quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Proof? There is no proof either way. That's the whole point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
i have yet to see any proof of evolution and even today Darwin's Theory remains theory.

This is what I find worrying. There is an enormous amount of evidence for the theory of natural selection. I assume you have never studied it because otherwise I cannot fathom such a deeply anti-intellectual position on the subject. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

Again I must ask, do you just not accept physical evidence from the world and universe around you?

i have never once said that i don't see the evidence of natural selection or evolution.  A human being starts in the womb as a thing with a tail and gills and flippers which would suggest evolution.  However, there is no definative PROOF and even looking for two-celled organisms is fruitless because there are only a few algae that form cell pairs but not always.  *shrug*  The way i live my life is to question everything, ask, seek, knock, learn.  Belief that there is a Power or energy form that human beings have named God doesn't fly in the face of science, it is complementary to it, in my opinion, and at least for me, makes me want to know more.  It bothers me that so many people will blindly accept any theory that is aimed to disprove a diety.  Sound too repressive to me, but that's just my opinion.  Newton and other pioneers of physical science were motivated by their spiritual belief that to understand "God's" law of nature would help them understand the nature of "God"  Should we throw out all these works simply because they started with the assumption that there is a diety that made these laws?  Of course not!  i only appeal to people to have open minds.  i appeal to people to stop seeking to divide humanity by bigotry. 

Penn Jillette wrote "I Believe"  His thoughts about his belief and how it provides meaning to his life is elegant.  i didn't read a single word that suggested that he felt anyone who didn't believe the same were stupid, irrational, or wrong.  The NPR segment is called "I Believe" not 'This Is Truth That All People Should Accept'. 

The difference in what Penn Jillette believes happens to agree with the OP.  The OP doesn't quote all the other NPR segments.  We get it.  Some folks don't believe in any deity, some believe in a deity that is personal and some folks believe there are aliens from other planets who can navigate time and space but don't know how an anus works.  It matters not at all, it matters that we find a way to live together as a human community and not constantly seek to find fault with others.

Again, i have to wonder at the motive of this thread and the one before it.  Is the motive to say "I don't believe in a deity and look, there's others who agree with me?"  or is it just a forum for bigotry?  i repeat myself but it would seem some people will not be happy unless everyone on the planet agrees with them and sees through their eyes and therefore those people will never be happy. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

Actually, I'm refuting MeatCleaver's argument.  When I asked him to provide verifiable objective evidence that God doesn't exist, he said "You can't prove something that doesn't exist."  My point was simply to say, just because science can't prove that God doesn't exist, doesn't make it a fact.  Just because I can't prove that He does exist, also doesn't make it a fact.  The "God of the Gaps" argument isn't made here.  I'm simply saying that you can't say something doesn't exist, just because *you* have no evidence of that existence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver




If I said I believe in the omnipotent pink elephant born of the mouse and was sacrificed on the fires of McDonalds and fed to children at birthday parties only to rise from the dead and ascend to heaven, I suspect you would be an 'apinkelephantist' and think I am barmy. Well consider ..... Need I go through all the absurdities of all the religions which all claim to be the one and only truth?

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If I said I believe in the omnipotent pink elephant born of the mouse and was sacrificed on the fires of McDonalds and fed to children at birthday parties only to rise from the dead and ascend to heaven, I suspect you would be an 'apinkelephantist' and think I am barmy. Well consider ..... Need I go through all the absurdities of all the religions which all claim to be the one and only truth?

Actually the Yoruba religion of Orisha make no such claim.  They believe that each of the world's religions, including their own, hold only a piece of the truth and that only by world unity will the entire truth be revealed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

God, in regard to science, is an irrelevence unless science comes across a something that can only be explained through supernatural intervention and so far that has not happened and appears to be unlikely to happen.

As for atheists, most atheists I know and I include my self here, are atheists in the absence of any evidence of god existing. If believers in god produced evidence that god existed, I would gladly admit I'm wrong. However, as long as believers claim god exists and produce no evidence and say god exists simply because they say god exists, well, I have too much respect for my intelligence to go along with that.

If I said I believe in the omnipotent pink elephant born of the mouse and was sacrificed on the fires of McDonalds and fed to children at birthday parties only to rise from the dead and ascend to heaven, I suspect you would be an 'apinkelephantist' and think I am barmy. Well consider ..... Need I go through all the absurdities of all the religions which all claim to be the one and only truth?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Thanks for dropping by to tell us how much you don't like this thread.

quote:

I'm sure there's something elsewhere you might enjoy. Feel free to go looking for it.

quote:

As for atheists, most atheists I know and I include my self here, are atheists in the absence of any evidence of god existing. If believers in god produced evidence that god existed, I would gladly admit I'm wrong. However, as long as believers claim god exists and produce no evidence and say god exists simply because they say god exists, well, I have too much respect for my intelligence to go along with that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Why does one have to be "better" than another?  Better for whom?  Again, what is the purpose?  Why do these threads have to be a forum for division.  Why can't people spend this much time and effort finding ways to unify rather than divide?

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking

And I would say that the scientists who said that the sun revolved around the earth, that white light was not made of many colors of light, that germs don't exist, that sub-atomic particles don't exist would all agree with that statement....until they were proven wrong.  My point is: just because we can't prove it either way, doesn't make it any more (or less) true.

It is no less absurd than it would be to say that you don't believe Chin Chin (a local chain restaurant) exists...because you haven't seen "proof" that it exists.  It exists not because I say it exists, but simply because it does.  I have seen proof that it does (in my own life), but not knowing if I am truthful or not, you have no reason to believe it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
QuietlySeeking - I understand your point perfectly and have heard it many times. Nothing new here. When you reduce your points they all come out to a God of the Gaps argument.  The above and similar examples you have raised are clearly intended to advance that position, arguing that because we have found the unexpected in places we have not looked before, god is probably there. Being personally overwhelmed by the mystery of life and form is not universal proof of the existence of a creator.

Z.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

It's ironic that Jesus specifically advocated a complete seperation of religion from politics.  It's too bad no one wants to follow His teachings.  When religion and politics are interwoven, it's a problem, period.  Whether it's the politics or the religion, i couldn't say.  You will think one way, i will think another.  Once again, i see this thread as being a way to bash others and serves no one but as a forum for bigotry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking
I'm simply saying that you can't say something doesn't exist, just because *you* have no evidence of that existence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietlySeeking
Actually, I'm refuting MeatCleaver's argument.  When I asked him to provide verifiable objective evidence that God doesn't exist, he said "You can't prove something that doesn't exist."  My point was simply to say, just because science can't prove that God doesn't exist, doesn't make it a fact.  Just because I can't prove that He does exist, also doesn't make it a fact.  The "God of the Gaps" argument isn't made here.  I'm simply saying that you can't say something doesn't exist, just because *you* have no evidence of that existence.

quote:

I tend to think that people can believe whatever they want to believe.  The problem I have is with people who insist I should believe something or not, and even moreso when they attempt to legislate or simply inflict their version of morality on me and everybody else.

quote:

Which would you prefer? A president who weighs evidence and makes decisions based on clear risk / benefit analysis or one who rushes into a stupid, cruel war because god told him to?