RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message


SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 6:19:31 AM)

Thanks for the reply, cjenny!
- Susan




aliljaded1 -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 6:29:01 AM)

born this way..........?

I think it took SomeOne w/ the right touch to bring out the best in this bratt.
~imho~ Trying to get through this life in one piece  has made me a scrapper which has made me seem dominant. But I have always wanted to find someOne whom I could trust enough to let me be who I really am. A very happy bratt.

side note:
i hav'nt been here in a while and am thinking this is the same post i replied to the last time i was on (lol)




SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 6:36:23 AM)

aliljaded1: I get that. I am not a "brat" type, but I was usually pretty dominant in work situations. And I am sort of the "ringleader" as far as some of the social stuff I am involved in. Somebody usually wants me to be President of some of the organizations I belong to, somewhere along the line (I did it once, and probably won't again. I think it's a pretty thankless position, overall, and end up feeling sorry for officers of organizations sometimes, especially volunteer organizations).

Because you have to walk on eggshells around people, sometimes, and literally beg them to do things if you want to reach any goals, since nobody is getting paid. But I am pretty good at begging, and so got pretty good results. But still. This probably bothered me because I can be so "results-oriented". Some people don't care all that much, but I do, usually. If the goal is to reach point Y - then, by God, come hell or high water, we're gonna reach it!

- Susan




thetammyjo -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 7:01:02 AM)

Been waiting to answer this because my answer may seem snippy or like I'm making fun of the question: which I'm not trying to do.

My answer has to be: How could I know?

How could I separate my biology from my environment? How could I separate my chemistry from my history? How could I gauge what my thoughts were before I was trained in how to recognize and name them?

I went through a period when I had to start therapy years ago where I seriously worried about where my Ds inclinations came from. Luckily I had a great counselor who pointed out that as long as I was happy and my partners were happy, I was just asking for problems by thinking about it too much. (I do that, over think things)

This is just me, TammyJo, and I've tried to stop thinking about why I am this way and just live as healthy and happy as I can.




vield -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 7:11:48 AM)

This is certainly an interesting topic.
Although I have been involved with both sides of the sexual power exchange since I was very young, I believe that Being the way I am is somethiung I developed into.
Maybe I have some natural tendencies genetically, but how I have been taught and how I have learned to express these kinky ideas is something I can trace the development of, and something I have seen grow and change over the course of time.
Of course once exposed to the intensity of our joys, I have not been able to stay away for very long, no matter how nice a potential vanilla partner was.
I think each of us has our own path that makes sense for us personally, and whatever explains this to us best is the right answer.




agirl -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 7:53:29 AM)

I'm probably a bit like thetammyjo.

I think if I was a lot younger, I'd be analysing myself into a corner about the entire thing.

History is rewritten each time I have *gazed* at the whys and wherefores, depending on the point I happen to be at in life.

It doesn't matter to me WHY I have chosen this type of relationship, as much as whether I'm better off inside it.

I've known why I've chosen many things in my life *at the time* .....and years later, with a different perspective, the *whys* have changed.

I'm less and less interested in knowing *why* these days.....unless it's related to being UNhappy.

agirl






Rover -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 8:20:53 AM)

I thought the following studies had meaningful implications for the "nature vs. nurture" debate as it relates specifically to BDSM:
 
1.  In December of 2001, Massachusetts General Hospital released the results of a study that revealed the existence of a second brain system for the perception of pain... a system that activated the "reward" structures of the brain in response to painful stimuli.  This critical quote accompanied interviews related to the publication.

"Clearly if sadism and masochism represents something in the reward-aversion continuum, one hypothesis suggests that perhaps the circuitry has been modified  to where an aversive stimulus is perceived as rewarding"
David Borsook, MD, PhD, director of the MGH Center for Functional Pain Neuroimaging and Therapy Research, Department of Radiology
 
The article can be read in its entirety at:
 
http://www.utoronto.ca/pain/Newsletters%20file/e-News%202001/e-news%20dec%2001.pdf
 
2.  In another study, just released this month, Jon-Kar Zubieta, M.D.,  Ph.D. and David J. Scott, Ph.D. found that pain releases dopamine, a brain chemical often associated with "pleasure".

http://www.pain.com/sections/pain_resources/News/news.cfm?id=629
 
Neither of these (or other, similar) studies amounts to a scientific certainty that BDSM is hard wired (ie: the result of "nature" rather than "nurture").  However, they are a growing body of evidence to that assertion.
 
John




Nosathro -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 8:38:55 AM)

Tal and greetings
 
I was born a Master, I kept tieing up my babysitter.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro




SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 8:53:11 AM)

I appreciate everyone's taking the time to answer this thread. I appreciate it a lot. It's interesting to me to read.
 
thetammyjo (and agirl, too): Good point. I am not offended (at all).There isn't any real way to know, probably. I am just wondering, then, if maybe you think you've always felt this way, or if it was something you decided you liked after you discovered it was an option?

- Susan 




SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 8:54:27 AM)

Hey Rover: Thanks for all of the research you've been providing. I appreciate that kind of thing, and read all of it, usually.

- Susan




onestandingstill -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 8:59:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Tal and greetings
 
I was born a Master, I kept tieing up my babysitter.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro

Hello Nosathro,
Nothing to flame you intended, but there's WAYYYYY more to knowing you're a Master than being into bondage.
suzanne




Serenityy -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 9:04:18 AM)

Hello susanofo
 
Was I born submissive? Very interesting question and one that I will admit that I never really take the time to try and determine.
 
As some have already pointed out, one could look to the nature vs nurture debate to decide this answer; yet, I find myself walking the fence on that idea. While I believe that some are inherently submissive, I also believe that environment plays into how far that nature will extend itself.
 
My own beliefs were imprinted on me from a very early age. Within our house, the women were subservient to the men. End of story [:)] It was expected and demanded by my father. Yet, if my father had been different, would I have grown with a different set of ideals? It is a very interesting question. I like to think that the answer would be no; and yet, I find myself thinking that possibly, I would have been.
 
Something deep to ponder on.




HollyS -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 9:12:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Actually, I would propose that as it relates to the studies cited, sexual orientation is linked to gender orientation.  Admittedly, it was not the purpose of the studies to set out to prove that sexual orientation is hard wired, but it can hardly be dismissed.
 
A male, raised as a female, remains hardwired as a male... including his sexual orientation.  Not only was "nurture" unable to influence gender identity, it was unable to influence sexual identity.  That seems, to me, completely relevant to the topic.  Of course, you're free to disagree.


It seems you're only considering present-day Western culture in trying to nail down "nature vs. nurture" when it comes to gender/sexual orientation and expression. The iron-clad belief that sexual orientation is "hard wired" falls apart if you look at Ancient Greece, especially the city state of Sparta. Look at Sparta between 600BC and 300BC and what you'll find is a culture where all men were either homosexual or bisexual. Boys were raised with their lifelong military unit from childhood until they were allowed to go home at age 35 and sexual contact within the unit was de regiuer -- it's absolutely the way things were. This was rooted in the idea that in battle you might leave your buddy behind but you'd never leave your lover (how things change over time, huh?). 

Men were allowed to take a wife upon becoming a citizen (in their 20s) primarily for procreative purposes; the wife stayed home and ran the farm while the husband went back to the barracks and fought.  The Council of Elders decided who would marry who -- creating breeding pairs who would bear the next generation of Spartan supersoldiers.  There are also poetic references within Greek literature that Spartan women were romantically involved with each other as well as Sappho's writings, but since historically women weren't worth much, we don't have a lot of hard evidence on specific lesbian practices. 

Assuredly many men were sexually attracted to women.  It's well-documented that soldiers would sneak out of the barracks at night to visit their wives.  Still, the rate of homosexuality in Ancient Greece exceeded our best modern-day estimates by more than 10x.  Were more people simply "born that way" 2500 years ago?

While Sparta is only one well-documented example, we find similar sexual practices within the Symposiums of Ancient Athens where we have both literary and artisitic evidence of male and female sexual entertainers.  Also Alexander the Great and Macedonian warrior culture, where the men were clearly attracted to both their male companions as well as women.  Orientations to either solely men or both men and women were pervasive throughout Greek culture at the time. Mind you, this didn't affect whether a person considered him or herself a man or a woman - gender studies weren't around at the time and gender roles were extremely unbending at the time.  Sexual expression was a completly seperate thing.

In terms of both gender and sexual orientation, I agree that the nature argument is most likely within our current culture where homosexuality is discouraged. Nowadays only those who firmly believe in their predisposition towards men/women will have the fortitude to live in ways they consider authentic. But imagine if homosexuality were encouraged or, at the very least, considered perfectly okay.  What if gays and lesbians had all the same rights as heterosexuals and the respective genders of any couple were of no matter to anyone?  Based on what we know historically, the percentage of people who self-identify as homosexual/bisexual would rise significantly. 

~Holly




SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 9:33:52 AM)

Wow, HollyS, that is real food for thought. What a great post! Thanks!

= Susan




Rover -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 9:35:51 AM)

Actually, what this demonstrates is that the desire for sexual gratification is more important in the human heirarchy of needs.  The same can be observed in today's prison population... if that's all that's available...
 
When given the choice (or upon release), outcomes revert to their natural state.
 
John




HollyS -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 9:37:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

As far as sexual orientation, when I did my sociology project as an undergrad, I handed out questionnaires to almost 300 gay men, and it only had 3 questions on it, plus room for them to write comments. I went to a gay bar (one of my best friends at the time was a gay man), and handed them out over a period of about 5 weeks. The questions were:

1) Were you (in your opinion) born gay, or was it a concious choice of yours?

2) Are you happy being gay, or would you become straight if you could?

3) Do you think being gay has any moral component to it at all (no offense intended whatsoever).

Overhwhelmingly, the men thought they were born that way (98% of them). They also (about 72%) said they were happy, But - they qualified it as far as the attitude they felt society held toward them. "I am relatively happy - but sad I'll probably never have my own kids or family, get married" etc. Or, "I am happy, but my family isn't speaking to me because of my orientation", etc. 


While this kind of study would make a good undergrad paper, we can't use the findings to make any kind of statement about homosexuality.  Surveys were passed out to men in a gay bar, by a woman, with three simple queries and place for comments.  It begs questions like "What kind of person frequents a gay bar" (someone already pretty secure in their sexuality?) or "What kind of answers are you likely to get from people in a bar setting" (quick, influenced by alcohol, lowered inhibitions?).  Also, since the respondants lived in Nebraska and were chosen from only one bar, the population is very skewed.  Any kind of conclusions can only be made about the people who hang out in that bar, in that town, in that time period.

Most respondants are basing their answers in this thread on how they "feel" now or "felt" as a child.  While such answers certainly fit the OP (Do you think you were...), it's impossible to then generalize out to the nature vs. nurture argument based on any one person's "feelings." Even if every single person on CM said "Yes, I think I was born this way," it still wouldn't help towards answering the question of whether BDSM tendencies are innate or learned, because the group is both too small and already self-selected toward a degree of comfort with BDSM practices. Maybe only regular computer users who frequent message boards are "born this way..."

People are complicated.  Like Tammyjo said, how can anyone seperate out their genetics from their life experiences in contemplating why they prefer what they do?  And I think, more importantly, is it important to parse down our personalities or can we be comfortable in our own skin without knowing exactly how we got this way?



*edited:   Susan, I hope you don't think I'm ripping on your study. I think those were great questions to raise and showed a lot of foresight -- not a lot of people were willing to even ask such things back in 1982.  In this post all I want is to show why it's so hard to tease out individual personality factors as well as understand that "feeling" something personally makes it relevant only for that person, not a group as a whole. 

~Holly




Lordandmaster -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 9:47:31 AM)

Well, those are interesting links, but they relate only to the SM half of BDSM.  Not all of us are sadists or masochists.  In fact, I don't consider myself a sadist or a masochist, but I'm a something, and whatever that something is, I was born that way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

1.  In December of 2001, Massachusetts General Hospital released the results of a study that revealed the existence of a second brain system for the perception of pain... a system that activated the "reward" structures of the brain in response to painful stimuli.  This critical quote accompanied interviews related to the publication.

"Clearly if sadism and masochism represents something in the reward-aversion continuum, one hypothesis suggests that perhaps the circuitry has been modified  to where an aversive stimulus is perceived as rewarding"
David Borsook, MD, PhD, director of the MGH Center for Functional Pain Neuroimaging and Therapy Research, Department of Radiology
 
The article can be read in its entirety at:
 
http://www.utoronto.ca/pain/Newsletters%20file/e-News%202001/e-news%20dec%2001.pdf
 
2.  In another study, just released this month, Jon-Kar Zubieta, M.D.,  Ph.D. and David J. Scott, Ph.D. found that pain releases dopamine, a brain chemical often associated with "pleasure".

http://www.pain.com/sections/pain_resources/News/news.cfm?id=629
 
Neither of these (or other, similar) studies amounts to a scientific certainty that BDSM is hard wired (ie: the result of "nature" rather than "nurture").  However, they are a growing body of evidence to that assertion.




TPEOwner -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 9:59:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
***question: So anyway, do you think you were born like this, or just somehow fell into learning about it, and just "adapted" to it, and like doing it and relating this way - but it isn't a "core" part of you that you were born with?

Thanks for any replies.

- Susan


I think it's a bit of both, with maybe a third option as well.  I think we are either born with the predisposition to enjoy bdsm, or not, and I'd be more inclined to think of it as a spectrum, rather than an on/off switch.  There are some who just get disgusted at the thought of a little spank and tickle, and not all the education in the world will change their opinion, and I think they are born that way.  There are others who are basicly vanilla and wouldn't be interested in a bdsm relationship, but might have a pair of fur lined hand cuffs for an extra thrill now and again.  And so on, right on up to the hard core extremists that haven't had a vanilla thought since they first had a thought at all.

I was one of those "never even thought of it until I was introduced to it by a partner" types.  If I had never encountered bdsm way back when, I'd most likely have been content with vanilla relationships, but once I did, I was instantly hooked and have never looked back.

Now the third explanation would be that there is another trait that is mostly genetic, and that that trait is what makes us more or less open to stuff like bdsm, and that would be intelligence.  I've rubbed elbows with the nudists and the swingers at times for the last 30 years, and what I've found is that in general, the average intelligence in all  these lifestyles was significantly above the population in general.  Our society is still geared toward indoctrinating children about the correct and "normal" way that relationships ought to be, and it takes a certain amount of intelligence to be able to think outside the box and cast off that programming.  While things are changing slowly, we still have states making marriage discrimination manditory, and in Mass, they are trying to put civil rights issues up to a referendum.  Maybe when they are done, they will put chattel slavery to a popular vote as well....




SusanofO -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 10:14:56 AM)

HollyS: Well, I am not offended, and you are most likely right. In fact I know you are. I actually did the study because I was taking a sociology class and had to write a paper, and didn't want that to interfere with my college bar-hopping and partying schedule (LOL).

Really, even back then I thought how gay people were treated by a majority of folks was terribly unfair, and it was my small attempt to rectify things, I suppose. But right after that, AIDs came along and there were all of the right-wing evangelists sayng it was "God's curse on gays", etc.

TPEOwner: Thank you for a very well-thought out and complete answer!

- Susan




cjenny -> RE: Do You Think You Were "Born This Way" ? (12/28/2006 10:33:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, those are interesting links, but they relate only to the SM half of BDSM.  Not all of us are sadists or masochists.  In fact, I don't consider myself a sadist or a masochist, but I'm a something, and whatever that something is, I was born that way.


Well I am not a masochist either & sometimes I really really feel the odd one out here because of that. As if... I cannot be a twue submissive if my back isn't laced with welts & my nipples aren't pierced!




Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875