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RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 2:49:55 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The Muslim council in question tries to take a civilized stance, one that may educate a few young 'uns as to a better use of religion, and people cry bullshit? It's almost as if people want Muslims to be terrorists.......because when they try not to be they still get stick.


Philo,
Much credit is given to any whisper in the wood from the Islamic community. As it should. Anything so rare is valuable. Why isn't the same consideration made for pro-USA whispers? No good was and is done by the USA? Are the self-loathing Representatives the only voices of reason?

Does any US Corporation represent me? NO! But as an 'American' I am subject to that stereotype. Am I a member or believe in any religious denomination? NO - yet I am stereotyped and so called 'Christian' activity is used to argue against points about Islam activities. The difference, and its a BIG difference, is that as religious dogma and as American dogma there is no goal similar to Islam's "join us or die".

Show me an example of any Islamic group distancing or eliminating that basic Islamic dogma. The pope visited Turkey and solicited inclusion at a museum that used to be a cathedral that used to be a mosque. Like him or not, he represents the leadership of the Catholic Church. PLEASE PLEASE point me to a similarly powerful Muslim cleric who offers the same homily?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 2:57:22 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		As i understand it Merc, (and i may be wrong), there is no equivilant for the Pope in Islam. It seems a far more decentralised religion with no single authority capable of speaking for all, a role the Pope fulfills for Catholics. Thus the equivilant voice is precisely the sort of thing that Fargle quoted, a national muslim council condemning terrorism.
Whenever you are stereotyped you are misrepresented, that is precisely the point i am making. Stereotypes tend to misrepresent individuals. We all can choose to try to look beyond stereotypes, i believe that when we do we more nearly approach an accurate view of things.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 282
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 2:59:05 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

I am an honest person, I read that as him wanting a Christian nation for Christians only, the rest of us do not belong.
Exactly my point. Nothing you quoted comes close to this: Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith but to become dominant, he said. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.


Whereas Christian fundamentalist pentacostals know deep in their hearts that the King James New Testament should be the highest authority in America.

You were trying to make a point that there is some difference between Muslims and Christians?

Fundamentalists of any stripe are the problem, not the colors of the jersey they wear.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 3:11:23 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There has yet to be one Christian who's bombed a bus full of children and justified it by his/her religion.



About 2 years ago, 60 Muslims were murdered by Christians in Nigeria due to religious tension and intolerance. There will be a link on the net.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/9/2007 3:12:05 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 3:11:25 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Fundamentalists of any stripe are the problem, not the colors of the jersey they wear.

Sinergy,
you know I can sign on for that.

quote:

there is no equivalent for the Pope in Islam.

Philo,
True and it is a response I've gotten in debates with Muslims. My follow up question then points to what they do have, sovereign countries. Many countries in the world represent themselves as "Muslim Countries". How do the words from leaders of those countries compare? I know I don't have to quote the Iranian President for you. But what of Saudi Arabia or any of the other "Muslim" states? Where is the voice of any leader of any Muslim country at the UN standing up at the general assembly making the same or similar proclamation as has been quoted?

There is ample opportunity. Condemnation of Israel and/or the USA are regularly scheduled events. Sometimes the condemnation even comes from the USA "allies". There are 192 countries that are current members of the UN. No Muslim country among them has ever stood up as a Muslim and condemned any terrorist act perpetrated under the name of his religion. It is the "rationalization" that I have in maintaining my opinion. It is no less irrational than declaring Pat Robertson's opinion to represent Christianity.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 3:23:14 PM   
Sinergy


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Hello A/all,

As part of my degree specializing in religious history (dual degree, the other was Asian history), I was able to read many sources including the Old and New Testament, the Koran, I Ching, Vedas, etc.

When you compare the various stories in both the Christian Bible (particularly the Old Testament) to the various stories and admonitions in the Koran, one discovers that the far more warlike and vengeful happens to be Christianity.  Islam has specific restrictions against killing other Muslims, has specific injunctions towards helping your fellow people, etc.  The New Testament mirrors many of these precepts.

The majority of Muslims live in Indonesia.  These people are not generally warlike, although the economic and political strife in that country begets war.  This war, however, does not have much more of a religious veneer than Ireland had.

The statement that Islam is a warlike religion is an ignorant statement.  Had you actually read the guiding principles of either Christianity or Islam, you would probably arrive at the conclusion that many of the most strident fundamentalist-type activists of either religion have little or no actual education or understanding of the founding beliefs of that religion.

One can interpret almost anything to justify their desire to kill somebody.  John Hinckly tried to kill Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster.  This does not, in and of itself, mean that Jodie Foster is evil.

Sinergy

edited because one Sinergy is enough.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 3:27:55 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

If it is a misrepresentation then it is extremely dangerous.

Intentionally extremely dangerous in order to suit right-wing xenophobic aims.

Why aren't the factions of radical Islam as much of a pariah (damn! Used that word twice in one day!) in their own culture as the American Nazi Party is in ours? I won't represent the stereotypical "some of my best friends are Muslims" but I have been to Mosques both in NYC and here and can't get any direct satisfactory explanation. The closest reason that I get is that within the Muslim religion it is a great 'sin' to condemn a fellow Muslim regardless of what they do. How's that for a rationalization?

Merc, do you remember all of those links I put up a while ago? There were people from all backgrounds and Islamic countries denouncing terrorism. Some Palestinians were even saying they do not blame the American people, only the American government - pretty charitable considering they've been under the cosh for a long time from American produced military equipment.
 
The Muslim Council of Britain are consistently on television and radio condemning terrorism (evidence was included in the links). Apart from knock on peoples' doors for a personal chat there's not much more they can do.

Because I'm taking the "word" from the "official source" of people representing they ARE hell bent on killing me, you, and everyone else not them. My right to belief them, yours not to. No 'judgement'.

Who is the official source? When did they say they were hell bent on killing you? If it is one man, how can one man speak for the entire Islamic world?


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 287
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 3:29:51 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Imagine if the world viewed the US as 300 million GWBs.
 
I personally view the misrepresentation of Islam as the most dangerous issue around at the moment.


They do view us as just that. at least the fundamentalists and a quick way to tip the scale from moderate to fundamentalist is to do gw did.

These people view life through their religion, even the moderates.  They have it tough frankly.  They do not like what they see but at the same time they like to have what we have in addition to what they have.

Its possible but eventually they slip into our way of life and of course many fear that it will destroy their society.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I learned of the existence of CAIR and visit their site regularly to learn more and hope one day to find a definitive clear mission statement from them representing that they condemn terrorist actions being conducted by people representing themselves as Muslim.


how could you expect that after we bomb them into the stone age, (like they were not already lol), over an oil deal?  Would you condemn terrorism if the same thing happened to you?  that and terrorism is our label, not theirs.  i think they call themselves freedom fighters. would we deny them the right to protect themsleves from an invading force by all means possible?

i would say you have to give them credit for at a minimum being true to their word of lack of it.   In america we just give it lip service so it "looks good" and our actions are no different.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The difference, and its a BIG difference, is that as religious dogma and as American dogma there is no goal similar to Islam's "join us or die".

 just with catholosism as an example its your god aint as good as my god and you will go to hell if you dont worship my god.  same thing as join us or die.

you get that from fundamentalists in any religion.
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
As i understand it Merc, (and i may be wrong), there is no equivilant for the Pope in Islam. It seems a far more decentralised religion with no single authority capable of speaking for all, a role the Pope fulfills for Catholics. Thus the equivilant voice is precisely the sort of thing that Fargle quoted, a national muslim council condemning terrorism.


its to diverse..  they have a sort of cardinal like system if you want to compare with cath.  i am pretty sure then the cards for any tribe hob nob and they would go to who they consider the tribal leader and the tribal leader would speak for that single faction which is different than the other factions
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Fundamentalists of any stripe are the problem, not the colors of the jersey they wear.

Sinergy



yep i would ditto that





_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 3:44:06 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Who is the official source? When did they say they were hell bent on killing you? If it is one man, how can one man speak for the entire Islamic world?
NG,
You tell me?
You don't see the possibility that one leader of one Muslim country would make a difference? The fact that none has made such a proclamation in front of the UN speaks to their position to me. To you - it doesn't; again - no judgment as to what position is correct. It would make a difference to me, and I'd give a standing ovation upon seeing/hearing it.

As to who from the Muslim world represents the Islamic position dedicated to the destruction of the USA, doesn't the President of Iran qualify? I know you have read and heard his often repeated proclamations regarding that goal. Feel free to compare him to President Bush and his entry into Iraqi, but you'll have to come up with an Iranian equivalent of active free opposition, now holding the majority of the public opinion poles saying we should be OUT of Iraq. I trust you've read how the opposition in Iran is treated? I happen to be in the USA. I choose to belief him - you don't. Again no judgment.

Am I in your group of the "handful of dedicated xenophobes" because I read his and many other similar positions made by the Muslim world choose to believe them? Label me as you will, as I've stated it's not my words or deeds that determine my position. My views are the result of trying to change them and, in doing the research, being unable to do so.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 4:37:38 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I think message 273 sufficiently provided the voice of Muslims denouncing violence in the name of The Lord.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 5:32:25 PM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There has yet to be one Christian who's bombed a bus full of children and justified it by his/her religion.



True.  Christians prefer to target African American churches and abortion clinics, using their religious views to
justify it.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 5:49:02 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Sinergy

One can interpret almost anything to justify their desire to kill somebody.  John Hinckly tried to kill Ronald Reagan to impress Jodie Foster.  This does not, in and of itself, mean that Jodie Foster is evil.


God that comparison just slays me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 5:56:45 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		http://www.edge.org/discourse/bb.html#atran

As a follow up to a conference run this past Nov., Scott Atran posted these comments.

I think everyone involved in the discussion owes it to themselves to take a look, take a break, and then discuss.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 6:00:25 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Here is an online book that I had to read for my anthropology and religion class that covered religious extremism, its roots and causes. It also shows the other side of the picture by showing how religion can be a force of peace.

http://wwics.si.edu/subsites/ccpdc/pubs/apple/frame.htm

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 7:28:58 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"Many countries in the world represent themselves as "Muslim Countries". How do the words from leaders of those countries compare? I know I don't have to quote the Iranian President for you. But what of Saudi Arabia or any of the other "Muslim" states? Where is the voice of any leader of any Muslim country at the UN standing up at the general assembly making the same or similar proclamation as has been quoted? "


http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

here you go Merc........i wonder, how many of these national councils condemnation of terrorism was reported in the US? In the wake of 9/11 would it have been considered somehow unamerican?

edited for unaccountable double pasting

< Message edited by philosophy -- 1/9/2007 7:36:00 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 9:17:11 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There has yet to be one Christian who's bombed a bus full of children and justified it by his/her religion.



True.  Christians prefer to target African American churches and abortion clinics, using their religious views to
justify it.

Sinergy


after the escapades of kermit roseveldt i dont think i would be to quick to go to the bank on that one.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/9/2007 11:03:13 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

There has yet to be one Christian who's bombed a bus full of children and justified it by his/her religion.



True.  Christians prefer to target African American churches and abortion clinics, using their religious views to
justify it.

Sinergy


after the escapades of kermit roseveldt i dont think i would be to quick to go to the bank on that one.



Because of Kermit Roosevelt, people do not bomb abortion clinics and black churches in the name of their religion?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/10/2007 8:14:17 AM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

Often I think like UtopianRanger, fuck it, let you all get drafted and killed and when the dust clears me and mine will inherit the Earth. I am almost past caring these days Caitlyn. I will just take my beloved child and make sure HE is ok, and let you kids work out your own issues with the right wing. After all, it is your future at stake.


Julia....

I musta missed this over the last few days. I hope you do not think that I want to see a draft because it will better a few of us. That's not my ploy.

I only want them to announce the news of a draft, because I know it is controversial enough that it will act as catalyst that formulates a rebellion.

My hope is that the many will one day get mad enough to take back their government from the few.

If they ever announce that there's actually going to be draft, I'll be one of the first ones in the streets to throw tomatoes and eggs at the politicians.

To paraphrase my friend Subfever '' Some of us look upon our leaders with the spirit of benevolence, and some of us don't ''








- R


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 1/10/2007 8:19:21 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/10/2007 8:48:31 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		And here I thought you were a Nihilist

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Pelosi warns Bush: Troop surge won't be accepted - 1/10/2007 8:55:22 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

And here I thought you were a Nihilist


Nah.....But I do think Nehilism can be used for the good against the neocons.  Don't you agree?




- R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 300
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