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Sinergy -> RE: There is No God by Penn Jillette (1/12/2007 6:06:13 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
Things that are illogical and irrational that must be abolished!!!
We must only believe in the provable.
Art is a illogical, irrational waste. Anyone that believe otherwise is wrong, no one can prove their is any value in any art, or it means anything. It's just irrational emotional garbage. (Same as most are saying about God).
Entertainment is a illogical irrational waste of time. No provable benefit can be shown.
Sports, complete waste of time, it is just a huge pissing contest, and provides nothing of value that couldn't be gained in a more efficient manner elsewhere.
Dating, boy this is irrational. People rationally should be paired to produce the best offspring, not pander to these illogical urges and impulses.
Casual Sex, illogical irrational behaviour that increases risk of disease, or in the case of birth control defeats the only logical reason for sex which is producing offspring.
Wealth ownership, this is illogical, one only needs basics necessities to survive and reproduce.
Medical care, it is illogical to sustain the ill, or defective.
Universal Education, this is illogical, as some jobs do not require a high degree of education or any education in some instances.
Vacations, this is illogical, this activity puts undue stress on non-renewable resources and wastes time that could be used doing logical activities.
On and On and On......
Now, I don't really believe those things are bad, or even illogical. They would be from a purely scientific view that disgards innate human traits. This is what to a large degree the atheists are asking of the religious. BE PURELY LOGICAL, but the atheists aren't even logical using purely scientific view of humans as they are asking the religious to be. Using the standard of proof to deem what one can or should believe in is hyprocrisy at its highest form because none of us will even come close to passing that standard.
Here try making a list of what is important without introducing a human assumption for "proving" it actually is important or true. It really isn't possible, because we made it all up from top to bottom.
Example list:
Freedom of Expression(no real evidence this is important)
Property Rights(completely human concept, their is no such provable thing as ownership).
Human worth(This is really quite the opposite, there are to many humans destroying the equillibrum of the planet, it would be logical to kill a few billion off)
Value in general of anything(Nothing can be proven to be more important than anything else)
Free Time(Why is this important, but most believe it is necessary).
Medical Care(Why keep the weak alive, but most believe it's important to treat them)
On and On and On. What is my point, everything and I mean everything any of us believe in is unprovable if you removing the basic human created underlying concept accepted as fact. Unless I guess a person believes nothing? Hmmmm, Haven't seen any of those lately.
Argument: Humans don't need free time
Counter Argument: It's been shown that humans are happier and do better work when they have free time.
Under lying human assumption used as fact: Happiness matters, and how they work matters. Now it seems that is a stupid argument to say those don't matter. But where is the proof that our happiness and work matter. The only logic beneath those next layers are also human assumption.,
Argument: God is Stupid.
Counter Argument: I feel happier and better knowing that there is an afterlife, and the universe isn't chaotic.
Under lying human assumption used as fact: Your Happiness matters, and your thoughts on the afterlife matter. Now it seems a stupid argument to try to convince someone not to believe in something that makes them happy. But where's the proof.
Argument: Art/Entertainment/Sports are retarded waste of time.
Counter Argument: It make people feel good to watch such things, and happy people make for good citizens.
Under lying human assumption used as fact: That feeling good is important, that good citizens are important, or further that civilization is important for that matter.
Most of these things are treated as factually important parts of the human experience, and most couldn't imagine life without them or some of them.
It is a small leap from believing any or all of Music, Art, Sports, Human worth, medical care, education, property rights etc are relevant to human existance to believing that the concept of God is important to many humans. They are all made up concepts that aid in making us happy and content. They are impossible to prove of being of any value at all when you exclude the human assumptions. So what if some say that God is real. Others say that art is important and push that into schools as if it has real value. Prove it in a way not based on a human assumption that anything you believe is important or trully has "value". You can't......
Oh some smart ass is going to say I can prove hydrogen has one electron or something like that. But GOD isn't about physical science. GOD is about emotion, purpose, equillibrum, hope, justice, etc.... This is what the atheists miss focusing solely on the pure sciences aspect. God is a spiritual, emotional, thing, like love of art, or belief in karma, or belief in right and wrong, human worth, etc.... Those sort of things are purely human constructs every last one of them. Pure and simple. You can't scrap God, without replacing it with something else. And you can't compare measuring sand to belief in concepts like justice, equality, rights, political systems, god(which for most embodies those idealized concepts). One is a real science, and the others aren't science at all. I'd say nearly universally recognized as fact concepts such as human worth, rights, government, are just as important as hard science facts.
Anywho, Atheists can beat there head against the wall until it bleeds, or they come to realize, that god is a social construct. No different than a belief in rights, or karma. It's a way of thinking about things in terms of HUMAN interaction and sets in place IDEALIZED controls and systems of RIGHT and WRONG. It also sets in place a system of mental reward and punishment mechanisms. Just like society does with it's social mores, taboos, fame, etc.... So, what exactly is to be proven wrong or right here that is of consequence?
Is all of this about Evolution, Where the Universe came from? Does it really matter? Those things won't affect us and there is so much to learn about the little questions that those questions aren't even worth mentioning. Like how does gravity transmit instantaneously when theoritically nothing can move or transmit faster than light. Or How to power a house without fossil fuels. Etc. Etc... Belief or Non-Belief in god is non-consequential for most scientific quests and doesn't even relate really.
So, I'm confused why people are so concerned with getting rid of "god" when there are so many illogical, irrational notions we accept as fact besides god. (okay, I know someone is going to deny believing anything so they don't get caught, so how about I say "most" people believe in some self-evident truths"
Why is this different? And when militant atheists realize that they stop being militant atheists.
No one here can claim not having at least one belief not based on proof.
I am going to paraphrase this quote because I dont remember it exactly.
"There are things which it is important to believe in. Things like honor and courage and the Divine and the value of human life and the like, because a man finds himself and his value simply by the act of believing in these things, whether they are true or not."
Robert Duvall
Secondhand Lions
I tend to think that people can believe whatever they want to believe. The problem I have is with people who insist I should believe something or not, and even moreso when they attempt to legislate or simply inflict their version of morality on me and everybody else.
A perfect example of this comes from my mandatory union meetings 2 years ago. The guy elected to be my representative (as a probationary longshoreman) was a member of the God Squad, and chose to inflict his religion through prayer and words at a work meeting that I was required to attend.
So I (and I found out about 30 other people) wrote him nice letters and basically pointed out that his religious beliefs had no place at the meetings.
His response at the next meeting was to abusively harangue us (as a group; all 1500 of us) for being intolerant of his beliefs, largely because his beliefs were true and we were all wrong.
So I (and about 60 people) wrote him not-quite-so-nice letters and pointed out that his forcing us to endure his proselyting at our mandatory work meeting was illegal under state and federal labor laws, and indicated that he should cease and desist immediately.
His response at the next meeting was to continue to abusively harangue us for not showing the proper respect to our union by allowing him to preach to us about something/somebody whose names rhymed with either Todd or Pieces.
So a friend of mine wrote a letter to the ACLU, who contacted our union and pointed out that the union would be liable if the behavior of this guy continued at our mandatory meetings. Since they had them on hand, the various civil labor statues regarding religion in the workplace were politely explained to our union leadership. The ACLU basically indicated that the union had two choices; make the meetings voluntary or to cease and desist trying to make it a prayer group meeting.
The individual in question has not been to a meeting since.
Sinergy
Edited because, while he is a wonderful actor, we dont need two "Robert Duvall "Secondhand Lions"" in this post.
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