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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 4:25:57 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

However, I'm more against the suggestion that because this woman had this particular bad experience, that you are concluding that public play is unsafe, and without people who care or will help in a bad situation.  That's certainly not the case in my experience. 


That is not been my Daddy's experience either. I feel safe where ever we play because I know he will keep me that way. If the situation was exactly how described, I feel really sorry for that person, it had to be scary for her.

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 7:11:05 PM   
MissMean


Posts: 20
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Here is the deal, this whole discussion reminds me of incidents where someone is gang raped because they get drunk and passed out. Well it is her fault because she drank so much, and it is her fault because she did not know whom she was drinking with, and ... and .. and .. and...

That was My reaction to this whole event.

I do not buy that shit. Surely she could have made better decisions, but that in no way excuses the top for not making sure she was ok after making her into a pin cushion. It in no way excuses those around her if she was passed out on the floor and no one cared to even check if she was ok or needed medical attention. I would not leave anyone passed out on the floor... uncaring, unfeeling... and then blame them for it.

Again.. that was My reaction.

Call this submissive whatever you will, but that is not the issue in my mind. I guess I am from a small little town bordering Yosemite National Park... you just do not treat people like that no matter how "stupid" they are. How many hikers have been idiots and lost their way along the trails of the Sierras where I grew up? I lost count... we still sent search and rescue after them.

I am originally from Sacramento Valley.  More than once there were hikers in the great Sierra Mountains that never made it back.  In the past few years, it was the Mountain Lions eating them.    I would venture to say that a great many of U/us when new made mistakes. 
 
I was bothered, and still am bothered by it.   At what point does someone step in?    I've thought about this a lot.   
 
Would I step in when someone was passed out?  Yes, no matter if the DM was there or not. 
 
Would I step in if someone was staggering off to the bathroom?  No.. chances are, I'd grin at the Top for putting the sub in such delectible conditions.    
 
If I was the DM at the party, would I double check later on the condition of someone who passed out?  Chances are, I would, but then, maybe I wouldn't, if I KNEW both persons. 
 
If I was the DM and got information about a sub, would I speak to the sub as well? I'd like to think I would. 
 
Unfortuantly, the truth that bothers Me so much.. .FOR ME..(NO ONE ELSE).. for Me.. that would depend on who was the Dom gave Me that information.  What really bothers Me is that I can think of a half dozen Men and Women who are Tops that if they said a sub wasnt safe, chances are, I might not ask the new sub. 
 
After hearing about this event from two different people.. I am now questioning what I would do.  What if one of those people who I knew had changed and began behaving in a different manner than I expected?    I'm thinking that I nearly forgot something I learned a long time ago.. and thats to listen to both people. 
 
When I began playing, I had come from a cattle ranch and had used whips on horses to ride and cart horses.   Taking that step from animals to men was just an incredible rush for Me.   At past parties I have been to (circa 1982-1993), as well as doing public play demonstrations in those years, the DM's were there to make sure scenes go well and no one is hurt.   If the sub has made the effort to try to talk to the Dom and he refuses to talk and threatens to have this sub banned from further parties if she asks for help, do DM's currently ban subs simply because a Dom asks them to?  
 
I remember DM's wanting to know both sides of stories.. not just taking one persons information.    I also remember now why I never wanted to be a DM... :)
 
MissMean

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 7:16:08 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMean
I remember DM's wanting to know both sides of stories.. not just taking one persons information.    I also remember now why I never wanted to be a DM... :)

MissMean

This is why it is NOT a DMs job to be a personal referee or get into people's personal drama.  The DMs job is to help when there is a rule violation or physical problem, and to help prevent rule breaking and physical problems when possible.

That's it.

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 8:35:53 PM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
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quote:

If the sub has made the effort to try to talk to the Dom and he refuses to talk and threatens to have this sub banned from further parties if she asks for help, do DM's currently ban subs simply because a Dom asks them to?  


That's not the DM's job. 
 
Speaking for myself only, if some top came to me and told me not to invite sub A because he/she complained about their treatment, I'd be telling them to grow up and get a life, because no one dictates our guest list but us. 
 
The Kaptin and I don't go to public dungeons, because our personal dungeon has better equipment than most public dungeons we've been to, and it's a whole lot easier having about 20-30 of our closest friends come and play here than it is to drive a couple hours out of town to the nearest dungeon.  However, everyone who plays in our home knows two things:  1.)  That we expect everyone to behave as adults, which means we're not going to involve ourselves in someone else's drama.  What happens in the dungeon is sometimes painful, and sometimes emotionally difficult, and if you've got a problem with that, maybe you shouldn't be playing in the first place; and 2.)  There are no DMs in our dungeon.  If there is a problem, WE will address it if necessary.  In nearly 7 years of hosting parties, we've never had a problem.  There was a rumor started once, several years ago, but the person who started that one actually apologized to me for it about a year later.
 
I've been a DM, and it's rather boring.  That is, until some over-zealous DM butts into someone's scene where they should not have and all hell breaks loose because the sub is chewing them a new one for dragging her out of subspace.

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 8:41:10 PM   
Wildfleurs


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Status: offline 		I find it positively hilarious how the original poster is capable of ignoring every-single-persons posts except for the one person who agreed with her (and hasn't actually been to a play party).

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 9:01:13 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		DM's job is simple, enforce the house rules of safety and courtesy.
If the house rules are not being violated, then it's not in the DM's job discription to do anything.

Now unrelated to this is what is in the job discription of any ethical SM practitioner.
As an SM practitioner, with a sense of ethics that holds valuable a safe and healthy experience for new folks who still don't know what they are doing completely, I certainly might have made a little extra effort to check on this girl.
However lets look at the discription of what happened and take a little common sense to it as well.

The girl claims she "passed out" OK I gotta question exactly what they mean by passed out, did she lay down and fall asleep, or did she swoon away falling to the floor with a crash and a bump on the head?

If case 1 Who the heck is going to worry about a submissive who falls asleep after a scene, other than to ensure they are not molested while they sleep?
If case 2 then we have something to be worried about.
Problem is we don't know because the person in question is not here answering the questions and we were not there to gather unbiased information.

Part 2 "Some one comes to check you.   You think its the DM, but you cant tell because you are fairly new to the scene."
Since you were "out " do you have any idea how long you were out Was it 5 minutes 10 minutes 30 minutes 2 hours?
You think it was a DM? DM's are not well marked in your club as they are in any place I play that's for sure, we get these ugly vests or bright banners when we are oon duty so that even if you are the newbiest thing on the planet you know who they are.
If it was 5 minutes you were out seems to me they found you noticed you were out and did something to make sure you were ok (woke you up told you to get something to drink and eat which likely as not you forgot totally in your headspace. anything up to the 30 minute point unless you are being molested in your sleep being passed out is not a risky possition in fact likely as not it's exactly what your body needs to get back to where it belongs rest without stimuli that are already overloaded.
(assuming you have not lost copious ammounts of blood which obviously was not the case, and that you had not other health condition that would make being passed out a health risk indicater which obviously should have been discussed ie hypoglycemic diabetic etc)

The case puts all the blame for bad negotiation of what is considered "good aftercare" on the Top, but each case can just as easily be reversed.

The Top said well talken care of without explaining what that ment
The bottom didn't define what that ment to them either
While Some folks include days even weeks later for issues that might arrise out of an emotional scene, in most cases if you are in good enough shape to drive yourself home after the party your aftercare has been taken care of for the most part.


As for the rape comparisons I'm calling BS on those, the parties negotiated a scene and they did a poor job of it both of them. But they willingly negotiated and the bottom had the option of the safeword that they chose not to employ for their own reasons. There is no unwilling party here only a party who negotiated a poor deal and was not happy with the results.
She was not "physicly" harmed in the play,  her mental and emotional distress was not play related but aftercare related.

If you want an analogy she got on the pitch and she got slide takled when she didn't realize she was playing the adult FIFA game not the U13 rec league game. And she got mad because she didn't read the rules and assumed they were the same.


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 10:23:24 PM   
MissMean


Posts: 20
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The job of a DM is to make sure people obey the rules which are usually a refined version of don't leave body fluids for others to step in and don't kill anyone PERIOD.

I would agree that that is, by and far, the greater part of the role of a DM.  So are you saying that DM's dont listen to requests to ban people and that each party is a new venue and that the sub involved shouldnt be concerned at all? 


When people post "experiences" they slant them, conciiously or unconsciously.  After years of experience, plus the intuition that makes me a formidible dominant, I can read a great deal between the lines.  In this case I think there is more between the lines than in them.  In fact, this smells to me of something that happened to a "friend" as in the OP is about the OP.

You write "when people post...."etc.    When *I* post about something that I am trying to get a reading on, and especially when I find the behavior appalling, I tried very hard to remove gender or other things.   I missed the mark this time.  I'm not perfect.  I am very damn good, but I am not perfect, no one is. 
 
 Your "intuition" is a  total failure at this point, so "formidable" isnt working either.   There is nothing to "read between."   This is a situation that I had been talked to about by two different people.    What's ironic.. is I think you may know who I am, but you dont recognize this nickname, however, you may remember the MM monogram.  I am orginally from Sacramento before moving to Vegas.   This event did not happen to Me, so don't even go there. 
 
MissMean

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 10:32:42 PM   
MissMean


Posts: 20
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: Archer

But the difference julia is that the bottom consented to the scene.
She knew it was going to be needles (WTF a newbie is doing negotiating a needle scene right off the bat I don't know)

I agree... the newbie made a big mistake with jumping into needles after meeting with a Dom several times at a Dungeon... that was My first reaction!!

She walked away under her own power and returned even walked to the kitchen under her own power, Guessing from my own observations that means at least 10 minutes of being casually observed.

Good point

The big mistake here is the same one we all so often face especially here online, In the immortal ords of some people's hero
"That depends on what your definition of is is"

Good point.

If well taken care of means a phone call the next day then damnit say so during negotiations not the next day bitching about it online to your freinds who were not there to see for themselves.
If well taken care of means I'll make sure you can walk and talk on your own before I am through with the scene, then say so, so they don't expect that u're going to keep your attention on them for 6 hours post scene just to be sure they don't trip over their cool down blanket on the way to their car.

I agree totally.  One of the things that struck Me was how little negotation had happened between someone who was supposed to be a "known person" and the newbie.   I surmise that this happened because they had met and talked previously, but I dont know.

Why is it that folks can't seem to communicate actual ideas when they negotiate instead of spouting off meaningless drivel?????

In the years I was going to public play places and doing demonstrations for people that was the BIGGEST thing.. total communication.  It is SO vitally important, and I think, IMHO, that this where this started to go bad.. long before needles hit the skin.


"Well taken care of" Amazing that the slave/ submissive definitions are individual folks don't jump all over this idea instead. It sure as hell is more important. So long as negtiations were happening the onus or respopnsibility is on both parties to comunicate, and failure of that communication lies with both parties not one or the other.

I couldnt agree with you more.   What a fantastic post.  Thank you.  These were things that had been niggling at My mind, but didnt focus until you wrote this.  Nice job.
 
Miss Mean


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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 10:34:18 PM   
MissMean


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Joined: 10/18/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I went to my first club last month. I think maybe compared to most it is quite small, there were only around 30 people there. The dungeon masters were great in my opinion. I had a guided tour of the club with instructions on how to use certain pieces of equipment, he gave me the rules of the club and even took some pics of me chained to a wall as a souveneir of my first visit. I was told should i have any problems what so ever to find a DM and they would help me. He also said that he would be wandering around at all times so should i be unable for any reason to go find help someone would not be far away. Now admittedly i did not play in the club but i did observe said Dms wandering around the club keeping an eye on things and offering advice. They even sought me out at the end of the night to make sure i had enjoyed my visit etc.


This is the same sort of DM's I used to see years ago.  

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are Dom's really keeping ... - 1/8/2007 10:37:48 PM   
MissMean


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasDom

For my knowledge their are different groups.
Each with their own way of dealing with these things.
A group mentality as it were.

Some have a hard shelled demeanor and keep to the part.
If it were me I would have at least helped you up and talk to you for awhile.

Gotten to know you and maybe take some of your blood onto my hand, then suck it off my finger tips.

Depending if it was a party were every one is checked first and only allowed to come and play after screening.

Even then its not to safe, but hell i,m old fashioned.

Ask if you wanted a ride home.
If you were OK, then if you didn't and you were.
I,d help wipe you off ,and smack your ass telling you to get back to it.


OOOh.. good things to think about!   I dont know if this was a party that everyone was screened before being allowed to come play.  

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RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/8/2007 10:46:43 PM   
MissMean


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Joined: 10/18/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

I find it positively hilarious how the original poster is capable of ignoring every-single-persons posts except for the one person who agreed with her (and hasn't actually been to a play party).

C~



I am not ignoring posts, I didnt think every post required an answer as others have responded.  I have been agreeing with quite a few people in here and not agreeing with others.  I'm glad you are amused.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/9/2007 7:04:02 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		Coming from someone that was a DM while ago.  My role in this is watch the people playing.  It is common courtesy for people to approach a DM "before" a scene and let that DM know if they will be doing what is termed an edgier scene. 
It is not the DM's responsibility to guess.  If a DM see's that there may be something out of sorts, they most certainly can approach.....quietly, to the side of the Top, standing as to get their attention...........then ask.

There is no such thing as Safe anymore.........there IS Safer.  It is the 2 or more parties responsibility to find out what that is, what they can take, what they can not.  At any point if you pretty much agree to anything and you are afraid of letting that person down or making him look bad..........who's at fault here?  not the DM.

I have been sceneing for years.....i have been a DM for one also.  I have never had to stop a scene, i have had to ask questions of people playing.......it was appreciated.

DM's are not your patrol police.  We are there to help with the rules of the Dungeon.   I will have to say that if i ever saw a person "crash" to the ground........being a DM or not, i certainly would of helped, that's just being concerned about an individual.

I have not had near enough coffee yet.......i may expound on this later.

~smilezz~




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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/9/2007 8:20:45 AM   
LeatherBentOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMean
My question to this story is this....   What sort of DMs and what sort of care is going on in a Dungeon like this?  

Uh, a good one?

DMs are there to help prevent serious physical injury and deal with it when it happens. 

quote:

 Why didnt the person who saw the sub crash to the ground go get the DM?   Did that person think to go get the DM, or was that person the DM?     When something like this happens in a public-type play party, should everyone pretend that this didn't happen?   Because the Top is "well known" should all parties who witnessed this event keep their mouths shut?        Or have I just been out of the party scene for too long and THIS is the way parties are now held?   

This can unfortunately happen.  But trust me, there's a reason this top goes after the newbies- because everyone else by that point has made up their mind about him.

Sure, the top sucks.  But hello, so does this little bottom we're talking about.  She made SO many mistakes and bad choices herself which she needs to take responsibility for. 



I whole-heartedly agree here.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/9/2007 10:30:57 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		If they were experienced as their ego stated themselves to be to that sub then in my opinion they would have known how needle play can affect bottoms for a longtime afterwards, the body a buzz with endorphins and reactions unpredictable, and dealt with them afterwards accordingly REGARDLESS of how the scene ended.  The last time I played with needles it was a full three hours after the scene ended that the bottom could be left to their own devices, without I or her partner there to keep an eye on her...admittedly a full hour of that was just lying on the floor with her while she found the ceiling above her to be the most hillarious thing she'd seen in years.  To claim the top is a 'sadist' as a way of explaination is a copout of the responsibility the top has to the events that happened after they let the sub wander off to the bathroom alone.  The communication after the fact kind of smacks of the top or the top's ex realising full well the top in this instance farked up. 
 
Now to your question "What sort of DMs and what sort of care is going on in a Dungeon like this?" ... only the dungeon party participants can answer that.  Having run a BDSM club and numerous parties during my time with the club all I can say is a club is a club is a club ...many people will happily run around with the 'DM' armband while few will actually have the balls to act on the authority that armband/label gives them and people will be afraid to 'rock the boat' for fear of isolation.  I think in this instance the sub should find out if she has any redress through the club or persons that ran this particular party and that this top and his ex be spoken too.  That if they are going to be doing needle play with someone then they are responsible for that person until that person feels responsbile enough for themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/9/2007 10:38:37 AM   
Jasmyn


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From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

This can unfortunately happen.  But trust me, there's a reason this top goes after the newbies- because everyone else by that point has made up their mind about him.

Sure, the top sucks.  But hello, so does this little bottom we're talking about.  She made SO many mistakes and bad choices herself which she needs to take responsibility for. 

 
LA I think here you raise a disturbing issue, and unfortunately an all to common one of community play spaces. 
 
quote:

because everyone else by that point has made up their mind about him.
 
Infact this is a thread in itself... I'll post in general



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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/9/2007 11:29:20 AM   
valeca


Posts: 403
Joined: 1/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMean


 
Would I step in when someone was passed out?  Yes, no matter if the DM was there or not. 
 



Just a little side trip here. 

This could turn out badly for you if you don't know the person(s) involved.  I'd be right pissed if someone suddenly took it upon themselves to 'step in' without being invited to do so--either by myself or by my Master (His ass chewing would be mucho worse than mine, come to think of it).  It's intrusive, and could be viewed as pushing yourself into someone else's space .  I think a better way to approach that sort of situation would be to bring it to the attention of those around you/the person who's passed out.  Hopefully (as in my case) someone will be there to tell you the situation is in hand, but the concern is appreciated, nonetheless.  If no one appears to know anything about it, then it'd be appropriate/appreciated to step in.  'Passing out' isn't all that uncommon, and in some cases, it's the desired effect.

Coles Notes version: 

1.  If you don't know the individuals involved, or the specifics of the scene, it's wise to stay out unless you've been invited in. 

2.  Ask before React.

Edited for too many brackets...eesh


< Message edited by valeca -- 1/9/2007 12:17:41 PM >

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(in reply to MissMean)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/9/2007 2:24:40 PM   
MagiksSlave


Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline 		Ok I see how both sides handled the scene poorly but no where do I see this beeing the foult of the DM.

DM isnt responsable for indavidual relationships

Magik's slave

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(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/9/2007 6:17:06 PM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: onestandingstill

Hell if I left my apt unlocked and my door standing wide open then someone or a group of guys came in and raped me I would indeed carry some of the weight of responsibility in that wouldn't I?


No, you would not be responsible. What if they kicked in the door and did it? Does that mitagate it? In this fictional story, as an example as good as any, TY, they entered your private domain and committed a crime.

What if a girl wears a short skirt? Is she "asking for it"? What about a boy?
Jeeez. What century are we in?

This is so high school. If a new chick moves to town and a big, bully jerk asks here out and violates her - is this the same thing? "She should have known better"? Would people support that?

I personally would not "play" hardcore with a stranger. I want to know THE PERSON. I am not judging anyone, just I enjoy the specialness of an individual - not an anonymous, fantasy figure. To each their own.    

I don't have a lot of public play experience. The owner of the (wow, is it the last public dungeon in NY?) really keeps a keen eye on his property, business and reputation.

BTW, I have had a lot worse shit happen to me in the "vanilla" world than in "kink".

I never believed that "the community" was a safe haven from creeps. Some say meet only those who have community references. Plueeze.

Yes, I do think the girl was foolish to allow a stranger to get so heavy with her. Naive. Yet - I also would hope it would benefit a group if a person was well known to cause trouble and (non consensual) harm in any way - they should be excluded from events. No one is safe. Bystanders included. A DM, especially the host or owner of a place could be held liable if someone died in the joint. This is the same as any nightclub wow, even supermarket!
That DM is not responsible for "aftercare" though. He is more of a bouncer than a baby sitter.

This place is addicting. Love it.... and also get exasperated.
Be well all.  

*Sorry to pick your post as an example, no offense intended. Sure we are all responsible for ourselves, I get it.

(in reply to onestandingstill)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/9/2007 10:03:03 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

So are you saying that DM's dont listen to requests to ban people and that each party is a new venue and that the sub involved shouldnt be concerned at all? 


I have to wonder how many parties you have been to, at most events DMs are lowly volunteers unrelated to whomever is hosting the event.  In addition, this scene may not have gone well but I see nothing egregious here.  The bottom was clueless and the Top a bit casual but nothing worth banning someone over.  I would counsel both to get their shit together but nothing more.

In addition, it has been my experience that the people who come screaming for people to be banned ARE the problem.  My rule has always been if the same person complains about lots of people, THEY are the problem.  If lots of people compain about the SAME person, that person has to go if they don't shape up.  The only person I have ever banned was a submissive who always got her limits violated no matter who she played with, lots of drama and things got much better after she was banned.  Sad thing is I actually liked her.


(in reply to MissMean)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Safe sane and consensual? Are DM's really keeping p... - 1/10/2007 5:31:42 AM   
ladyJayne


Posts: 5
Joined: 9/26/2006
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMean
  My questions are about the actions of the DM.    When a DM or someone at a party sees someone literally crash to the floor do they say anything?  Does anyone, other than the Top, who is not in the room when the sub falls, check on this person? 
 
When is it "Ok" for one person to threaten another (If you talk about this, I will tell people not to have you come to a party)?  When did this action become acceptable behavior of guests to a DM's dungeon?  Do DM's now ignore concerns and fears of newbies if they have a "well known" Top telling them that the newbie is wrong?  


I am not going to answer the points that Archer has already made about a DM's responcibility during the scene... but as a DM in the UK I thought i would throw my perspective on the 'follow on'

Of course if a submissive had fallen (or anyone for that matter) I would check them, administer first aid if need be and keep a close eye, unfortunatly DM's aren't there to provide aftercare, snuggles and security, we generally have too much on our hands watching play to ensure that people are safe... but a few mins to find a comfy seat and a blanket won't do too much harm (especially if there is another DM to hand)

As for DM's tolerating lies and threatening behaviour, well I think in the UK it must be different, in general we have nothing to do with the running of the club, and have no place (and generally no desire) getting invovled in 'he said, she said' arguments, it's our job to set up the kit, keep it safe and take it down... it's in our helpful human nature to help those we see in need, but it's not part of our remit per se.

There are several people that I would gladly never speak to, or see in a dungeon ever again, but unless they actually break the rules of the dungeon there is nothing I can do about it, and while my heart goes out to this girl, I also want to take her, shake her and sledgehammer some sense into her...

since when did being submissive (and this is speaking as a switch, but one who is in a 24/7 relationship as a submissive) mean that you ost all responsibility for your own actions and safety...

(in reply to MissMean)
Profile   Post #: 60
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