks the idea of being against contraception by suggesting it removes all choices for a woman and equates it with preferring women to be uneducated... a straw man within a straw man.  )
  4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.  (So Julia "shows" that being against abortion is wrong.)
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.


http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html


< Message edited by losttreasure -- 12/31/2006 9:11:24 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 9:08:23 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

never been sure if I was pro-life or pro choice


Thanks for saying that. I'd always thought I was the only person on Earth who had trouble landing squarely in one camp or the other.

(in reply to mgdartist)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 10:10:36 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Tell me what the point of the thread is again?

Oh that is right it is about CONTRACEPTION AND NOT ABORTION. I just thought I would raise my voice since so many are so confused about the topic

Edited to add I have conflicted feelings about abortion myself. I just for the life of me cannot understand those who have made this about abortion when this thread was never about that. It was always about family planning.

Geesh, what is up with that?

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/31/2006 10:13:53 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to losttreasure)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 10:15:06 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Oh what we call bringing up one topic to distract from another is:

Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.
quote:


Description of Red HerringA Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
  1. Topic A is under discussion.
  2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
  3. Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 12/31/2006 11:22:11 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		This article is not very good at all, it is really about twisting terms to avoid direct use of the word abortion, but including terms typically inferred to include abortion. Thus one can't be suprised that people include abortion in their response.

Since when has Family Planning just been about contraception. And since when have the term Pro-Choice and Pro-Life been seperate from abortion, they use all those terms in the article including abortion. Personally, that article is just trying to re-define common terms by excluding certain portions of the accepted meaning.

If the article was about contraception solely. Wouldn't the title be Contraception is Family Values. Instead of the Catch all Family Planning is Family Values.
HRMmm.

Family Planning: would this term not encompass abortion? Or is abortion not  family planning?
Pro-Choice: When has this term not included abortion whether expressly mentioned or not? Honestly, no one thinks of just contraception in relation to the term Pro-choice.
Pro-Life: This term has always been associated with being against abortion.

The article also mentions planned parenthood, UMMM, what are these people known for? Sure they may do other things besides abortions but that is what they are famous for.

So, someone is going to write an article filled with terms that 99% of the time are used in reference to abortion, and somehow people are supposed to not associate it to abortion, and just think contraception?

HMMMM, ok.

The paper doesn't mention divorce rates, it doesn't mention the mental well-being of children compared to the 50's. It doesn't mention single mother households. Basicly the article mentions additional money becuase today most of the time both parents work full time, as if that is a good thing for raising kids, and that dads have a positive impact on their kids lives. Oh and people cheat less in marriage now. And most of these "facts" aren't cited.

I'm all for contraception, and think that is a great thing, and only want more of it. But that article is C- work for an freshman if one is grading by honesty of presentation and citing "facts". Hell, they may be true or just pulled out of her ass. If it is being graded on sprucing up negative stereotypes associated with keywords normally used in relation to abortion. B- at best.

IMO.




(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 5:53:20 AM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
Family Planning: would this term not encompass abortion? Or is abortion not  family planning?


Could be just me, but I usually interpret the word "planning" as meaning something that is done in advance or prior to an event (ie starting or adding to a family).
I have never met a woman who has expressed that she plans to have an unwanted pregnancy and abort.


_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 6:02:20 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Tell me what the point of the thread is again?

Oh that is right it is about CONTRACEPTION AND NOT ABORTION. I just thought I would raise my voice since so many are so confused about the topic

Edited to add I have conflicted feelings about abortion myself. I just for the life of me cannot understand those who have made this about abortion when this thread was never about that. It was always about family planning.

Geesh, what is up with that?


Let me put this as simply as I possibly can... the article may indeed extoll the benefits of contraception, but the premise of contraception being a good thing is simply used as support for the author's eclipsed assertion and judgement.

This entire article is a study in logical fallacies; so many examples are present that even the thought of identifying them all is daunting.  So much so, that it's an exercise that I've avoided as satisfying your curiosity hasn't been worth the effort.

Suffice it to say, that without directly stating so, the author attempts to draw the reader to a conclusion that I do not agree with and believe to be false. 

I will state again, I have no problem with family planning.

By the way, a red herring fallacy would not apply in this case because Topic A has not been abandoned.  Of course, you have to understand what Topic A is to begin with.




(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 6:06:25 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

It is unfortunate that so much obvious spite and ugliness has had to be infused into what might otherwise have been an interesting and rewarding dialogue.
I could understand if the negative sentiments being expressed were about the topic at hand, but it seems to me they are about people's distaste for other posters.
After you see so much of a certain behavior, and so thinly veiled you really do have to resign yourself to just considering the source and utlizing the BLOCK button.
...and don't UNBLOCK for fear of suffering Mrs. Lot's fate.




My thoughts exactly. New Year, same old stupid snarky shit.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 7:33:03 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
But that article is C- work for an freshman if one is grading by honesty of presentation and citing "facts".


It's an editorial. The intent is to state a persuasive viewpoint, not to provide endless citation for facts that can probably be disputed anyway.

Further, you claim Planned Parenthood is famous for abortion. I bet the people that actually frequent the clinics consider them famous for a whole host of health services. This opinion of yours does nothing but reveal your own ignorance.

If you don't like the way the "article" is framed, go write your own.


< Message edited by Chaingang -- 1/1/2007 7:36:04 AM >

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 8:28:20 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		Fast Reply:

JustHeather, it's nice to see someone agreeing that abortion does not have a place in family "planning".

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 8:36:04 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Sure, it does. Abortion is a "Plan B" option for anyone that is trying not have any children and is pregnant despite the use of contraceptives (which are not 100% effective BTW). This is called contingency planning - something most bright people trouble themselves about because even the best laid plans are susceptible to failure.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to losttreasure)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 9:07:01 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		I just for the life of me cannot understand those who have made this about abortion when this thread was never about that. It was always about family planning.

I'm at a bit of a loss how you cannot see how a thread about the pro's and con's of contraception would not involve such things as abortion, std's etc. Surely the biggest pro's for contraception are prevention of unwanted pregnancy and std's!!
The choice to use contraception is individual but here on these forums you cannot make others choices as to where the discussion will go. If someones opinion is that this topic includes abortion as a pro of contraception surely that all adds to the discussion?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 9:51:35 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline 		Fast Reply:

So, Chaingang... you assert that any discussion of family planning does indeed include the discussion of abortion as it is a contingency?

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Enlightening Editorial - 1/1/2007 10:10:53 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		I repeat: the main focus of the editorial is contraception.

If you have some kind of abortion fetish, losttreasure - I'd recommend getting that itch scratched. Or perhaps you could start a thread of your own that the rest of us could ignore.

Meet the hand.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to losttreasure)
Profile   Post #: 60
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