RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:22:09 PM)

Sunshine119: How fascinating! Wow - that is just interesting. Wow. Thanks for the reply.

juliaoceania: Thanks for your reply. Yes - while I tend to think many probably are born this way, I'd bet there are some who maybe mostly "vanilla", but somehow are introduced to this "option", who get involved in it, and enjoy it just as much as "vanilla" - as those "born this way" enjoy this option - because they're interested and passionate about practicing it. So what if they are "experimenting"? They are enjoying themselves, and not hurting anyone (non-concensually, that is). 

ownedgirlie: Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it.



Grlwithboy -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:22:53 PM)

Susan -- ahh, see my mother is a very roll-over-and-take-anything kind of person who has very poor boundaries, and has essentially let her mother passively-aggressively manipulate her out of having her own adult life.

I watched this go down from an early age and on some very core level "damned if I'm doing what ANYone says" is a major piece. I suppose I could try and smooth it over with enough therapy junk food and TV or I can just own it, love it, and let it be a turn on in bed. :)




SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:27:03 PM)

Grlwithboy: Ohhh. I see. I misunderstood (sorry). That makes sense now. Yes, why go to therapy - it's not your problem, anyway, really (its hers, although I can see how it amay have affected you) - and in the mean-time, you've found something that fulfills you. Good for you!

- Susan



akisha -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:33:02 PM)

I'd say I was probably born with the tendancies to be submissive, but I fought against it for a long time. As a kid I loved being captrued and tied up when playing games. But as a teen/ adult I felt guilt at my desires to be controlled so fought against it. Took me a while to realize that sometimes we are just who we are and we need to accept that.

I've found I'm much happier and more content now then I was then.



BDSM05478 -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:33:57 PM)

No doubt about it I was born this way. I use to tell stories to mygirl scout troop when I was 8, before I even knew what sex really was, where girls would get kidnapped and tied to a tree and the people that did it would "do stuff to them". The same games where the loser was the winners slave for a few hours....it wasn't till I was older that I found out there was an acceptable outlet for all my fantasies and urges.



Emperor1956 -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:34:20 PM)

I don't want to hijack this thread, but perhaps in a new thread, John, you could justify this statement?  I know of NO definitive answer to "nature vs. nurture" for anything except a few recognized genetic traits and diseases; I certainly know of no research proving "nature" defines sexual orientation.

E.

quote:

  I have always been a rabid advocate of "nature" in the "nature vs. nurture" debate.  And I am unaware of any logical argument to the contrary.
 
It's the same argument once engaged in regarding sexual orientation.  And settled (soundly) by science.
 
John




MzMia -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:34:23 PM)

Great question, Susan.
I was born dominant, like someone on here
states, "From the womb to the tomb".
I think many of us are born with more dominant
or submissive traits.
It really comes to light, when I consider switching.
I feel I could be submissive on a good day for about
5-10 minutes in a relationship.
LOL
I know it is different for everyone, but this is my story,
I am sticking to it.
[:D]
**I just read Diamond Orchid's post, I was a Dominant woman
LONG before I "discovered" this lifestyle 3 years ago.
The only vanilla relationships that I had that ever lasted any length of
time, were the ones in which I took the lead.
It explains a lot!



SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:39:18 PM)

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

Nice to know there is a "home" for us on this planet, isn't it? I am so glad I don't feel loike an alien anymore...

- Susan



mstrjx -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:40:41 PM)

I had interests (beginning with bondage) that I was exposed to as early as 5 or so.  I carried that with me as what I thought was the end all/be all for the longest time until I actually started exploring the Lifestyle full-time much later (30).

I suppose I can say that I've been interested in 'kink' since just about forever.  What specific orientation that plays out as I haven't been all that interested in caring.  I get the sense that my interests are, in general, more intense, more 'deep end', more experimental, more non-traditional, than others and my values seem to keep getting more 'out there'.  I'm not ashamed of any of this, but it doesn't get shared much either.

I cannot do vanilla any longer, and made that choice back when I was 30.  At the same time taking 'all' of my interests and matching that with another seems problematic at best.  So much so that I've rather stopped trying.

Jeff



SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:44:04 PM)

Emperor1956: I think you're going to find "evidence" either way (although as far as credibility goes, my bets are on the side of nature, not nurture). I did an entire sociology paper on this question, for a sociology class I took as an undergraduate that was 50 pages long.

I interviewed over 300 gay men for the project (I spent a lot of time in gay bars) . They (98%) of them anyway) had concluded they were in fact, "born this way". And that is from the "horses mouth". I chose the topic, because I couldn't figure out why anyone would "choose" to be gay, given the crap they've had to put up with from people in the "moral majority", for instance, for so long. It just didn't make much sense to me. Of course, this paper I wrote was written in 1982...but still.

I am sure you could find someone willing to swear their "evidence" was "irrefutable" from either side of the question. Just my guess...

Jeff(mstrjx): Thank you for the personal reply. I appreciate it.

- Susan  



OedipusRexIt -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:56:04 PM)

I think this thread represents the classic "nature vs nurture" debate, so no sense in endlessly rehashing it. 

Why?  Because no one has found a way to conclusively prove either side.  The "alcoholic gene" for example, doesn't prove alcoholism is genetic, because it doesen't separate out the influence of the alcoholic parent.

Born that way or learned it....  why is it important, as long as you like it and do the most you can with it?



SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 2:58:00 PM)

OedipusRexit: I know you are right. I am just curious what other people think. But mostly how they came to the conclusion either way, I guess.

- Susan



akbarbarian -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 3:09:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OedipusRexIt

I think this thread represents the classic "nature vs nurture" debate, so no sense in endlessly rehashing it. 

Why?  Because no one has found a way to conclusively prove either side.  The "alcoholic gene" for example, doesn't prove alcoholism is genetic, because it doesen't separate out the influence of the alcoholic parent.

Born that way or learned it....  why is it important, as long as you like it and do the most you can with it?

Actually a study on identical twins did provide proof that genetics are a factor in personality as well as physical attributes.  I had my testosterone level checked when I was 26, and it was over double normal for the baseline average for 18 year old males.  They were sure I was on steroids.  I don't discount the possibility that this is related.  Without my test would I still be dominaint?  That's hard to say.  In first grade the girl I had a crush on and went out on a date with was a head shorter than everyone else in class, and before I ever heard the acronym BDSM I was told I was probably looking for a submissive girl even back then.  At the time I took offence since I didn't know what it meant.  Now, I see the truth in it. 



spenser -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 3:14:08 PM)

some may say that you are , who you are from when you where born . others may say its the paths you choose to go down that shape your future .



Rover -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 3:16:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

I don't want to hijack this thread, but perhaps in a new thread, John, you could justify this statement?  I know of NO definitive answer to "nature vs. nurture" for anything except a few recognized genetic traits and diseases; I certainly know of no research proving "nature" defines sexual orientation.

E.

quote:

  I have always been a rabid advocate of "nature" in the "nature vs. nurture" debate.  And I am unaware of any logical argument to the contrary.
 
It's the same argument once engaged in regarding sexual orientation.  And settled (soundly) by science.
 
John





A detailed review of the issue (yet still understandable to us laymen) can be read at:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice_and_sexual_orientation
 
For those who want the abridged version, here are the relevant passages (as I see them):
 
"Orientation as innate or unconsciously developed
Today, most mental health experts agree that sexual orientation is not chosen."

That is significant in the context of the following statement which implies that "nurture" may be relevant only if sexual orientation is a conscious choice:

"If sexual orientation is (completely or almost completely) a conscious choice, then social and cultural influences may play a role."

And to be fair, the following passage also exists:

"Current scientific view
Though science currently has no definitive answer to the question, evidence seems to suggest that sexual orientation is the result of a combination of environmental, emotional, hormonal, and biological factors. In other words, there are many factors that contribute to a person's sexual orientation, and the factors may be different for different people."

Though that same fairness necessitates the mention that environmental and emotional influences have been theorized for hundreds of years.  And although all previous theories as to what those influences are, and how they may operate, have been disproven, they belief in their existence seems rather persistent.

Studies that support the conclusion of an innate origin for sexual orientation include empirical studies of twins, brain structure, chromosomal linkage, and maternal linkage and birth order (hormonal influences upon fetal development), which have all been demonstrated to have a statistical correlation to sexual orientation. 
 
More detailed explanation of these studies is available at:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_and_sexual_orientation
 
I am not aware of any evidence to support the theory that sexual orientation is the result of "nurture", though the belief itself has been in existence for hundreds of years (and was once used as the basis for explaining Leopold von Sacher-Masoch's affinity for the paraphilia that carries his name... masochism).  If you know of any such studies, please feel free to direct me to them.
 
John



Grlwithboy -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 3:29:44 PM)

My husband has had really high T come back on his blood work at times and he's an "I get nauseous thinking about switching" sub.



gypsygrl -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 3:37:46 PM)

I'm convinced I'm hardwired for both submission and masochism.  Whether this hardwiring occurred before or in the first three or four years after birth, I don't know, but its been more or less in place for as long as I can remember.

A  side point: my conviction that I'm hardwired for submission and masochism does not mean that I necessarily think its genetic.  The brain is subject to environmental influences before birth and continues to develop its basic structure for a couple years after birth as was pointed out by onestandingstill, a perspective generally accepted as valid by child developmentalists.  In other words, believing myself to have been born this way, doesn't mean I've excluded environomental influences as variables in my development.





rainasmiles -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 3:39:57 PM)

i sensed that there was something different about me from my very earliest childhood memories.  i remember always feeling as though i had a "secret to keep"  without knowing exactly what that secret was.  i only knew for sure that i was different in a way that wouldn't be accepted or understood by my peers.  i also remember about the same time having a strong desire for physical punishment/pain administered by an authority figure, but was appalled at the idea of misbehaving to bring it about.  this makes me believe that i not only was aware of my submissive nature as a very young child (early grade school at least) but was also exhibiting a need for pain.  these things are at the very core of who i am.  for me it is a inextricably intertwined with my soul and there is no way to excise one from the other.



KatyLied -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 3:41:26 PM)

I used to sit for hours and wonder why I am the way I am.  I engaged a (male) friend in conversation regarding D/s and bdsm and s&m.  He said "it's not because you were neglected or had a bad childhood."  In other words, it's just who you are.  I think some people are just wired for certain things, others aren't.  I lean more toward the "nature" part of the argument.  And I wonder who else in my family is kinky....where did it come from?



agirl -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/27/2006 4:02:28 PM)

I don't think I was born to be a slave or born to anything particularly.....certainly not submissive but almost certainly *able to follow a great Captain*.

The strongest feelings I have about my childhood are about wanting freedom.......even though I probably didn't have any idea what that was.

A lot of my earliest memories are of having to *follow* people that I didn't have a certain *type* of respect for. It wasn't that I didn't respect them at ALL, or that they were bad or weak people.....they just didn't inspire the type of respect that resonated with me.

agirl












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