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Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 12:25:17 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

now it's very rare i post something on a message board asking for advice or help from others, not because i don't need it, but because i usually feel that i and my situation are so different from others that no one will be able to relate. hopefully this will not be one of those cases.

guilt has always been a major issue for me. specifically, guilt over receiving any sort of pleasure from someone else. if i happen to become aroused during sex, or worse yet, actually have an orgasm, i feel IMMENSE feelings of guilt..guilty for being so selfish that i 1. wanted those feelings and/or 2. was not able to suppress them...guilty for not having 100% total and complete focus on the One i am serving, guilty for possibly causing a distraction, therefore (in my mind) potentially making the experience less enjoyable and self-absorbing for the One i'm serving, etc.
and the guilt is not just related to sexual things. if my Master does something nice for me, that i know he is doing only to bring me a moment of happiness, whether it's treating me to an ice cream cone or getting me a particular outfit, the guilt that results always far overshadows any pleasure i would have had.

i know this is something that my Master would like for me to eventually overcome...he doesn't want me to lose the ability to experience pleasure, and he does not wish for me to be guilty if i experience pleasure of any kind that is right and mindful of my place. He does not feel it would ever be possible for me to be so caught up in self that i would forget my place or negatively act out because i experienced pleasure, therefore he doesn't forsee it being possible for him to ever be displeased because i experienced some sort of pleasure.

but even knowing these things, i'm still plagued with guilt in these situations. so i guess i'm asking if i'm alone in these feelings, if this is something common for a submissive or slave, or if i'm just a freak as i am in most cases, lol. also, how can one work to overcome this? what justification can i give my hardwired subbie brain so that i know that pleasure is not something to be guilty about?

Post #: 1

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 12:32:20 PM

behindmirrors

Posts: 340
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline

The first thing I can think of, off the top of my head, is that when your Master does something to make you happy, he's doing it of his own perrogative- meaning, it makes him happy to do that "something" for you that you will enjoy. As a slave, you want to please your Master- so, sharing in happiness with him is pleasing in that case, and not something to be guilty for- it's what he wants of you. You don't seem to be someone who has guilt in the act of serving or pleasing your Master, so realize that your happiness is also something that will please him, a service he would appreciate from you- and nothing to be guilty for.

Speaking of Masters, I have to go drive mine to work- I'll put in a longer reply with more thoughts when I get back.
behindmirrors.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 2

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 12:33:00 PM

shadevarr

Posts: 360
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline

I am reprogramming my girl to overcome a very similar thing. With her, she feels that she is not worth enough to have nice things done for her or to gain pleasure from the things that I do to her. With me, I really enjoy it when my girl is happy or loses herself in orgasms that I caused and it is taking a lot of time and patience to get her to understand that it is those reactions what I want and what makes me happy. Hence, in order for her to better serve me, she needs to simply and truly enjoy it when I buy her something or do something. I hope this helps a bit, I know your relationship is quite different but for one, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and just keep telling yourself that you exist for his pleasure and if you experiencing guiltless pleasure makes him happy then that is what has to happen.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 3

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 12:38:44 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

It’s extremely common. One of the hardest things for some subs to surrender is the concept of self-pleasure.

Other than twisting your head into the concept that it IS ok to think about yourself, that it IS ok to enjoy things directly, that it IS a good thing to enjoy the experience for yourself, there’s not much to be done.

You have to agree with the idea that a slave can and should consider her own reactions, and should take pleasure in what she can. I’m not the one telling you this- your master is the one telling you this.

Guilt is never as easy as simply explaining it away. I often tease my partner that the only true Jewishness he retains is his guilt. But over the 2+ years I’ve known him, he’s made incredible progress with recognizing and letting go of the guilt. He still automatically reacts with guilt, but can far more quickly let it drop away from him.

It’s all about how you frame the way you process things. You need to agree that you deserve the pleasure. You need to agree that he is still in authority by deciding to give you that pleasure just as much as he is by deciding to give you that pain.

After that, it's just a matter of practice.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 4

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 12:42:04 PM

onestandingstill

Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

what justification can i give my hardwired subbie brain so that i know that pleasure is not something to be guilty about?

Hi There,
I personally have not met someone with such dee feelings of guilt.
It makes me wonder what sort of life you had as a child that brought you to the place of not feeling like you're deserving to have any pleasure of your own.
I'd say knowing your Master wants you to enjoy things, wants to please you at times, and wants to see you comfortable with some pleasures you have just for you may work to help you change inside your heart.
I know....... you'll be changing for him, but in the end you'll be victorious for you both.
To be a useful vessel does not mean you can't feel pleased too.
Remember your own pleasure often not only does not take away from another person's pleasure but rather compounds it so both of you have more joy.

Another way to think about this is you belong to your Master.
If your Master's happy you do something that brings you pleasure the responsibility of that pleasure also lays at his feet.
If he does not feel guilty and it's his responsibility why should you?

In reality I'd recommend some counseling.
I think if you got help it would be better for you and your Master to get past this point of not feeling worthy of pleasure.
suzanne

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 5

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 12:42:06 PM

drawntothedark

Posts: 572
Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline

I am trying to over come something simular. I am fine in vanilla playing fields.......but when it comes to Dom's and sex with a Dom I feel that my pleasure is something to hide and ignore. I almost succeded in that thinking and almost lost all my sexual responsivness when it came to this subject. However, After speaking with my Dom about this he wanted me to know that 1.) He wanted and required my sexual responses 2.) He will be controling all my orgasms from now on and that if I couldn't have them he had nothing to control. 3.) It makes him very happy to know that from his hand or his order that I lose control and cum.

Sooo for me that thinking helped. I started thinking not only was it required of me but it would be a good thing that would make him pleased with me.

Silly I know. But it helped me.

(in reply to shadevarr)

Post #: 6

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 1:02:19 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It’s extremely common. One of the hardest things for some subs to surrender is the concept of self-pleasure.

Other than twisting your head into the concept that it IS ok to think about yourself, that it IS ok to enjoy things directly, that it IS a good thing to enjoy the experience for yourself, there’s not much to be done.

LA, i think you've hit it above...those 3 things you mentioned, are all things that i've been conditioned (not by my Master) to believe are NOT okay, and since i've been owned, eradicating those 3 things completely have been major goals.

part of the difficulty is that my Master is not one of those types who has a desire to control my pleasure, or who "gets off" from giving me pleasure. He wishes for me to be able to experience pleasure, but he never wants me to expect or even hope for pleasure at any particular moment. He does indeed want me to ultimately be selfless...don't think of self, don't worry about or focus on self. yet at the same time it's important to him that i experience pleasure from time to time, that i do enjoy some things some times. that may seem confusing to some. basically, pleasure is okay. but wanting or feeling entitled to pleasure, or allowing that pleasure to take focus away (even slightly) from service, not okay. and i just do not know if this is possible.

so it's much easier to simply be the slavebot in these situations...remaining in perfect obedience and service, yet experiencing no direct pleasure.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 7

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 1:12:45 PM

junecleaver

Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

now it's very rare i post something on a message board asking for advice or help from others, not because i don't need it, but because i usually feel that i and my situation are so different from others that no one will be able to relate. hopefully this will not be one of those cases.

guilt has always been a major issue for me. specifically, guilt over receiving any sort of pleasure from someone else. if i happen to become aroused during sex, or worse yet, actually have an orgasm, i feel IMMENSE feelings of guilt..guilty for being so selfish that i 1. wanted those feelings and/or 2. was not able to suppress them...guilty for not having 100% total and complete focus on the One i am serving, guilty for possibly causing a distraction, therefore (in my mind) potentially making the experience less enjoyable and self-absorbing for the One i'm serving, etc.
and the guilt is not just related to sexual things. if my Master does something nice for me, that i know he is doing only to bring me a moment of happiness, whether it's treating me to an ice cream cone or getting me a particular outfit, the guilt that results always far overshadows any pleasure i would have had.

i know this is something that my Master would like for me to eventually overcome...he doesn't want me to lose the ability to experience pleasure, and he does not wish for me to be guilty if i experience pleasure of any kind that is right and mindful of my place. He does not feel it would ever be possible for me to be so caught up in self that i would forget my place or negatively act out because i experienced pleasure, therefore he doesn't forsee it being possible for him to ever be displeased because i experienced some sort of pleasure.

but even knowing these things, i'm still plagued with guilt in these situations. so i guess i'm asking if i'm alone in these feelings, if this is something common for a submissive or slave, or if i'm just a freak as i am in most cases, lol. also, how can one work to overcome this? what justification can i give my hardwired subbie brain so that i know that pleasure is not something to be guilty about?

I have feelings along these lines, but they aren't so intense. It's almost impossible for me to orgasm around a dominant, because I naturally focus on their needs instead of my own. Even being with partners who's biggest turn on was pleasuring me didn't work. So I don't have any good advice to give. Just letting you know, you're not alone in it.

_____________________________

"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 8

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 1:22:32 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Prop I'm afraid your master must make a choice then. You can either obey his orders to never think about yourself, or you can obey his orders to learn how to enjoy when he gives you pleasure.

You can't do both.

In order to learn to process things differently, in order to learn that you deserve the pleasure, you MUST think about yourself, you MUST care about how this feels to you. You're right, it is easier to be a bot in this case, there'd be nothing you'd need to learn or change if you could just deal with it.

But he's given you an order that conflicts with another order. He has to choose. I am NOT saying you need to learn to 'expect pleasure' or even 'desire pleasure.' I am saying that in order for you to follow his orders for you to grow and accept pleasure without guilt, it will require you to care for yourself, think about yourself, and accept that you deserve the pleasure.

And if HE doesn't allow that to happen, then it's actually only going to increase your guilt and conflict.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to junecleaver)

Post #: 9

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 1:25:30 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver
I have feelings along these lines, but they aren't so intense. It's almost impossible for me to orgasm around a dominant, because I naturally focus on their needs instead of my own. Even being with partners who's biggest turn on was pleasuring me didn't work. So I don't have any good advice to give. Just letting you know, you're not alone in it.

thanks june, i appreciate the camraderie anyway.

(in reply to junecleaver)

Post #: 10

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 1:35:11 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadevarr

I am reprogramming my girl to overcome a very similar thing. With her, she feels that she is not worth enough to have nice things done for her or to gain pleasure from the things that I do to her. With me, I really enjoy it when my girl is happy or loses herself in orgasms that I caused and it is taking a lot of time and patience to get her to understand that it is those reactions what I want and what makes me happy. Hence, in order for her to better serve me, she needs to simply and truly enjoy it when I buy her something or do something. I hope this helps a bit, I know your relationship is quite different but for one, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it and just keep telling yourself that you exist for his pleasure and if you experiencing guiltless pleasure makes him happy then that is what has to happen.

shadevarr, thanks for giving me a Dominant's perspective on all this, and for the advice. you are right, i do exist for his pleasure, and am quite comfortable with this fact. i suppose the problem for me comes from the fact that i see a direct conflict between guitless pleasure and pleasing/serving him (or anyone else for that matter). meaning, if i manage to experience some kind of direct pleasure for myself, then how could i have been 100% focused on service? even if my pleasure may be something my Master, or someone else i may serve, desires.

but the above applies only to sexual service. when it comes to other pleasures, like the ice cream cone or the outfit or whatever, like your girl a lot of my guilt does come from the fact that i don't feel genuinely deserving of such nice treatment, even if the one giving it says and feels otherwise.

(in reply to shadevarr)

Post #: 11

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 1:45:17 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Oh and I'll add that there needs to be an understanding that taking pleasure is PART of your service if he has ordered you to do so.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 12

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 2:12:03 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

Hi Daddysprop,

I have a question for you before I actually try to answer your OP.

When did your Daddy give you permission to own guilt? Guilt isn't something which is given to you, it's something you take. Pleasure is a gift which can be accepted with grace and gratitude. Guilt, on the other hand, is one of the most selfish emotions you can own. It does nothing for anyone but you. So, tell me.. how do you dare to be so selfish and take ownership of guilt and profess to be a slave at the same time? Where did the expectation come from that it was OK for you to own anything, much less guilt?

Just something to think about,

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 13

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 2:22:11 PM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

Although I can't contribute to this, I find it interesting. I don't see a conflict between enjoying an orgasm and being a slave...but that's just me.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 14

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 2:23:48 PM

blushingflower

Posts: 144
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Don't you take pleasure in serving him? Doesn't it make you feel good when you know that you've pleased him in some way, whether you fixed his drink correctly or given him a good blow job? You don't feel guilty about that, do you?
When your Master does something nice for you, it's because he wants to. Enjoying it does not necessarily mean that you are in some way failing to serve him.
You don't expect him to give you pleasure, you don't feel entitled to the pleasure, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to occasionally feel it. If it pleases your Master for you to feel pleasure, then you owe him your pleasure.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 15

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 2:43:35 PM

Kalira

Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline

No, you are not alone

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 16

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 3:54:04 PM

MmakeMme

Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline

This whole thing makes me feel overwhelmingly sad.

I'm going to go away from the BDSM side of this and put it into hippie chick granola for you, Daddysprop.

I don't know what happens when we leave these bodies. Maybe we're recycled. Maybe we go on to another level. But maybe, just maybe, this is ~it~. I don't know how old you are - haven't checked your profile - but it troubles me deeply to think that you will leave this place one day and wonder "What if I'd only ... ?" There is ~so~ much pleasure to be had here, so many reasons to feel ~good~ ... and to see such a beautiful young woman say she feels guilty for having someone do something nice for her, or to say she feels guilty for having an orgasm, just makes me ... sad. Don't waste this short precious time we have here, Sugar Girl. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees or the stars - you have a right to be here.

Click.

< Message edited by MmakeMme -- 1/3/2007 4:02:24 PM >

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

(in reply to Kalira)

Post #: 17

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 4:18:20 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I have had guilt issues my entire life. I have this bad habit of apologizing for everything bad that ever happens. It gets on my Daddy's nerves somewhat so I try not to do it. He does not want me to take responsibility for things outside my control, or for me to show signs I do not feel good about myself. He is absolutely right about watching the way I talk in relation to myself.

I have carried serious guilt over things that I had no control over to the point of them causing me great emotional difficulties, including panick attacks, and PTSD. Self love has helped me overcome much of these difficulties. I do not know if you are allowed to love yourself, but to not feel worthwhile enough to have pleasure in this world sounds like something not even related to submissiveness. Being submissive is not related to my sense of self love or self worth. If I found that it was I would not allow myself to have a Ds relationship and try to love myself out of that too. Thankfully I have found someone that insists that whomever he is with see her inherent value as a human being worthy of love and respect.

My point here is not to insult your dynamic or you. It is basically telling you that from what I learned overcoming my anxiety is that the thoughts which cause it are usually self depreciating ones. I do not know how one can overcome guilt if they feel unworthy of love, respect, dignity, and worthwhileness.

Good luck

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 18

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 5:24:59 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

I think there are probably many people who struggle with this in some form or another. My issues are not with sexual pleasure but from doing something pleasurable for myself that makes me unavailable to him for a period of time. I work on this by doing these things when I know he is going to be busy doing something else. His new work schedule has made this even easier for me to work on this issue.

Start small and don't expect big changes all at once. Consistently reinforce that the pleasure you are getting is his will for you to have.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 19

RE: Submissive Guilt - 1/3/2007 5:54:36 PM

shadevarr

Posts: 360
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline

Prop, it will take a lot of time to get past this wall and the first step is to realize that the pleasure that you felt was by design and you can learn to enjoy what is being done to you, even orgasm and continue pleasing him. There are some girls out there who can climax by just giving their master head. It is all in the mind.

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 20

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