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RE: forced masculinity - 4/6/2005 10:30:49 PM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
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SweetDommes, LadyAngelika, GddssBella, and others,

Just a thought while My mind is drooling.....have any of You just sat and watched him in the shower?....absolutely fascinating

Gentle Lady

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All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

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Profile   Post #: 221
RE: forced masculinity - 4/6/2005 10:38:58 PM   
GentleLady


Posts: 356
Joined: 2/1/2005
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One of the things I tell My submissives is that I want them to be self-confident and bursting with pride. I want them to hold their heads high in life and know that they are valuable. My feeling is that if a male has enough pride in who he is then he can be a gentleman easily because he is not trying to prove his masculinity to the world. He just is masculine. I remind them that they have something vanilla males never have. They KNOW that when they go home at night they are pleasing their Lady. They KNOW that they are behaving in a correct way. They never have to worry about being "good enough" in bed or in the relationship. This allows them to take great pride in who they are and makes room for more tender feelings and courtly behaviours because they are feeling secure.

Gentle Lady

_____________________________

All things are possible to those who have patience, try, and are willing to learn.

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Profile   Post #: 222
RE: forced masculinity - 4/7/2005 12:00:41 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GentleLady


One of the things I tell My submissives is that I want them to be self-confident and bursting with pride. I want them to hold their heads high in life and know that they are valuable. My feeling is that if a male has enough pride in who he is then he can be a gentleman easily because he is not trying to prove his masculinity to the world. He just is masculine. I remind them that they have something vanilla males never have. They KNOW that when they go home at night they are pleasing their Lady. They KNOW that they are behaving in a correct way. They never have to worry about being "good enough" in bed or in the relationship. This allows them to take great pride in who they are and makes room for more tender feelings and courtly behaviours because they are feeling secure.

Gentle Lady



This is just fabulous GL ...

As for the shower thing, unfortunately, there is barely enough room in our bathroom to move, much less sit and admire anything *sigh* but when we move, you better believe that I'll make sure that it's possible

(in reply to GentleLady)
Profile   Post #: 223
The drama stops here - 4/7/2005 10:16:22 AM   
Guest
 I've edited this thread for some of the more obvious flames. Continued flaming will result in this thread being locked and/or deleted, which I hope to not have to do, since there is a lot of relevant discussion.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
  Post #: 224
RE: The drama stops here - 4/7/2005 6:52:22 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorEight

I've edited this thread for some of the more obvious flames. Continued flaming will result in this thread being locked and/or deleted, which I hope to not have to do, since there is a lot of relevant discussion.



I appreciate this, thank you.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: The drama stops here - 4/7/2005 8:51:39 PM   
GddssBella


Posts: 343
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline 		G'evening all:


Thank you for your intervention Mod8.


Stay safe all, play nice, & share your toys w/ others....





Bella

_____________________________

Life shouldn't be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly shouting..."Wow! What a ride!"

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Profile   Post #: 226
RE: forced masculinity - 4/9/2005 5:24:49 PM   
Spike1777


Posts: 85
Joined: 3/19/2005
From: Hollywod, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GddssBella

Over the years, society has unfortunately conditioned men to see the finer, more gracious aspects of gentlemanly behavior as weak, a threat to their ego & virility.


Hello GddssBella

These "finer, more gracious aspects of gentlemanly behaviour" sound very interesting. Is this a subject that you might be willing to elaborate on?

respectfully
little spike

(in reply to GddssBella)
Profile   Post #: 227
RE: forced masculinity - 4/10/2005 12:37:03 PM   
ElektraUkM


Posts: 309
Joined: 2/19/2005
Status: offline 		What are the differences between 'gentlemanly' and 'masculine'? To me they seem considerably different... perhaps 'gentlemanly' being less 'macho' (bringing something else in..?) than 'masculine'... but perhaps also belonging to a different scenario. A man acts in a gentlemanly fashion in public... or in a more structured circumstance... masculinity coming in when something more 'base' is involved... a fight, or sex..? generalising wildly here and probably not thinking about the same thing Dommes are..? I don't know... i think i'm being all traditional and you all have a new manner of defining 'masculine'... one that doesn't include the idea of dominance, powerful... powerful in the sense of being the one in charge.

What i'm whaffling my way to asking is... what IS this definition (if there is one?) of 'masculine' that is being discussed here... male beauty and ability to serve..? is that masculinity? Should there be another word for what you're thinking of..?

I'm also thinking of Greer's Female Eunuch... the idea of the 'feminine' defined by culture... taking away the power of Female, and replacing it with something stunted... how does this fit in.

Apologies for rambling.

~ Elektra

(in reply to Spike1777)
Profile   Post #: 228
RE: forced masculinity - 4/10/2005 12:41:58 PM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		I've semi-waded thru all this with flames, etc.

I tend to be into more andro people who I can "force" either way. I like to do my forced masculinity thang on the ladies. :)

(in reply to ElektraUkM)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: forced masculinity - 3/6/2006 7:39:26 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


My kink is masculanization. I feel a lot of men have lost touch of their masculinity. They have been "dénaturé" as we say in French, which is to take out of it's native environment, to deprive of its natural character, properties, etc,


Here's a MONSTER THREAD that generated 229 posts and who knows now many stricken posts in addition to that. Irregardless of the positions taken, this thread pushed the envelope and the posters became emotionally invested in their writing.

There was:

1) conflict
2) opposing points of view
3) controversy

---------

What I don't understand is the desire to "Moderate" poster interaction such that nothing kinetic, real, challenging, and emotional ever happens. If people want a knock-down drag out fight on a thread, why not let them have it out? I think the key to moderation would be to insure that fights in the thread stayed in the thread --- as opposed to stopping the fights altogether.

Here's another idea, why not have an UNMODERATED forum area or at least one with less, less strict moderation?

I read the whole thread here, and I did not see anything that mandated the locking of the thread or overt intervention.

Are posters really that dangerous and deranged that they cannot be trusted and hence must be treated as unruly children? I dunno.

Anyway, the topic struck me as humourous. Its simply insane on some level to talk about the "Masculinization" of males. It makes about as much sense as the feminization of females. What does make sense is the feminization of males and the masculinization of females. But, you cannot really give "male traits" to males because we already have them.

What you might have is a refinement of pre-existing masculinity along a certain path ----- maybe towards tuxedos and ballroom dancing or to beat up jeans and a sweaty tee-shirt in the yard doing work. You might also work on manners --- but this has nothing at all to do with masculinization --- its just straight behavior training and letting out what already pre exists.

The thread got colorful because the women on it clearly enjoy men as men, which infers a slap in the face for sissies and CDs --- so a fight broke out. Good reading indeed. Its exactly what a MB should be. I say, HERE HERE!!

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 230
RE: forced masculinity - 3/6/2006 8:11:21 PM   
LthrdWolf


Posts: 92
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
One of the first things is to bring them back in touch with chivalry. I like a man to open doors for me and help me with my coat.


I find it incredible that when I do simple things like this, women swoon. I open the door for everyone. I stand up when a woman enters the room, or when I am greeting a man. I help my lady into her coat. All of these things I learned from my father, and I imagine his dissaproval were I to stop.

I think one of the problems is that so many men have no idea how they are supposed to behave in these situations. There should be a modern book of male ettiquite...hmm...sounds like a project.

Taggard




Sounds Wonderful! 'I' (even as a lesbian,not speaking for any of my gay sisters) love having my doors opened & held ...my groceries carried ...chair pulled out ...coat assisted etc etc ...it is a pleasure!

Thank you to the 'gentlemen' who 'still' are or perhaps are starting (again) to do this.It does not take away from my feminism to my way of thinking,but rather adds to it - respect wise.

LthrdWolf ...one of the most gentle'manly' bio men I knew did all this & more.He was Gay - not feminine at all.He was known far & wide for many things ...& is sorely missed by many - regardless of orientation.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 6:13:50 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Ok. So I have a fetish. It's masculinity. It isn't my only fetish, but it one of them and one that I rarely see discussed.

Yes I'm bi. Yes I love feminity as well. But it seems that most sub boys that I cross are searching to be feminized and there is nothing wrong with that, we all have our kinks.

My kink is masculanization. I feel a lot of men have lost touch of their masculinity. They have been "dénaturé" as we say in French, which is to take out of it's native environment, to deprive of its natural character, properties, etc,

I like to bring a man in touch with his true masculinity. Not some macho overcompensation but what it is to be a true gentleman, to take pride in manhood, in strength, etc.

Any other Domme share my fetish?

- LA


I would say I prefer androgynous men and women both but after that I prefer a gentleman, someone who is happy being a man but whom feels no need to prove he has a cock by embracing some stereotype or acting macho.

I do find myself turned off in general by men and women who are feminine in dress or seem to have more stereotypical feminine behaviors and interests.

Overall I'd say I like scholars and geeks and their sort of a subset that tends a bit toward androgyny. I could more specific but this thread seems to have started a fire-war for some reason.

I wouldn't call it a fetish for me -- slave owning and seeing slave collars, those are more my fetishes.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 232
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 6:24:20 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
One of the first things is to bring them back in touch with chivalry. I like a man to open doors for me and help me with my coat.


I find it incredible that when I do simple things like this, women swoon. I open the door for everyone. I stand up when a woman enters the room, or when I am greeting a man. I help my lady into her coat. All of these things I learned from my father, and I imagine his dissaproval were I to stop.

I think one of the problems is that so many men have no idea how they are supposed to behave in these situations. There should be a modern book of male ettiquite...hmm...sounds like a project.

Taggard




Fox does these things all the time -- again its how his father trained him to be polite. He doesn't do it simply on the basis of the perceived gender of the person he's opening doors for either.

The difference is that he does it to be polite and to show respect not to show he's stronger or protective or things that some people have objected to with "chivalrous" behavior.

As an aside: I did an experiment in college when I worked for the business school and was in charge of their mail room. I'd dress more or less femme and sexy on different days and keep track of how much mail I was moving around and how many people opened doors for me and under what circumstances. Women tended to open doors for me regardless of how many boxes I was wheeling around though they'd often frown if my skirt was short. Men tended to open doors more under two conditions: skirt and number of boxes. If I was in pants or shorts I had to have alot of boxes before a guys standing right there opened the door -- but if I was in a skirt it was more likely he'd open the door. And the best of all -- if I had a short skirt on and only one box, several times men would "compete" to open a door for me.

That experiment pissed me off.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 233
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 6:33:55 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, now that I've worked my way through this thread I did want to point out that many of the "masculine traits" being mentioned (loyalty, strength, protectiveness, confidence, etc) are personality traits they aren't really biological determined. They can be a gender trait if you feel they apply more to males.

Personally I find these traits to be the ones I'd want in any submissive, any dominant, any friend, any colleague, anyone I would respect and want to spend time with.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 234
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 6:41:31 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		They are also traits many subs/slaves claim as being important to them and in a lot of cases what it was that first attracted them to their doms (gender neutral) or past partners. And agree they are traits I'd want in anyone I have time for.

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 7:51:55 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Ok, now that I've worked my way through this thread I did want to point out that


Don't you think that it is / can be fun, interesting, and otherwise worthwhile to go back and explore old threads? As a historian, Tammyjo, what would you think of a CMMB policy that forbid you from posting on old threads?

Put another way, when is it "wrong" to explore an old thread and post on it?

Do you think there should be a prohibition against such posting?

I ask, because I have been told never to do it again. I was told that I was "bumping dead threads."

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 236
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 8:36:05 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


quote:

Ok, now that I've worked my way through this thread I did want to point out that


Don't you think that it is / can be fun, interesting, and otherwise worthwhile to go back and explore old threads? As a historian, Tammyjo, what would you think of a CMMB policy that forbid you from posting on old threads?

Put another way, when is it "wrong" to explore an old thread and post on it?

Do you think there should be a prohibition against such posting?

I ask, because I have been told never to do it again. I was told that I was "bumping dead threads."


HUH?!

I just saw this thread this morning and it was marked as brand new -- I was amazed by the number of posts in it.

Geesh, I spend one day just writing and everyone gets very intense and writes like crazy on here.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 237
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 8:52:43 AM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		To be perfectly frank cloudboy, the only opinions on this issue that matter are those of the admins. While they are always interested in input from the users, system rules are not decided upon by a user committee. If you want to discuss the 'no thread bumping' policy, or any rules the admins have put in place, please feel free to contact the admins directly and do so. This is not the place for such discussions or passive-aggressive complaints about the rules.

Thank you.

XI

_____________________________

This mod goes to eleven.

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Profile   Post #: 238
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 9:13:11 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorEleven

To be perfectly frank cloudboy, the only opinions on this issue that matter are those of the admins. While they are always interested in input from the users, system rules are not decided upon by a user committee. If you want to discuss the 'no thread bumping' policy, or any rules the admins have put in place, please feel free to contact the admins directly and do so. This is not the place for such discussions or passive-aggressive complaints about the rules.

Thank you.

XI


Thank you for the reply. I had an email exchange with Moderatorone about this, and she helped clarify the policy. I was just happy to learn from her that reading old threads and posting on them is NOT ipso-facto prohibited. As she explained, there is a calculus of letting old wounds heal and promoting newer threads over older ones, hence the term "bumping," which was alien to me until today. But, posting substantive comments on older threads is not wrong or prohibited --- provided the circumstances for such posting are reasonable and not inflamatory.

It is just my sincere hope that all moderators have some sense of history and the meaning of that history to the CMMB and the posters on it.

I do not think it is a service to anyone to regard old threads as "dead."

(in reply to ModeratorEleven)
Profile   Post #: 239
RE: forced masculinity - 3/7/2006 9:28:45 AM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		Please keep in mind that resurrecting a flame-fest because you feel that's "exactly what a MB should be", does not fall under the acceptable reasons for bumping a dead thread.

XI

_____________________________

This mod goes to eleven.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 240
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