RE: going too far (Full Version)

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cjenny -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 4:07:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic
Master/slave relationships are about play; sometimes very heavy play, but play none the less. If anyone has ANY doubt, just ask any legally qualified person. Real slavery is a crime.

In this lifestyle, we do fantasy slavery. To my mind, any sub who allows themselves to be put in a position where they give up all control, to the point that they believe they must take any punishment no matter how serious, has real head problems.


The way I live my life, it's not fantasy.  It's not (always) play.

Yes, there are laws in my land that do not allow my owner to hold me against my will.  But there are also laws in my land that do not allow my owner to hit me, even if I like it.

It's my prerogative as a free human being and citizen of the United States to not only have these freedoms under the law - but also to put these freedoms aside for the duration of my relationship.  If I need them, they're there.  But I plan to never need them.


This is exactly my confusion!! If you say that you do not use them.. then they infact do exist. The option out does exist as you cannot 'not' use something that isn't there.
I am either totally obtuse or I am totally unable to formulate what I am trying to ask.


*stamped  MO even if confused.



ownedgirlie -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 7:21:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MLskajira
as she stated before... she KNOWS that most who have been through what she has are dead, isolated or scared. there is NO assumption, it is a fact.
no where in any of her statements has she said that what happened to you was any worse or not as bad as what happened to the slave in this story.
and this girl doesnt see where she has challenged you or anyone else.
why are you so defensive?


I am not at all defensive, actually.  I have nothing to defend myself for.  It appears my point is being lost in translation, so I will leave you to your post.



SirDominic -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 8:52:17 PM)

quote:

For those "Masters" who believe they have total and complete to do with their slaves as they will - that is hogwash, too. These people have lost all sense of reality, as far as I am concerned. Master/slave relationships are about play; sometimes very heavy play, but play none the less. If anyone has ANY doubt, just ask any legally qualified person. Real slavery is a crime.

By Leonidas, logged in as his slave, again.

It is so funny. We had this debate over a decade ago on the old ASB, and I guess it still goes on, or people who weren't party to those debates just keep stirring the same damn pot. Some people don't play at this. There are people who have completely surrendered their autonomy in return for their owner accepting responsibility for their well-being and the outcomes in their lives. We call them slaves. No, they have not lost all sense of reality, they just live a reality that you do not. Legality has nothing to do with consensual (though absolutely real) enslavement. Legality only comes into play if someone decides that they don't want to be a slave anymore.

You don't have to like it. You don't have to do it. If play is the alpha and omega for you, keep right on playing. Just try to muster up maybe just a little bit of respect for those for whom it isn't, if you can.

Leonidas, I knew someone would bring up this point, was waiting for it. I never said there are not couples in which a slave willingly gives up "all autonomy to a Master. The operative word is "willingly". You said it yourself "Legality has nothing to do with consensual (though absolutely real) enslavement. Legality only comes into play if someone decides that they don't want to be a slave anymore."

That is the same thing I said. So where are we in disagreement?

I'm also curious why you chose to include your last paragraph. Did I say I had a problem with people choosing your lifestyle? Did I say I didn't like it? I made no comments either way; it was you who assumed I had a problem or somehow didn't respect people who choose your version of the lifestyle. That just ain't so. I make it my business to live and let live.

It seems to me that it was the word "play" that really bothered you. As if by playing I'm not being real about it and you are. If so, then that was a bad choice of a word on my part. I'm a Dom who takes my responsibilities very seriously, it is not just a lark for me. I may not be in as total a relationship as you; that doesn't mean I take it any less seriously.

Because there is real slavery in this country. Men and women who are bought and sold, and have absolutely NO say in what happens to them and are trapped in a situation that they never will. That is real slavery, and again, that is illegal. It has no more to do with your lifestyle choice than it does with mine.

With respect, Sir Dominic




MzMia -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 9:05:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
quote:

ORIGINAL: MLskajira
if a girl finds herself in a situation with her Master where the blows are becomming too hard, does she have the right to stop the session and even tell Him she will involve the police if He does not?
not just because she does not feel like haveing a session, but because she is afraid He will do actual damage if not checked.
or should she wait it out and talk to Him afterwards?



it depends. if the girl in question is an unowned submissive, AND there are safewords or something of that nature established in the relationship, then she has the right to stop the session and tell her Master exactly how she feels. explain that she's scared and that things are going past her level of comfort. involving the police may be taking it a bit far.
if the girl in question is a slave, then imo she has no right to stop or control anything, tho if it's permitted by her Master, she may have the right to share her feelings and concerns with him. but if she is a slave she should already understand that life for a slave is not all peaches and cream, and sometimes we must suffer for the One who owns us.



daddysprop, I have to say I admire your dedication and sincerity to your Master.
Isn't this the time you would use safe words? If you have to involve the police, than
this is not a person you should be dealing with. 



Bluemoon100 -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 9:09:06 PM)

Hi, I want to know how and where can I learn more about this or can you teach me about it.[8D]



ImpGrrl -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 9:39:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjenny

This is exactly my confusion!! If you say that you do not use them.. then they infact do exist. The option out does exist as you cannot 'not' use something that isn't there.
I am either totally obtuse or I am totally unable to formulate what I am trying to ask.


*stamped  MO even if confused.


You're not confused, I don't think.

In Western society, we cannot fully give up the rights our governments say that we have.  That's undeniable.  But we *can* life as if those rights are nonexistent - making them moot until they are needed.



MzMia -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 10:07:05 PM)

I totally agree, can we agree that there is a difference between a submissive and a slave?
Also, there are levels of submission also.
Great thread.



ImpGrrl -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 10:20:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I totally agree, can we agree that there is a difference between a submissive and a slave?
Also, there are levels of submission also.
Great thread.


No, I can't agree to that.  Not in general terms.



ardelle -> RE: going too far (1/6/2007 11:13:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MLskajira

if a girl finds herself in a situation with her Master where the blows are becomming too hard, does she have the right to stop the session and even tell Him she will involve the police if He does not?
not just because she does not feel like haveing a session, but because she is afraid He will do actual damage if not checked.
or should she wait it out and talk to Him afterwards?


Greetings
 
I am not sure what kind of 'situation' you are referring to so I will make an assumption that it is in regards to 'play' or 'scenes' ?
 
Using only my own opinion; I would suggest waiting and then talking it over after-wards. Threatening to call in law enforcement seems very extreme; and can carry consequences far more reaching than just ending the 'play' or 'scene'.



MLskajira -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 8:07:00 AM)

lets say it was not a scene, that the Master had misinformation and it was ment to be punishment, but He was too angry and it turned into an abusive situation.
this girl wishes to say that if there are some out there that would not lift a finger to save their own lives, that is between them and their Owner.
this girl, on the other hand, is her Master's prized posession and He has gifted her with the responsibility of damage control, so to allow Him to do damage to her would be against His direct orders, not to mention that this girl has a STRONG survival instinct and would fight back regardless, if she thought she was in serious trouble. even to the point of calling the police if she could end it no other way.
please understand that she is not trying to make a judgement call on A/anyone or T/their choice of how T/they interact with each O/other.



Tikkiee -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 8:14:15 AM)

quote:

that the Master had misinformation and it was ment to be punishment,

and where did he receive the misinformation from?



bandit25 -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 8:21:23 AM)

If you already know the answer...why the question? 



MLskajira -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 8:56:36 AM)

the question was supposed to make others think and teach.
and does the source of misinformation really matter? it was misinformation and the slave was almost (or maybe she WAS) seriously harmed because of it.



bandit25 -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 8:59:16 AM)

Well, I don't know how you would teach anything in anyone else's dynamic, especially here on the forum.  If you want to simply share something that happened to you...that's your decision, but I doubt if anyone is going to actually learn anythign from it.



MLskajira -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 9:16:23 AM)

you may not, but that doesnt mean others wouldnt
and it is teaching me a lot, so there.



daddysprop247 -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 9:39:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
quote:

ORIGINAL: MLskajira
if a girl finds herself in a situation with her Master where the blows are becomming too hard, does she have the right to stop the session and even tell Him she will involve the police if He does not?
not just because she does not feel like haveing a session, but because she is afraid He will do actual damage if not checked.
or should she wait it out and talk to Him afterwards?



it depends. if the girl in question is an unowned submissive, AND there are safewords or something of that nature established in the relationship, then she has the right to stop the session and tell her Master exactly how she feels. explain that she's scared and that things are going past her level of comfort. involving the police may be taking it a bit far.
if the girl in question is a slave, then imo she has no right to stop or control anything, tho if it's permitted by her Master, she may have the right to share her feelings and concerns with him. but if she is a slave she should already understand that life for a slave is not all peaches and cream, and sometimes we must suffer for the One who owns us.



daddysprop, I have to say I admire your dedication and sincerity to your Master.
Isn't this the time you would use safe words? If you have to involve the police, than
this is not a person you should be dealing with. 


MzMia, speaking for myself only, there is no time where i would use safewords or alert some outside authorities because those things are simply not permitted in my relationship. my Master has the right to do with me what he wills and i fully understood that when i agreed to become his property. as MLskajira put it, i would not "lift a finger" to save my own life because in my case that would be going against what my Master wants and demands.



MsLadySue -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 10:15:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

For those "Masters" who believe they have total and complete to do with their slaves as they will - that is hogwash, too. These people have lost all sense of reality, as far as I am concerned. Master/slave relationships are about play; sometimes very heavy play, but play none the less. If anyone has ANY doubt, just ask any legally qualified person. Real slavery is a crime. 



I agree with SirDominic. Where is it written that a slave has no rights simply because he/she is property? I suspect I will receive flack for my reponse but I cannot understand someone wanting to take complete control of another's life or why a person want to exist without rights, especially to question their owner's actions when necessary.



bandit25 -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 10:20:02 AM)

I don't think it's written anywhere and, for the record, I agree; however, I have come to believe that there are some that honestly have given up all rights...that their Masters can do whatever they choose, inlcuding giving them away, maiming...whatever.  One can only hope that those slaves picked a sane Master.



Leonidas -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 10:54:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

For those "Masters" who believe they have total and complete to do with their slaves as they will - that is hogwash, too. These people have lost all sense of reality, as far as I am concerned. Master/slave relationships are about play; sometimes very heavy play, but play none the less. If anyone has ANY doubt, just ask any legally qualified person. Real slavery is a crime.


What part of "Master/slave relationships are about play" did you think I misunderstood?  Some people do hold that view, which, by the way, is a perfectly valid point of view.  I assumed because you said it, that you believed it.  I have no problem with someone thinking that M/s is all about play.  I do have a problem with someone thinking that I'm deluded because I don't.

Real slavery is not a crime.  Real slavery cannot be legally or otherwise imposed on a slave against their will where I live.  That's a pretty big difference.  A person, willingly, can in every way submit themselves to slavery, and remain in that condition for as long as they are willing.  The definition of slave, which I'll provide here for your convenience, does not require legal sanction or enforcement against the will of the slave:

1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence

I hold my slave in servitude to me as my chattel (property).  She views herself the same way, and has willingly submitted to that condition of servitude as the property of another.  There is nothing in the definition of "slave" that requires unwillingness on her part.  Unwillingness is just commonly assumed by people who grew up in a culture where there aren't many slaves, and where they are taught from an early age that slavery is "bad", and so they don't know any better than to assume that any actual slave would never be one willingly.

quote:

I'm also curious why you chose to include your last paragraph. Did I say I had a problem with people choosing your lifestyle? Did I say I didn't like it? I made no comments either way; it was you who assumed I had a problem or somehow didn't respect people who choose your version of the lifestyle. That just ain't so. I make it my business to live and let live.


quote:

It seems to me that it was the word "play" that really bothered you. As if by playing I'm not being real about it and you are. If so, then that was a bad choice of a word on my part. I'm a Dom who takes my responsibilities very seriously, it is not just a lark for me. I may not be in as total a relationship as you; that doesn't mean I take it any less seriously.


Nope.  Your use of the word "play" didn't offend me in the least.  Some people are very uncomfortable with the notion of "slavery" unless they put a play context around it.  The way they see it is they're just playing master/slave, but if the slave ever needs to step out of their "slave" role and talk to their owner "out of character" as their equal (which they are always presumed to be), they are free to do so.  That's perfectly valid, and I would never argue that what I do is superior to what they do, if it makes them happy.  It will piss me off rather intensely, though, if they presume to tell me that I'm a deluded nut-job because I don't put a play context around what I do.

quote:

Because there is real slavery in this country. Men and women who are bought and sold, and have absolutely NO say in what happens to them and are trapped in a situation that they never will. That is real slavery, and again, that is illegal. It has no more to do with your lifestyle choice than it does with mine.


That is slavery enforced against the will of the enslaved.  Yep, it's illegal where I live.  It is not, however, the only kind of slavery that is "real".

As I said, we've debated this to death over the years, and you and I may just end up needing to agree to respectfully disagree with each other, which is more than fine.





Tikkiee -> RE: going too far (1/7/2007 11:39:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MLskajira

the question was supposed to make others think and teach.
and does the source of misinformation really matter? it was misinformation and the slave was almost (or maybe she WAS) seriously harmed because of it.


In my opinion, YES, it matters a great deal. So, you wanted to bring this up...I will again ask....where did the source of the misinformation come from?



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