RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ?

RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (Full Version)

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HollyS -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 10:46:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Actually, what this demonstrates is that the desire for sexual gratification is more important in the human heirarchy of needs. The same can be observed in today's prison population... if that's all that's available... When given the choice (or upon release), outcomes revert to their natural state. Actually no, it's not analogous to modern-day prison situations in any way. Thinking that they are alike belies ignorance in both history and psychology. In Ancient Greece, sexual relations with both men and women were absolutely normal and expected, in much the same way heterosexual relations are both normal and expected in current Western culture. Back then, men loved and bonded with both men and women - it wasn't simply an expression of physical gratification. Lasting relationships were formed with lovers of both genders and no one thought a thing of it. Conversely, within US prisons sex is used primarily as an expression of control. Sex in prisons has far more in common with sadistic D/s practices than with homosexual relationships from back in the day, as there is little to no bonding going on in any sort of consentual way (Stockholm Syndrome relationships don't count). Prison sex is about dominance and favors and power, not love or friendship. I'm not making any sort of statement about the degree/absence of love within D/s relationships, so let's not start that flame war. This discussion is about the difference between gay/bisexual lovers and people who perform homosexual acts as a way to dominate and humilate others within a system that dominates and humilates everyone. Homosexual acts in prison are rarely related to a genuine sexual attraction to men, which is why most men - even those who engaged in male-male sexual relations - return to having sex with the gender they prefered before entering the system. OTOH, there are plenty of examples of gay men who were so victimized within the prison system, that upon leaving it were unable to engage in sex with men -- trauma tends to trump everything else. Prison is a lousy example that isn't comparative to much of anything else. Don't use something so horrific as a way to discount reality. ~Holly

agirl -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 10:51:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I appreciate everyone's taking the time to answer this thread. I appreciate it a lot. It's interesting to me to read. thetammyjo (and agirl, too): Good point. I am not offended (at all).There isn't any real way to know, probably. I am just wondering, then, if maybe you think you've always felt this way, or if it was something you decided you liked after you discovered it was an option? - Susan No.......I haven't always felt like I wanted to be contained, controlled and directed by someone. Quite the opposite. I have always wanted to be free of it, even as a very small child. On the surface, I'm more likely to walk away from my Master than I ever have been from anyone else and yet I'm LESS likely to. Everything about the relationship is contradictory. I can't change that and I don't even wish to. When he stops being able to hold me in his hand it will be because he can't. agirl

Phoenix2raven -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 10:53:13 AM)
Absolutely After fighting with it for years and then saying to hell with the psycological community I came to accept who and what I am. As long as I can remember I had fantasized about dominating women. My earlyest rememberence is around 12 or 13 when I wanted to line all the girls up and inspect them then spank them. LOL I wonder what kind of reaction I would have gotten?

plexiTJR -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 11:15:03 AM)
I think I was born this way. I don't even remember when I was not into power exchange. My favorite games as a child (even toddler) were roleplaying "teacher/bad student", "Master/slave", "King or Queen/paisants", you get the drift. heh. It was always limited to the gameroom though, in my every day interaction, I was always competitive and quite the tom-boy. I'm actually still rather competitive, although I'm much more feminine now. I discovered what masochism was when I was about 11, and then discovered the lifestyle when I was 16.. but it surely wasn't an introduction it was more like.. finding I guess.. It's like "oh there are other people who do this kind of stuff? neat!"

Rover -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 11:17:55 AM)
quote: Boys were raised with their lifelong military unit from childhood until they were allowed to go home at age 35 and sexual contact within the unit was de regiuer -- it's absolutely the way things were. This was rooted in the idea that in battle you might leave your buddy behind but you'd never leave your lover (how things change over time, huh?). Men were allowed to take a wife upon becoming a citizen (in their 20s) primarily for procreative purposes; the wife stayed home and ran the farm while the husband went back to the barracks and fought. I'm sorry, Holly. This strikes me as very comparable to a prison situation. It's a free country, so you're free to disagree, of course. John

SirDiscipliner69 -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 11:19:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO ***question: So anyway, do you think you were born like this, or just somehow fell into learning about it, and just "adapted" to it, and like doing it and relating this way - but it isn't a "core" part of you that you were born with? I think the Vincient Price movies I watched and lots of magazines as a kid that I read along with the first woman that coaxed Me to put My handcuffs on her and f*ck her were to blame . ;) Ross

SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 11:55:58 AM)
Thanks for thr replies, folks! - Susan

thetammyjo -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 12:22:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I appreciate everyone's taking the time to answer this thread. I appreciate it a lot. It's interesting to me to read. thetammyjo (and agirl, too): Good point. I am not offended (at all).There isn't any real way to know, probably. I am just wondering, then, if maybe you think you've always felt this way, or if it was something you decided you liked after you discovered it was an option? - Susan I discovered there were words for what I liked and liked to do -- non-clincial words -- when I discovered things online in the very very early 1990s when I was starting college. Before then I might have found things in psych books but I never thought what I felt or how I processed the world around was unusual. You mean not everyone only remembered the Amazon episodes of tv shows or the cases where the male lead was tied up or kidnapped? Gee, I thought that's all those shows were until I saw reruns when I was much older. I guess my memory just focused on those things that really connected with how I wanted to see the world. Why I saw the world this why I don't know.

thetammyjo -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 12:35:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover Actually, what this demonstrates is that the desire for sexual gratification is more important in the human heirarchy of needs. The same can be observed in today's prison population... if that's all that's available... When given the choice (or upon release), outcomes revert to their natural state. John Not if you consider Athens. There the standard attractions were adult man (35+) and teenage boy (13-18). Yet even though these were considered the relationship to write about and sing about and make art of, it had to take place within a rather strict social code of conduct. Deviation from this could jeoperdize a boy's abilty to become an adult citiizen. Boys were not freely available to adult men, there were strict laws about going into schools and even watching boys at school. Usually a father would take great pains to find an appropriate older male lover for his son, invite him to dinner, introduce them through a few social meetings before you leave them alone. The expectation was that this ended once the boy became a boy and signed up for military service (usually a two year period out defending the territory of the polis. Then he'd move on to women and marriage before in his mid to late thirties turning around and getting a boy lover for a few years. Lots of speculation on why this happened -- in this historian's opinion there is no solid evidence. Most Greek citities had homosexuality (for men, women just frankly aren't written about that much) in some socially accepted form. The ways in which it was acceptable varied. Gender wasn't just two in number, there were at least four genders possible six depending on how you count them. There were clear ideas about what was best but that also varied by city. Anyway, I won't bore you further. I taught a class called "Greek Men: Gender & Sexuality" that spun two conference presentations so this is something I know a lot about. All this gave me for understanding for being a man -- now and then. Regardless of whether or not men have more responsiblity, more privileges, and more authority or power, that does not equal that it is easy to be a man in any culture or any time period.

Rover -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 1:32:02 PM)
And the Athenian boys had a choice in the matter? Or was this relationship forced upon them? In other words, did this reflect their orientation and preferences, or was it simply a cultural custom that was forced upon them? Many cultures are known to impose some terribly painful and/or dreadful customs upon their children and adolescents. However, it is a great leap to conclude that those nonconsensual customs reflect their orientation or free expression. A vivid example would be famale circumcision, which reflects the mores of the adults rather than anything related to the children. No one disputes that homosexuality and bisexuality have existed throughout human history. As has been previously noted, such orientations are readily observable in most (all?) populations, not just humans. So I'm not at all certain that the existence of homosexuality and bisexuality in ancient Greece is anything noteworthy. John

Lordandmaster -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 1:52:08 PM)
Those aren't mutually exclusive possibilities, Rover. I mean, I sure as hell love spare ribs and corn bread, but that's obviously an element of my culture that I've internalized. quote: ORIGINAL: Rover And the Athenian boys had a choice in the matter? Or was this relationship forced upon them? In other words, did this reflect their orientation and preferences, or was it simply a cultural custom that was forced upon them?

thetammyjo -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 1:59:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover And the Athenian boys had a choice in the matter? Or was this relationship forced upon them? In other words, did this reflect their orientation and preferences, or was it simply a cultural custom that was forced upon them? Many cultures are known to impose some terribly painful and/or dreadful customs upon their children and adolescents. However, it is a great leap to conclude that those nonconsensual customs reflect their orientation or free expression. A vivid example would be famale circumcision, which reflects the mores of the adults rather than anything related to the children. No one disputes that homosexuality and bisexuality have existed throughout human history. As has been previously noted, such orientations are readily observable in most (all?) populations, not just humans. So I'm not at all certain that the existence of homosexuality and bisexuality in ancient Greece is anything noteworthy. John Did women in ancient Greece consent to be married and have heterosexual sex? What about women today? How can we say that we chose to be het when our culture preaches that we should be? If all choices were treated equally by society then we might be able to better answer this question. I do know in Athens boys had to consent otherwise it was a crime with the harsh penalties for the adult (usually death). How boys were treated is much like a woman might be treated by some folks when she is raped -- often times the raped is blamed but rapist still gets punished. So my response, Rover, is that you are asking for information that we cannot ever answer for the vast majority of history and the vast majority of people today even. Greece and other cultures are worth discussing because if things are "natural" then I would argue that there shouldn't be variation. There is much variation across and within human socieities throughout time. I speak of Greece because I'm a Greek historian and because it ws brought up by someone else.

thetammyjo -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 2:04:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo quote: ORIGINAL: Rover And the Athenian boys had a choice in the matter? Or was this relationship forced upon them? In other words, did this reflect their orientation and preferences, or was it simply a cultural custom that was forced upon them? Many cultures are known to impose some terribly painful and/or dreadful customs upon their children and adolescents. However, it is a great leap to conclude that those nonconsensual customs reflect their orientation or free expression. A vivid example would be famale circumcision, which reflects the mores of the adults rather than anything related to the children. No one disputes that homosexuality and bisexuality have existed throughout human history. As has been previously noted, such orientations are readily observable in most (all?) populations, not just humans. So I'm not at all certain that the existence of homosexuality and bisexuality in ancient Greece is anything noteworthy. John Did women in ancient Greece consent to be married and have heterosexual sex? What about women today? How can we say that we chose to be het when our culture preaches that we should be? If all choices were treated equally by society then we might be able to better answer this question. I do know in Athens boys had to consent otherwise it was a crime with the harsh penalties for the adult (usually death). How boys were treated is much like a woman might be treated by some folks when she is raped -- often times the raped is blamed but rapist still gets punished. I also know that some boys didn't follow the social rules and seem to have gladly given up their citizenship rights in exchange for long-term homosexual relationships. In Greece (and Rome as well) activities were arranged on a heirarchy of sexual quality not the sex or gender of the partners. So "active" versus "passive" instead of het, bi, or homo, male or female, young or old. So my response, Rover, is that you are asking for information that we cannot ever answer for the vast majority of history nor for the vast majority of people today even. Greece and other cultures are worth discussing because if things are "natural" then I would argue that there shouldn't be variation. There is much variation across and within human socieities throughout time. I speak of Greece because I'm a Greek historian and because it ws brought up by someone else. Therefore I'm a history geek so history is always interesting to me if not immediate relavent. I would argue attempts to prove something correct today based on anything in the past is a foolish attempt. If you want to understand human variation, human history, or where our ideas come from, great, justifying anything based on the past though seems rather silly to me. Afterall concepts such as education, equality, freedom are very modern and couldn't be supported on historical precedents for many centuries back.

Rover -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 2:07:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Greece and other cultures are worth discussing because if things are "natural" then I would argue that there shouldn't be variation. There is much variation across and within human socieities throughout time. And I agree, though we are not in agreement as to what is being observed. Whether it is orientation influenced by culture, or culture alone. I do know that modern studies (I've noted them previously) did not demonstrate orientation to be influenced by the environment in which one was raised, or even the gender in which one was raised (if that gender was not their own). John

sophia37 -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 2:07:22 PM)
Birth order plays a part to our personalities for sure. Maybe you're an oldest child.

Rover -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 2:09:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sophia37 Birth order plays a part to our personalities for sure. Maybe you're an oldest child. Studies indicate that birth order's influence is related to the hormonal output of mothers during gestation, the amount of which is affected by each succeeding birth. John

thetammyjo -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 2:12:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: thetammyjo Greece and other cultures are worth discussing because if things are "natural" then I would argue that there shouldn't be variation. There is much variation across and within human socieities throughout time. And I agree, though we are not in agreement as to what is being observed. Whether it is orientation influenced by culture, or culture alone. I do know that modern studies (I've noted them previously) did not demonstrate orientation to be influenced by the environment in which one was raised, or even the gender in which one was raised (if that gender was not their own). John We cannot do such studies in history that goes further back than those alive today. It isn't possible so it's an unrealistic criteria to have for history. And for folks who want to say 'but history is supposed to be the facts about what it was like' I say: No, history is the interpretation of the evidence we have. We should have rational and logical criteria for that evidence and how to use it but only someone in lala land would think it is objective reality. All I can say (which is why I replied) is that homosexuality among males was common through ancient Greece. How it played out depended on the individual polis or city-state if you prefer. By common I mean that we have no evidence that people fretted about it or worried it was sinful or unnatural, it simply was.

Nosathro -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 6:54:26 PM)
greetings susanne *quote:* Hello Nosathro, Nothing to flame you intended, but there's WAYYYYY more to knowing you're a Master than being into bondage. suzanne True, but it was a start. I wish you well Nosathro P.S. Remind me one day to give you 10 good strokes of my whip.

TypeAsub1 -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 7:13:29 PM)
No.. However, I do believe that certain characteristics that I was born with - contributed to who I am today. Human behaviour, sexuality, etc. are far too complex to be explained away so easily.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 7:58:45 PM)
Hey, TypeA, welcome to Collarme! (You must recognize my avatar from b.com.)

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