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ORIGINAL: Rover

Actually, what this demonstrates is that the desire for sexual gratification is more important in the human heirarchy of needs.  The same can be observed in today's prison population... if that's all that's available...
 
When given the choice (or upon release), outcomes revert to their natural state. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I appreciate everyone's taking the time to answer this thread. I appreciate it a lot. It's interesting to me to read.
 
thetammyjo (and agirl, too): Good point. I am not offended (at all).There isn't any real way to know, probably. I am just wondering, then, if maybe you think you've always felt this way, or if it was something you decided you liked after you discovered it was an option?

- Susan 

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Boys were raised with their lifelong military unit from childhood until they were allowed to go home at age 35 and sexual contact within the unit was de regiuer -- it's absolutely the way things were. This was rooted in the idea that in battle you might leave your buddy behind but you'd never leave your lover (how things change over time, huh?). 

Men were allowed to take a wife upon becoming a citizen (in their 20s) primarily for procreative purposes; the wife stayed home and ran the farm while the husband went back to the barracks and fought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

***question: So anyway, do you think you were born like this, or just somehow fell into learning about it, and just "adapted" to it, and like doing it and relating this way - but it isn't a "core" part of you that you were born with?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I appreciate everyone's taking the time to answer this thread. I appreciate it a lot. It's interesting to me to read.

thetammyjo (and agirl, too): Good point. I am not offended (at all).There isn't any real way to know, probably. I am just wondering, then, if maybe you think you've always felt this way, or if it was something you decided you liked after you discovered it was an option?

- Susan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

Actually, what this demonstrates is that the desire for sexual gratification is more important in the human heirarchy of needs. The same can be observed in today's prison population... if that's all that's available...

When given the choice (or upon release), outcomes revert to their natural state.

John

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ORIGINAL: Rover

And the Athenian boys had a choice in the matter?  Or was this relationship forced upon them?  In other words, did this reflect their orientation and preferences, or was it simply a cultural custom that was forced upon them?

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ORIGINAL: Rover

And the Athenian boys had a choice in the matter? Or was this relationship forced upon them? In other words, did this reflect their orientation and preferences, or was it simply a cultural custom that was forced upon them?

Many cultures are known to impose some terribly painful and/or dreadful customs upon their children and adolescents. However, it is a great leap to conclude that those nonconsensual customs reflect their orientation or free expression. A vivid example would be famale circumcision, which reflects the mores of the adults rather than anything related to the children.

No one disputes that homosexuality and bisexuality have existed throughout human history. As has been previously noted, such orientations are readily observable in most (all?) populations, not just humans. So I'm not at all certain that the existence of homosexuality and bisexuality in ancient Greece is anything noteworthy.

John

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

And the Athenian boys had a choice in the matter? Or was this relationship forced upon them? In other words, did this reflect their orientation and preferences, or was it simply a cultural custom that was forced upon them?

Many cultures are known to impose some terribly painful and/or dreadful customs upon their children and adolescents. However, it is a great leap to conclude that those nonconsensual customs reflect their orientation or free expression. A vivid example would be famale circumcision, which reflects the mores of the adults rather than anything related to the children.

No one disputes that homosexuality and bisexuality have existed throughout human history. As has been previously noted, such orientations are readily observable in most (all?) populations, not just humans. So I'm not at all certain that the existence of homosexuality and bisexuality in ancient Greece is anything noteworthy.

John

Did women in ancient Greece consent to be married and have heterosexual sex? What about women today? How can we say that we chose to be het when our culture preaches that we should be? If all choices were treated equally by society then we might be able to better answer this question.

I do know in Athens boys had to consent otherwise it was a crime with the harsh penalties for the adult (usually death). How boys were treated is much like a woman might be treated by some folks when she is raped -- often times the raped is blamed but rapist still gets punished.

I also know that some boys didn't follow the social rules and seem to have gladly given up their citizenship rights in exchange for long-term homosexual relationships.

In Greece (and Rome as well) activities were arranged on a heirarchy of sexual quality not the sex or gender of the partners. So "active" versus "passive" instead of het, bi, or homo, male or female, young or old.

So my response, Rover, is that you are asking for information that we cannot ever answer for the vast majority of history nor for the vast majority of people today even.

Greece and other cultures are worth discussing because if things are "natural" then I would argue that there shouldn't be variation. There is much variation across and within human socieities throughout time.

I speak of Greece because I'm a Greek historian and because it ws brought up by someone else. Therefore I'm a history geek so history is always interesting to me if not immediate relavent.

I would argue attempts to prove something correct today based on anything in the past is a foolish attempt. If you want to understand human variation, human history, or where our ideas come from, great, justifying anything based on the past though seems rather silly to me. Afterall concepts such as education, equality, freedom are very modern and couldn't be supported on historical precedents for many centuries back.

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Greece and other cultures are worth discussing because if things are "natural" then I would argue that there shouldn't be variation. There is much variation across and within human socieities throughout time.

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ORIGINAL: sophia37

Birth order plays a part to our personalities for sure. Maybe you're an oldest child.

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ORIGINAL: Rover

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ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Greece and other cultures are worth discussing because if things are "natural" then I would argue that there shouldn't be variation. There is much variation across and within human socieities throughout time.

And I agree, though we are not in agreement as to what is being observed. Whether it is orientation influenced by culture, or culture alone.

I do know that modern studies (I've noted them previously) did not demonstrate orientation to be influenced by the environment in which one was raised, or even the gender in which one was raised (if that gender was not their own).

John

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Hello Nosathro,
Nothing to flame you intended, but there's WAYYYYY more to knowing you're a Master than being into bondage.
suzanne