What is a brat? (Full Version)

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MasterMonos -> What is a brat? (12/25/2006 7:19:56 PM)

Good evening all on this joyous Christmas,

So listen up folks... Yes I understand that this may piss off a lot of people, and yes, I am fully aware that I am playing devils advocate. However, I would like to simply solicit other peoples point of view... So how you take it is up to you.

Here goes... Why has it become SO hip and cool to be a brat... to act out... to behave like a spoiled little child as a submissive these days?

There appears to be absolutely no shortage of those who feel its "cute" to be a brat... to act like a 16 year old... or to throw temper tantrums, or something of the sort. Then they think its cute, they think being difficult is an endearing quality, and one that we should be happy to take on because its a challenge, and because it indicates that she is a strong person with their own opinions and thoughts, but I have a differing view on the subject, and here's why.

Being a brat isn’t hard... absolutely ANYONE can be a brat and act like a kid... what distinguishes an adult from a child is the adult is expected to have a better control of their actions. Learning to control your actions and your behavior is difficult... and not the easy way out... having restraint is the adult thing to do... Thinking about what you say before you say it is what shows that you are an adult, and that you have the strength to restrain your desire to act out, throw a tantrum, get irate and pissed off that you cant have things your way... being a brat is the easy way.... giving into your feeling of that instant does not show that you are a strong person... in my opinion it actually shows that you have no inner strength at all, and that you are prone to throw caution to the wind and just let your feelings get the best of you, even if it may be the wrong feeling, and one that you may come to regret after the fact... but again... its become hip... men find it cute, and women call it strength and integrity.

Strength comes from sacrifice.... strength comes from restraining your feeling of that INSTANT, and thinking about things before you act... or taking the adult approach of communicating your feelings in a calm manner, and perhaps trying to understand those feelings. Being a brat in my opinion does nothing but show your immaturity, your lack of self control, your lack of restraint, your lack of willingness to sacrifice anything and allow yourself time to understand why you might be asked to make such a sacrifice. For example:
When a child is in the cereal isle of a grocery store, and he or she picks out 3 different types of cereal they like and absolutely want... that’s natural for a kid... they see an endless selection, and they want it all... why? Because they have no restraint.... no self control, and no understanding of compromise. And when the mother or father says to the child no sorry you cant have all 3, but I'll let you have 2... what does the kid do? More often than not, the kid is not going to understand, and will be upset, and might either cry, or get upset, or throw a tantrum saying I want it I want it I want it I want it... and act up. If anyone was to see that spectacle, they would view the child as throwing a tantrum... not as cute, or wow... look at that kid... he's strong and he's just showing how they have their own opinions or strength of character... you'd think they were just being a brat... plain and simple. So why is it when a submissive does it we're expected to think that it shows strength? Why is it when a submissive does it we're expected to view it as a quality, rather than an outright pain in the ass?

Now you can either read the following and go.... "Hmm... perhaps he's got a point" or more than likely the 90% of you that this applies to will read it, and think to yourself, "This guy is a jerk, or he's not a real man because he doesn’t know how to deal with us "Special" people and think to themselves... well I'm not going to compromise on any of the things that are important to me, because I shouldn’t have to... Well that doesn’t indicate being an adult... that indicates your selfishness, and your desire for the good ole American instant gratification... I want it now... so I HAVE to have it... Now that’s just ONE aspect of a brat... and just this one aspect does not apply to them all... however it is an indication of being a brat overall.
Now let the comments begin about how being a brat is such a good thing... and how I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about LOL...



unsung -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 7:29:24 PM)

My response will be short, I don't relate to 'brat' , I find them and the behaviour unsettling.  Having fun in a fun way is one thing, being a brat another.  I dislike the later.



MaryT -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 7:34:35 PM)

I guess I wonder if you are talking about someone who is your own life right now, the way people behave in chat, etc.  Are you talking about a r/l Dom and sub relationship or cyber stuff?

My idea of a brat is pretty much the same as a SAM, someone who irritates tops to get their attention.  It's very common, and welcome, in many groups targeted specifically towards spanking fetishes.  I also saw it years ago in BDSM chat between a Dom and sub that I knew personally, people who didn't behave that way in r/l.  So, again - are you talking about real time activity or cyber stuff?

MaryT



AquaticSub -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 7:43:24 PM)

Because some of our dominants like to have a reason to throw us across their knee and spank us.


I can be a bratty sub, depending on how you look at it. Both of us know exactly what is going on. He knows when I'm craving a "punishment", and no begging for it is not the same as having your wrist yanked and being thrown on the bed in "anger". He also has a very specific tone and when it's used, I shut up because that's when I'm actually upsetting him.

Do I pitch in a fit in public when I don't get my way? No. If it actually matters to me to that degree I simply say "This makes me unhappy. Can we talk about it later?" Will I "steal" some food from his plate in a resturant? Yes, because it makes him laugh. Will I "act up" to be "punished"? Hell yes and you call that bratty all you want. It's what we like, and more importantly to me, it's what he likes. When I see a sub being "bratty" around their dom, it doesn't really bother me because it makes them happy. As long as they aren't being bratty outside of their relationships.

On the other hand, I have run into some really bloody bratty dominants. I socialize in a somewhat d/s circle and I swear... if they lose in an RPG they pitch a fit. If, while trying to RP with them, I decide my character really wouldn't do what they want them to do they pitch a fit. I'm talking about circumstances that are completely removed from BDSM contexts and I don't belong to these men in any way. They really make me want to take a crop and introduce them to the receiving end. Being a dominant doesn't give you a free pass to everything you want in life from everyone, including your teachers, your classmates, your friends and submissives who don't belong to you.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 7:47:56 PM)

Reposted:

I am not sure why so many people think you can't be witty and amusing and have fun and show personality unless you're being a brat.  The most common thing I hear from brats suggests that they feel that if they aren't bratty, then they will be repressed, bland, and boring.  So perhaps they are acting out as a way to fight against being ordinary.

There may also be a taste of the "force me" in brats.  They are oh so proud and oh so strong until the ONE comes to them and somehow transforms them into a meek and obedient girl- it is only HIS true power and honor which can tame the wild beast.  It's a form of "do me" and definitely another type that can't reconcile being submissive AND being a full person.

Why adults think it's ok to act like a brat in public I have no idea.  Just because it's kinky doesn't mean it's ok to be rude. 

For me, being a brat isn't a positive thing at all, and I don't associate with brats. 

http://www.collarchat.com/m_480396/mpage_4/key_brat/tm.htm#485762
What's your definition of "bratty submissive"?

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=316437&mpage=1&key=brat&#316452
Not a slave...a bratty subbie

http://www.collarchat.com/tm.asp?m=256345&mpage=1&key=brat&#256683
The "B" word



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 7:51:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMonos
Strength comes from sacrifice

Not necessarily.  And strength can come from many other places as well.

quote:

.... strength comes from restraining your feeling of that INSTANT, and thinking about things before you act... or taking the adult approach of communicating your feelings in a calm manner, and perhaps trying to understand those feelings. Being a brat in my opinion does nothing but show your immaturity, your lack of self control, your lack of restraint, your lack of willingness to sacrifice anything and allow yourself time to understand why you might be asked to make such a sacrifice.

What you're talking about here is control and seeing the bigger picture- not sacrifice.

I personally have nothing against throwing caution to the wind, being a little girl with no thoughts to the long term big picture and just going with what feels good right then and there.

But I'm not an annoying person with it and I know when the right time and place is to do such things.  The problem with brats is that they seem to lack this distinction AND may even be encouraged by their dom to act in such a way which is perceived as quite annoying to others.

quote:


Now let the comments begin about how being a brat is such a good thing... and how I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about LOL...

Hmmm sorry to disappoint you here.  While I don't agree with all of your points or methods, I certainly won't suggest something as silly as that right off the bat.



MasterMonos -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 7:55:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

I guess I wonder if you are talking about someone who is your own life right now, the way people behave in chat, etc.  Are you talking about a r/l Dom and sub relationship or cyber stuff?

My idea of a brat is pretty much the same as a SAM, someone who irritates tops to get their attention.  It's very common, and welcome, in many groups targeted specifically towards spanking fetishes.  I also saw it years ago in BDSM chat between a Dom and sub that I knew personally, people who didn't behave that way in r/l.  So, again - are you talking about real time activity or cyber stuff?

MaryT



I am talking about real life... don’t particularly care about the whole chatroom "Dominance" thing... if you wish to call it that, but I'm referring to real life. I have studied the general dynamic of various communities. Granted, the different BDSM events I attend all around the country may not be an accurate depiction of the lifestyle as a whole, however from what I've seen here’s the typical Dom / sub interaction: Dom A goes up to Sub b and introduces himself. The typical diatribe of small talk pursues, followed by the submissive playing hard to get, and the poor pathetic Dominant almost begs her to consider him.. Following her around almost like a lost puppy.

Then invariably the following occurs.... the submissive outright acts like a brat, and he loves it... he thinks its cute... Oh boy oh boy oh boy, she's a handful... I'm going to have fun taming her LOL... so who's the culprit here? The sex starved Dominant who does nothing but show her that she's in charge by taking the crap, and teaching her nothing more than oh it’s ok.. You’re cute, so I'll pretend like you're not really toping from the bottom, or is it the subs fault for not saying egh, you're no Dom... I could probably have you kneeling in front of me calling me Mistress if I really felt like it, so shoo!

And why on earth do people talk about chat rooms as if they're real? What on earth is the whole chat thing? Do people smack their monitor and say "There... I spanked you" when a submissive misbehave in a "Chat room"?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:01:21 PM)

quote:

And why on earth do people talk about chat rooms as if they're real? What on earth is the whole chat thing? Do people smack their monitor and say "There... I spanked you" when a submissive misbehave in a "Chat room"?

The whole chat thing is pretty much what you're doing here- however, you can envision this as a debate room going around the circle of a large table, while a chat room is more like a crowded bar.

It's the same thing, just different environments.  I hope you notice the irony of knocking down cyber interactions on a cyber forum itself.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:03:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMonos
So listen up folks... Yes I understand that this may piss off a lot of people, and yes, I am fully aware that I am playing devils advocate. However, I would like to simply solicit other peoples point of view... So how you take it is up to you.

I just noticed this actually.  Since you say you are playing Devils Advocate, does that mean you really think brats are fun and fine and ok, and are just taking up the contrary point out view to point out specific pieces of this dynamic and to get particular responses? 

Because otherwise I'd think you misused the term "Devil's Advocate"



Grlwithboy -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:10:00 PM)

What's with "these days?" Please enlighten me to the halcyon days. If you read something as old as Mr. Benson (1976) and assume that even fiction doesn't spring full-sprung from the heads of writers, manipulative and sex hungry bottoms who struggle against submission aren't some kind of nouveau trend at all.  



AquaticSub -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:10:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMonos

Dom A goes up to Sub b and introduces himself. The typical diatribe of small talk pursues, followed by the submissive playing hard to get, and the poor pathetic Dominant almost begs her to consider him.. Following her around almost like a lost puppy.



Laws of supply and demand. Whiles I've found there are fewer desirable subs at public BDSM events then dominants who think they are worthy (haven't ever been looking at public events so I can't say if I consider them worth it or not), there tend to be less desirable dominants at the private parties I've attended. Where there are fewer subs then doms, the sub has the upper hand as she gets to choose what she feels as the best match for her. Considering what we hand over when we do submit, I can't say I have a problem with a dominant having to work a bit to earn the submissive's trust and affection.

quote:



Then invariably the following occurs.... the submissive outright acts like a brat, and he loves it... he thinks its cute... Oh boy oh boy oh boy, she's a handful... I'm going to have fun taming her LOL... so who's the culprit here? The sex starved Dominant who does nothing but show her that she's in charge by taking the crap, and teaching her nothing more than oh it’s ok.. You’re cute, so I'll pretend like you're not really toping from the bottom, or is it the subs fault for not saying egh, you're no Dom... I could probably have you kneeling in front of me calling me Mistress if I really felt like it, so shoo!



Has it occured to you that some people actually like a fiesty sub who continuely needs to be broken? Your way is no better then theirs. Topping from the bottom is such a general and fairly useless term after all. It's like calling someone a fake. I'm spunky and didn't hit my knees for every master and dominant I had just met when I was single. I made them flirt with me, show me their personality the same as I would do with any vanilla interaction. I was respectful but I didn't treat them any differently from anyone else in the world. If I wasn't interested, I moved on. If they followed, that was their problem. Does that mean I top from the bottom?

Edited to clarify



MasterMonos -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:10:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

And why on earth do people talk about chat rooms as if they're real? What on earth is the whole chat thing? Do people smack their monitor and say "There... I spanked you" when a submissive misbehave in a "Chat room"?

The whole chat thing is pretty much what you're doing here- however, you can envision this as a debate room going around the circle of a large table, while a chat room is more like a crowded bar.

It's the same thing, just different environments.  I hope you notice the irony of knocking down cyber interactions on a cyber forum itself.


LOL... you're kidding me right? This is a chat room? No dear lady, I propose this is a forum for conversation... nothing more, nothing less... What I often here about "Chat room" stuff is where you go into a chat room, and you talk to each other, you have cyber virtual collaring ceremonies between people who have never even talked on the phone, let alone met each other, and you have cyber terrific Masters and slaves who for the most part... (not all, but most) act out their fantasies, and that’s all it really is, a fantasy... nothing more.

THAT is what I was mocking, however if cant tell the difference I'll explain it to you this way... I posted on here to incite a discussion, not to pretend bend someone over and pretend spank them when they are bad LOL.



MasterMonos -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:16:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMonos
So listen up folks... Yes I understand that this may piss off a lot of people, and yes, I am fully aware that I am playing devils advocate. However, I would like to simply solicit other peoples point of view... So how you take it is up to you.

I just noticed this actually.  Since you say you are playing Devils Advocate, does that mean you really think brats are fun and fine and ok, and are just taking up the contrary point out view to point out specific pieces of this dynamic and to get particular responses? 

Because otherwise I'd think you misused the term "Devil's Advocate"


Ah yes... That indeed is the question... Why am I doing this? Do I find that brats are fun? Or perhaps am I simply trying to instigate and get some lively discussion going? Ah, but you see... Therein lays the question. Am I just angry? Or am I pushing some mental buttons to see what lovely things pop out? :)



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:22:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMonos
Ah yes... That indeed is the question... Why am I doing this? Do I find that brats are fun? Or perhaps am I simply trying to instigate and get some lively discussion going? Ah, but you see... Therein lays the question. Am I just angry? Or am I pushing some mental buttons to see what lovely things pop out? :)


Whichever it is, we're nothing that hasn't been seen hundreds of times before.



Grlwithboy -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:22:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMonos

Dom A goes up to Sub b and introduces himself. The typical diatribe of small talk pursues, followed by the submissive playing hard to get, and the poor pathetic Dominant almost begs her to consider him.. Following her around almost like a lost puppy.

Then invariably the following occurs.... the submissive outright acts like a brat, and he loves it... he thinks its cute... Oh boy oh boy oh boy, she's a handful... I'm going to have fun taming her LOL... so who's the culprit here? The sex starved Dominant who does nothing but show her that she's in charge by taking the crap, and teaching her nothing more than oh it’s ok.. You’re cute, so I'll pretend like you're not really toping from the bottom, or is it the subs fault for not saying egh, you're no Dom... I could probably have you kneeling in front of me calling me Mistress if I really felt like it, so shoo!


I find it amusing and kind of pathetic too, but you know what?

1. it's no skin off my ass, she's not my problem and if I don't like how they play I can choose not to watch

2.  it's not really my GD business





nikaa -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:26:23 PM)

My Master calls me his brat. When I told him about this thread he told me to place my picture up for a definition of what a brat is.  He also calls me his deviant.

1. I have sacrificed and do sacrifice for him, for our children, for our relationship. I give up what I desire or want daily because I am his slave and because I am a mother.
2. I don’t throw tantrums because I don’t get what I want. It’s not about what I want.

So there are flaws in your generalization or definition of “brats”.

There are some Dom/me, Masters, and Mistresses that enjoy strong willed, playful, deviant, even bratty submissives or slaves as long as they understand there are a time and place. Perhaps such a submissive or slave is not for you but to each their own, obviously my Master is happy with his bratty, deviant, little whore.

By the way your generalization are childish to me and say alot about you perhaps your simply envous of the brats of the world or the ones who own them. Perhaps this thread was simply your daily tantrum.



MaryT -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:29:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMonos

Granted, the different BDSM events I attend all around the country may not be an accurate depiction of the lifestyle as a whole, however from what I've seen here’s the typical Dom / sub interaction: Dom A goes up to Sub b and introduces himself. The typical diatribe of small talk pursues, followed by the submissive playing hard to get, and the poor pathetic Dominant almost begs her to consider him.. Following her around almost like a lost puppy.

Then invariably the following occurs.... the submissive outright acts like a brat, and he loves it... he thinks its cute... Oh boy oh boy oh boy, she's a handful... I'm going to have fun taming her LOL... so who's the culprit here? The sex starved Dominant who does nothing but show her that she's in charge by taking the crap, and teaching her nothing more than oh it’s ok..


You may have nailed it right there.  There is a difference between someone who is sex-starved and someone who has a control kink.  The latter would not likely find that kind of behavior appealing and wouldn't encourage it.  That is outside the realm of relationship though.  Within one, whatever works for the parties involved works.

The chat stuff is odd.  I actually attended a cyber dinner party in a non-kink related group - it was strange.  I don't understand the appeal, do not understand the appeal of "cyber sex" and never even understood what draws people to phone sex.  But, whatever floats one's boat.

MaryT



MaryT -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:31:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grlwithboy

What's with "these days?" Please enlighten me to the halcyon days. If you read something as old as Mr. Benson (1976) and assume that even fiction doesn't spring full-sprung from the heads of writers, manipulative and sex hungry bottoms who struggle against submission aren't some kind of nouveau trend at all.  


You could take it back to Shakespeare and The Taming of the Shrew.

MaryT



diamonddreamlove -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:43:58 PM)

As long as i please my Master that is all that matters.  If he wants me to be a brat i will be one if he says not to be i will be whatever he wants and needs at that moment.  Fortunately he allows me to be me with a full range of personality and behaviors.  That is what works for us.  Good luck in finding what works for you.

diamond



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: What is a brat? (12/25/2006 8:48:34 PM)

Personally the overall view of "brattiness" to me is an immature acting out.Do I enjoy teasing?..Yes..Do I enjoy tempting?..Yes..Do I enjoy playful denial and escape?..Yes..will I stamp my foot and pout in private..Yes if the Dominant enjoys such...will I stamp foot and pout in public ?..No....will I whine to get my way? No..will I plead to get my way?..Yes...its all in how you wish to interpret "brattiness". Being an adult, to behave in less than an exemplary way ,especially out in public ,would not only demean myself, but could demean the one I was with.And that to me would be unacceptable!...Tempting



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