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The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 5:21:05 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		When I think of forced play, I think of getting someone to overcome their boundaries, to get them to do something that they are too afraid to do by leveraging my power as a dominant over them. I will only do forced play on soft limits when I feel that trust has been established and I will do it on my terms.

However, once my submissive has developed a liking for said forced activity, it no longer remains a forced activity.

After having sodomised a sub with a strap-on and helping him overcome the fear of anal penetration and he goes and buys me a bigger dick for my strap-on and show up on my doorstep with a stupid grin on his face, it is no longer forced sodomy! (Not to be confused with forced homosexuality as I don’t automatically turn into a man when I sodomize my boys!)

By the same token, when a man emails me and attaches a pic of himself wearing a frilly dress and stocking and tells me he wants me to force feminize him, it perplexes me. What bit of the feminisation process will I be forcing?

Recently a bunch of forced threads have been started in Ask a Mistress.
- enforced feminization
- forced feminization (which was started parallel to enforced feminization)
- forced bi (and to understand that one, I’d have to understand what "bisexual sex" was)
- forced masculinity (my personal favourite which I started as a play on words as every other thread seemed to start with "forced")

Since I mainly hang out there and here, I’m not sure if they are happening elsewhere. Are their threads on forced submission? forced slavery? forced dominance? forced housework? ;)

Maybe it’s just me. Maybe la petite française doesn’t get the meaning of the word forced ;)

Opinions? Thoughts?

- LA

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 5:24:25 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		I'm still a big fan of "forced check cashing."

~stef

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 5:36:06 PM   
sting516


Posts: 505
Joined: 9/4/2004
From: long island, ny
Status: offline 		While i agree...very little play is actually forced...that's the name these activities were given...so often it seems we get so wrapped up in what we call something that we almost forget it's supposed to be fun on some level...

i think of these scenes as forced as i have no desire to do it outside of the context of the Domme's true desire for it...without that, none of this, whether it be forced feminization, or forced bi, or hell, even forced masculinity, would do anything for me.

As always, Your mileage may vary.


sting

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 5:37:39 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
When I think of forced play, I think of getting someone to overcome their boundaries,
I will only do forced play on soft limits when I feel that trust has been established and I will do it on my terms.

By the same token, when a man emails me and attaches a pic of himself wearing a frilly dress and stocking and tells me he wants me to force feminize him, it perplexes me. What bit of the feminisation process will I be forcing?
Maybe it’s just me. Maybe la petite française doesn’t get the meaning of the word forced ;)

Opinions? Thoughts? - LA

I think the same way you do, it's more about expanding comfort zones on my terms...
La Non Petite Brown Lady from RI doesn't get it either, so I'll be following with you and learning if it's okay with you. M

P.S. Hey Stef
I'm with you on the forced check cashing too, but even my topping from bottom subs won't top me that way (you know forcing their money on me, lol) M


< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 2/25/2005 5:40:17 PM >

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 5:46:48 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516
While i agree...very little play is actually forced...that's the name these activities were given...


Well then it is simply a wrongly named activity, which is the point of my post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516
i think of these scenes as forced as i have no desire to do it outside of the context of the Domme's true desire for it...without that, none of this, whether it be forced feminization, or forced bi, or hell, even forced masculinity, would do anything for me.


Alright. I'll give you that sting. I can sort of wrap my head around the way you state that. The way I see it, you are still working out your inhibitions around it and therefore it is still forced play. But it becomes less and less forced as you thrive on it more and more. No?

However, when a boy volunteers wants to do activity X and then asks me to force him do it, that is when I get perplexed.

- LA

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 5:52:54 PM   
sting516


Posts: 505
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From: long island, ny
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

But it becomes less and less forced as you thrive on it more and more. No?

However, when a boy volunteers wants to do activity X and then asks me to force him do it, that is when I get perplexed.

- LA


i can understand how that becomes a bit confusing...it seems just the opposite...i've often told people i'm open to certain activities...and always left it up to them how to proceed...after all...topping from the bottom is something that leaves me cold...and if i feel i'm directing where the scene is going, it's not as exciting for me.

Maybe a better term for this might be directed bisexuality/feminization?


sting

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:00:04 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516
Maybe a better term for this might be directed bisexuality/feminization?


How bout just good old fashioned Domination?

- LA


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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:00:58 PM   
sting516


Posts: 505
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From: long island, ny
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: sting516
Maybe a better term for this might be directed bisexuality/feminization?


How bout just good old fashioned Domination?

- LA


Not a darn thing wrong with that!


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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:09:45 PM   
knkywch


Posts: 53
Joined: 7/23/2004
From: Cal-iFORN-eye-yay
Status: offline 		Hmm, I think "forced" in this context might deal more with an internal conflict for the bottom rather than an overt physical force. Force to me has many aspects and components. Force doesn't necessarily require overt resistance, but resistance can be fun (whether that is a physical struggle or protestations or hesitancy and discomfort or...).

I am aware of different manifestations of "force". For instance, there is brute force and compelling, coersive, perhaps fear-based (mostly verbal/mental) force. Then, there is force of suggestion (hypnosis or verbal manipulation) and force of seduction... of my favorites.

So, when you "force" a bottom to deal with sodomization, what kind of force are you using? Physical? Verbal? Combination? Is your bottom struggling the whole time and you must have assistance to hold him/her down? Or is it force by choice... sort of "if you don't do 'X', then you will have to leave and I won't play with you anymore"?

I like to play at being forced. It's scary and exciting... and I want to do it again... and I don't. It's still scary and exciting... but interestingly, that's a draw for me. There is something about the Other really WANTING me to experience something that might be painful or scary or humiliating for me, but ALSO connected with pleasure -- sexual or pleasure of serving or both. For me, there is a difference in being forced to do something that is clearly outside of my boundaries (for instance, scat play) and being forced to somehow "screw up" so that I'd be punished by standing naked or somehow exposed in a corner.

In the first scenario, I would fight and get pissed off and call a safe word if someone tried to force me to eat shit while I was in bondage for instance. There would be no arousal for me, only disgust and anger because I know what is in fecal matter... I wouldn't care if it pleasured the Other and I would NOT want to repeat the incident.

In the second scenario, I would resist messing up to avoid punishment, but on some level feel pleasure and excitement knowing that my top was enjoying the whole rock-and-a-hard-place routine and setting me up for punishment. It'd be a mix for me of embarrassment, shame, and arousal and pleasure. I'd want to do everything I could to get out of the catch-22 though. AND, interestingly, I might try to screw up at another time to get what I can only describe as mixed attention -- it is squirmy and scares me and STILL gets me worked up.

Both scenarios involve "force" and one is clearly abusive while the other is in the realm of BDSM. As a top, I wouldn't want to "force" my bottom to do anything s/he completely objects to. I am looking for that pain/pleasure, discomfort/arousal mix where force doesn't become abusive but adds to the internal conflict and confusion of "don't want/want" so that all parties come out of the experience hot and bothered, excited, and wanting more the next time.

Another couple of things come to mind along this vein...

I remember being a little kid and engaging in "chase and capture" or "scare and chase" games with other kids and adults. Oh my goodness, the adrenaline rush of fear... and excitement! In fact, I play this with little kids now. I notice that when I stop... they pester me to "do it again"! They WANT to be scared and chased... and maybe caught and tickled or hugged or... somehow consensually, safely (and in this case, nonsexually) touched.

And what about scary movies and haunted houses? Sometimes, folks "force" me to go. But I KNOW I'll get scared when the fake Texas Chainsaw Massacre scene starts up and the guy with the fake chainsaw comes roaring out of some side door...

I propose that within the BDSM context, "force" must be about a mixture of "no" and "yes" and that the "yes" part can be pretty compelling (compelling enough for that bottom to show up with a massive smile and bigger dildo) but that if it is "forced" then there is still a frightened, squirmy, embarrassed, or uncomfortable "no" that provides either overt or internal resistance.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
kw

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:10:30 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think there definitely is such a thing as "forced housework" but "forceplay" to me implies some physical violence/forcing with it. Something doesn't HAVE to be physically forced in order to be a forced act.

For me something can definitely be forced even if I like/want it. It can be very hot for me to be with someone and I say "Im going to try my hardest NOT to have this happen" and them to say "Im going to try my hardest to make SURE this happens" and we go all out- including physically going at eachother. The primality of the forcing itself is the goal, the victor simply being inevitable.

I just have to ask permission before I can engage in fighting, but it absolutely can be forced even if you like it and want it.

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:33:06 PM   
mantis65


Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		LadyAngelika
Do you thing the ‘Forced” idea is a male sub thing?
Maybe the fear of some men to submit? The sub sort of thinking “this turns me on real bad but its not right unless I am forced against my will to do it”.
Like a fear of submission ? because to do otherwise would make them unmanly?
A man can still submit to things that don’t turn him on..like your leather boy sodomy it wouldn’t do anything for me sexually (outside of the humiliation) but it would be pleasurable to the Domme. what makes the Domme happy matters to me ..

I think its when something does turn a guy on but he thinks is wrong to be exited by it he will want to think of it as forced.
I’m thinking the “forced” part is like a Psychological barrier in some male subs
i dont know how most female subs view the forced idea

I don’t know could be talking out my butt here …

mantis

Forgive my spelling having bad time with Dyslexia tonight

< Message edited by mantis65 -- 2/25/2005 6:51:33 PM >

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:44:37 PM   
mantis65


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quote:

I like to play at being forced. It's scary and exciting... and I want to do it again... and I don't. It's still scary and exciting... but interestingly, that's a draw for me.


i love the fear and excitement mixture also.
mantis

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:47:30 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: knkywch

Hmm, I think "forced" in this context might deal more with an internal conflict for the bottom rather than an overt physical force. Force to me has many aspects and components. Force doesn't necessarily require overt resistance, but resistance can be fun (whether that is a physical struggle or protestations or hesitancy and discomfort or...).

[Then a little later on in your post… ]

I would resist messing up to avoid punishment, but on some level feel pleasure and excitement knowing that my top was enjoying the whole rock-and-a-hard-place routine and setting me up for punishment. It'd be a mix for me of embarrassment, shame, and arousal and pleasure. I'd want to do everything I could to get out of the catch-22 though. AND, interestingly, I might try to screw up at another time to get what I can only describe as mixed attention -- it is squirmy and scares me and STILL gets me worked up.


That is what I consider to be predicament bondage which does have some elements of force in that it forces the submissive to make a choice as they are conflicted by their desires.

quote:

I am aware of different manifestations of "force". For instance, there is brute force and compelling, coersive, perhaps fear-based (mostly verbal/mental) force. Then, there is force of suggestion (hypnosis or verbal manipulation) and force of seduction... of my favorites.

So, when you "force" a bottom to deal with sodomization, what kind of force are you using? Physical? Verbal? Combination? Is your bottom struggling the whole time and you must have assistance to hold him/her down? Or is it force by choice... sort of "if you don't do 'X', then you will have to leave and I won't play with you anymore"?


I don’t think I would ever threaten not to play with someone anymore as I don’t make empty threats. Usually I prefer verbal forced. Physical forced might be fun though I know that with most of my boys, they are physically stronger then me so “forcing” them physically would be quite the challenge. I believe the way I force is mentally.

quote:


I remember being a little kid and engaging in "chase and capture" or "scare and chase" games with other kids and adults. Oh my goodness, the adrenaline rush of fear... and excitement! In fact, I play this with little kids now. I notice that when I stop... they pester me to "do it again"! They WANT to be scared and chased... and maybe caught and tickled or hugged or... somehow consensually, safely (and in this case, nonsexually) touched.

And what about scary movies and haunted houses? Sometimes, folks "force" me to go. But I KNOW I'll get scared when the fake Texas Chainsaw Massacre scene starts up and the guy with the fake chainsaw comes roaring out of some side door...


Oh! the thrill of edge play! I guess forced play can fall into edge play, yes.

quote:



I propose that within the BDSM context, "force" must be about a mixture of "no" and "yes" and that the "yes" part can be pretty compelling (compelling enough for that bottom to show up with a massive smile and bigger dildo) but that if it is "forced" then there is still a frightened, squirmy, embarrassed, or uncomfortable "no" that provides either overt or internal resistance

Hope this helps.

Peace,
kw

It does. I guess what perplexes me is where the line of “force” stops and the line of “but I really want this” starts. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with either attitude… I’m simply trying to deconstruct it all.

Thank you for your contribution, kw. It was very much appreciated.

- LA

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:51:35 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

I think there definitely is such a thing as "forced housework" but "forceplay" to me implies some physical violence/forcing with it. Something doesn't HAVE to be physically forced in order to be a forced act.


Or mental?

quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
For me something can definitely be forced even if I like/want it. It can be very hot for me to be with someone and I say "Im going to try my hardest NOT to have this happen" and them to say "Im going to try my hardest to make SURE this happens" and we go all out- including physically going at eachother. The primality of the forcing itself is the goal, the victor simply being inevitable.

I just have to ask permission before I can engage in fighting, but it absolutely can be forced even if you like it and want it.


Ok, so this is "forced" within the context of resistance play?

- LA


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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 6:57:04 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mantis65

LadyAngelika
Do you thing the ‘Forced” idea is a male sub thing?
Maybe the fear of some men to submit? The sub sort of thinking “this turns me on real bad but its not right unless I am forced against my will to do it”.
Like a fear of submission ? because to do otherwise would make them unmanly?
...
I think its when something does turn a guy on but he thinks is wrong to be exited by it he will want to think of it as forced.
I’m thinking the “forced” part is like a Psychological barrier in some male subs
i dont know how most female subs view the forced idea


Ok. That makes sense. It's still in the overcoming stage. I guess I have to realise that some never get out of the overcoming stage even if they show signs of loving it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mantis65
I don’t know could be talking out my butt here …
mantis

Ok. Now I'm picturing you as the man who played the "talking asshole" in Pink Flamingos!

- LA

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 7:01:06 PM   
mantis65


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quote:

Ok. Now I'm picturing you as the man who played the "talking asshole" in Pink Flamingos!


hehe i love john waters movies..but i have to "force" my friends to watch them, theres a talking asshole in naked lunch also.

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 7:02:43 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantis65

quote:

Ok. Now I'm picturing you as the man who played the "talking asshole" in Pink Flamingos!


hehe i love john waters movies..but i have to "force" my friends to watch them, theres a talking asshole in naked lunch also.


That's because my man Cronenberg has a sick & twisted mind!!

- LA


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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 7:08:54 PM   
mantis65


Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		Cronenberg is for real my favorite director. i love shivers and crash..
Which makes me think about myself I tend to like to explore my own fear of things.

knkywch wrote
quote:

And what about scary movies and haunted houses? Sometimes, folks "force" me to go. But I KNOW I'll get scared when the fake Texas Chainsaw Massacre scene starts up and the guy with the fake chainsaw comes roaring out of some side door...


so how much of this forced idea is really about fear? scary but we are still drawen into it?
mantis

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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 7:17:11 PM   
Moleculor


Posts: 189
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

By the same token, when a man emails me and attaches a pic of himself wearing a frilly dress and stocking and tells me he wants me to force feminize him, it perplexes me. What bit of the feminisation process will I be forcing?


Perhaps the part with the scapel?


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RE: The premise of forced play - 2/25/2005 7:20:17 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantis65

Cronenberg is for real my favorite director. i love shivers and crash..
Which makes me think about myself I tend to like to explore my own fear of things.

knkywch wrote
quote:

And what about scary movies and haunted houses? Sometimes, folks "force" me to go. But I KNOW I'll get scared when the fake Texas Chainsaw Massacre scene starts up and the guy with the fake chainsaw comes roaring out of some side door...


so how much of this forced idea is really about fear? scary but we are still drawen into it?
mantis


A lot of people, even the non-kinky people, like to put themselves in situations where they will be afraid, forcing themselves to face their fears.

A funny story comes to mind. I was watching Midori do an intricate predicament bondage scenario with a boy. She put red lipstick on his lips, then a wooden spoon between his teeth (with the explicit instructions that she didn't want to see a trace of lipstick on the wooden spoon) and then put a raw egg in the spoon. The boy was struggling to keep the spoon level so that the egg wouldn't topple out. Then, crazy woman that she is, Midori decided to pull up a chair and sit ever so coyly under the wobbly egg & spoon wearing a Chinese silk brocade dress. She looked up at the boy and advised him that if the egg fell, he'd be ruining her dress. She then looked at us and said "Edge play for Dommes, folks". Ha!

- LA

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