RE: Anger and S/m Play

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RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/11/2007 2:03:09 PM

crouchingtigress

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quote:

although I'm still interested to hear from those who have something thoughtful to say about alternative points of view.

Noah what perspective do you feel has not been covered? I have several perspectives that have not been covered but i think most here would find them pretty out there...

I was going to post the results of some studies on anger and the loss of your ability to hear, to comprehend, and to make sound decisions.

I found the part about hearing esp fascinating because it showed conclusively that a persons ability to hear was directly proportionate to the decibel and intensity of person they were listening to...

I also was going to mention that anger is a facade emotion and not its own emotion, it is instead a front for confusion, sadness, fear or pain. So to me releasing anger into a partner to feel better about ones self is not really very helpful it is only the illusion of helpful.

I also belive that anger destroys ones peace and presence of mind....and to me that goes to the core of self mastery....and with out self mastery there is no mastery.

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RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/16/2007 2:36:06 AM

Tahna

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Noah what perspective do you feel has not been covered? I have several perspectives that have not been covered but i think most here would find them pretty out there...

I don't.

I was going to post the results of some studies on anger and the loss of your ability to hear, to comprehend, and to make sound decisions.

Speaking from the perspective of someone interested in this type of interaction, and an empiricist, responsible consumer, etc., I would be interested in links to these studies.

I believe that it is important for a bottom to know what physiological, psychological and emotional responses to expect, plan and develop processing/coping skills for.

Links please.

I also was going to mention that anger is a facade emotion and not its own emotion, it is instead a front for confusion, sadness, fear or pain. So to me releasing anger into a partner to feel better about ones self is not really very helpful it is only the illusion of helpful.

I disagree. If anger is a front emotion, which I happen to agree with btw, then is it logical to ask if it can also be a "blocking" emotion?

I'm quite familiar with the theory that anger is a power emotion, easier to express than the less powerful (supposedly) emotions of sadness etc.. But what if one has been trained to stuff rather than express, or turned feelings of anger in on self? Let's say, from an earlier time in their life, when to express them was unacceptable or not safe? What if that is the pattern that developed? And that, as an adult, "stuffing" actually prevented growth?

Is it possible that "controlling rage" is like blocking energy paths? And that by doing so their own spiritual, emotional, development is stunted or not fully developed?

Seems very limiting, to me.

I also belive that anger destroys ones peace and presence of mind....and to me that goes to the core of self mastery....and with out self mastery there is no mastery.

And without knowing what it feels like to experience "it", one cannot learn how to manage or master "it".

I think that what Archer and Elegant are saying is that this is a deeply loving (verb, not noun) and intimate exploration. One that requires clarity of intent, maturity and courage.

Personally, I find it fascinating.

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RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/16/2007 6:30:34 AM

dawntreader

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i am a spiritualist and deal with my anger totally out of the S&M realm. However, i did want to say what a fascinating read this thread has been.
i could actually see valid points made on all sides...

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RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/21/2007 3:17:50 PM

NJKinksters

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My Top and I do " rageplay" where he goes out of his way to piss me off. I find it very cathartic. For ME, and that is the only position I can speak from ever, my own, I have a very hard time being angry on my own behalf. I can show him any aspect of self readily except my anger. My own inability to express anger in a healthy way has given me a perspective that anger is ugly, it is the part of myself that I am most ashamed of. It is the part that I keep close and hidden. The first time we played like that, it took me by surprise that I COULD show him that, it was the last step into the total zone trust for me. It showed me he truly was accepting of all pieces of who I was, that I could genuinely BE me, and he would still be there afterwards. It is still a form of " play" that I find difficult, years of self imposed rigid judgement of the self do not fly out the door after a few scenes ( wouldn'tt THAT be great eh?), but each time we do it, I trust him more deeply and find myself accepting and appreciating who I am a little more. And that;s a good thing:)

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RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/21/2007 9:04:14 PM

Noah

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quote:

Noah what perspective do you feel has not been covered? I have several perspectives that have not been covered but i think most here would find them pretty out there...

In asking for other points of view I didn't mean to suggest that I have a list I'm making checkmarks on.

I like "out there." Go.

quote:

I was going to post the results of some studies on anger and the loss of your ability to hear, to comprehend, and to make sound decisions.

I found the part about hearing esp fascinating because it showed conclusively that a persons ability to hear was directly proportionate to the decibel and intensity of person they were listening to...

This strikes me as plainly intuitive. A direct proportion between volume and ability to hear the sound. Extremely quiet sounds are difficult to hear, no?

Can you explain what was fascinating about this?

quote:

I also was going to mention that anger is a facade emotion and not its own emotion, it is instead a front for confusion, sadness, fear or pain. So to me releasing anger into a partner to feel better about ones self is not really very helpful it is only the illusion of helpful.

"Facade Emotion" This must be the name of a category in someone or other's theoretical taxonomy of emotions. I don't remember running into it with any of the theorists I studied about, and frankly it has the ring of some new-agey self-helpy talk, and a slippery-slimey one at that. "Oh, your emotion isn't a REAL emotion, it is just a "facade" emotion. Buy my audio-tape series Sorting Real From Not Real Emotions" and you too can make big money in real estate."

There are an infinite number of ways to understand any given thing. Maybe this one has been useful for you.

Why isn't sadness a facade for fear? Fear a facade for regret? Ennui a facade for meloncholy? On what basis is one given ontic priority to the other, and categorically so, without room for exception? If it helpful in some ways or instances to prioritize this way in one's theoretical constructs, might not there be ways and times when the polarity might be usefully reversed?

I'm just not sure that laminating extra layers of theory over something immediately available to us in common experience is likely to be the most fruitful course. Especially when the extra layers of theory are required to obliterate the color and texture of life experience, to make the tapestry of life fit into the black and white cartoon concept of the theory.

quote:

I also belive that anger destroys ones peace and presence of mind....

Destroy is quite a word. Insofar as one is not peaceful while one is angry your claim is true. But this is only a tautological truth. That is to say that its truth value arises from the meanings of the words in question rather than from correspondence to any state of affairs in the world outside of those definitions.

When you're angry you're not peaceful. When you're peaceful you're not angry. Trivially true, but I don't see any destruction going on insofar as that, unless "destroy" is a synonym for "temporarily displace".

Exuberance destroys reticence, in that sense--and vice versa. So? Anger destroys peace and peace destroys anger. So? A species just like us except for the inability to experience anger would be an interesting non-human species, in my view, except that their literature, art, and music would lack any and all of the things which are embodied in ours as a result of the existence of that human emotion you deride as secondary. So maybe after all they would not be an interesting species, except in the way that mannequins are interesting facsimilies of fully human beings.

Anger is a bona fide human experience, as it seems to me. Can it arise from fear or sadness? I wouldn't dispute that claim. Is it in every case thus and therefore purely derivative and ontically inferior?

That someone can concoct a theory which calls anger secondary to fear is no more significant than that someone can concoct a theory which calls gays secondary to straights or women secondary to men.

As for anger destroying presence of mind, it can. And I believe that this can be a wonderful thing, especially for people sleepwalking through decades of their life in a cloud of peace of mind bought at WalMart or spoon-fed to them. Anger can also be a powerful focusing agent. I suspect that some people seldom experience much presence of mind except when angry.

quote:

and to me that goes to the core of self mastery....and with out self mastery there is no mastery.

Oh come on, CT. We expect vast amounts of this kind of drivel, but not from the likes of you. You've never seen a poorly parented three-year-old "Master" his mother and father? What self-mastery on the child's part is this based on? You've never see an addict master her friends, family, lover, or case-worker? Is this addict, in your view, the great exemplar of self-mastery?

You've never seen a wildly insecure (and likely diagnosable on several other bases) person master a bunch of people in an office or a precinct or a drum corps?

I wish we could put this idiotic notion to bed once and for all. It is utter bullshit that there is no mastery without self-mastery. Utter bullshit. These boards are just filled to bursting with accounts of people who have submitted to (= been mastered by)other people who lacked self-mastery in crucial ways.

To master others is a seductive prospect for people who might well benefit from an increase in self-mastery but who for some reasons or others focus their mastery efforts outward rather than inward. In fact this is a topic worth a good deal of discussion which could never even be raised under the paradigm you promote, since under your paradigm this common-as-dirt phenomenon is ruled impossible.

This absolutist, black and white smile=good frown=bad approach to life may be helpful in the way that stick figures of people might be helpful in some sort of diagram, but if you're walking around thinking that your stick-figure psychology is capturing and portraying the human experience, well, go right ahead and think so.

I find color, dimension, and ambiguity in the world. Any picture of it which lacks something isomorphic with each of those is to that extent not representative

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RE: Anger and S/m Play - 1/21/2007 9:35:00 PM

ownedgirlie

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~ Fast Reply, and coming to this thread late ~

Anger was always an emotion that scared me, having grown up in a volatile environment with an out of control parent. When my Master is angry, I know he is still very much in control, but when he raises his voice in anger, whether it is at me or at someone/something else I get very quiet. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it is difficult for me. Even if he is just yelling at his computer.

He has punished me in anger. This does not mean he uncontrollably beats the shit out of me. Typically what makes him angry is his need to punish me in the first place, as he doesn't like to do that (it is a very rare occurance anymore). So, odds are, if he's punishing me, he's at least irritated about it. But his punishments when angry are no different when not angry, other than his tongue is sharp as can be. Typically, because of our distance, he has had some time to cool down by the time I've arrive to receive what I must from him.

As for him releasing frustrations out on me, again for us that doesn't mean he had a bad day at work and wants to beat the crap out of me (it could, but so far it never has). It might mean he is pissed off or frustrated, and he would like nothing more than to relax by using his favorite flogger or belt on his slave, and watching her get off for him. He might push me extra hard those days, but if that helps to release his tension, lucky me to be the one he turns to.

I believe Elegant mentioned the slave/submissive's anger. This was interesting for me because there was a time when my Master would bring me to a place inside myself (by way of working me to subspace) and this rage-filled beast would come out. I remember it scaring the hell out of me at first. I started thrashing and snarling and growling and clawing, filled with rage and hate and everything negative. It ended up being a cathartic way of releasing emotions I had buried and stored in me all my life. I haven't gone to that place in a very long time; I suspect because that level of anger is gone.

I think many folks tend to think "anger" and automatically link that to out of control rages. I know I did, because as a child the two were synonymous. But there are so many ways to express anger other than dysfunctionally.

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