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Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a Lon... - 1/10/2007 9:21:20 AM   
TreSwank


Posts: 1165
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		     My twenty-three years on the planet earth haven't been as rewarding as I had once imagined "grown-up life" to be, as a starry-eyed, acne-faced, porn-hungry, adolescent.  In place of another Proust-like masturbatory romp down memory lane, I'll just say my continued existence can be best summed up as a long, tedious social experient................one in which the "advocatus diaboli" (Yours Truly), continuously gets a kick in the ass from the real world, and other folk's opinions.  That being said, I'd like to voice another opinion, that is sure to make TreSwank look like an asshole, albeit a sincere and well-meaning one.

I'm fickle about folks that occupy the space around me...........that force themselves into my sensory awareness.  Even when I walk out into the street sporting a hoodie and ripped denims, I've always had a certain carriage about myself, and manner of speech that practically SCREAMED "propriety", despite my slummin' it status (Some people mistake it for gayness).  I guess it's because my grandmother's iron-fisted codes of conduct and emphasis on proper enunciation is still pounding away at my consciousness from beyond the grave.  I possess a certain comfort zone that dictates what I feel comfortable around, and 90% of black folks, and most poor people (of any race) don't fit into that niche.

I know that there are numerous exceptions to the rule......that there are black folks that don't act in a way that's typically associated with "African Americans", and poor folks that don't fit the mold of "white-trash", dysgenic garbage, but, from my empirical observations, these people are spread out far and in-between.  When I see a rowdy group of black-youth traipsing down the sidewalks of downtown, I cringe at the thought of my being forced to endure having my comfort-zone violated  by loud, rowdy, obnoxious individuals that care very little for my sense of equilibrium. When I have to work alongside groups of Puerto-Rican males, or poor ebonics-slinging white kids from some modern-day, ethnic melting-pot shanty-town, I want to SCREAMMMMMMMM "Bloody Murder".

Even though I do have a bit of a raw sexual preference for "ethnic" women, I feel comfortable around "super-caucasian" white people, as long as snobbish pretense doesn't play a factor.  I don't hate people of other races - I just DO NOT feel comfortable around folks whose social conditioning makes their modes of behavior vastly different from my own.  Rarely do I meet African American, Puerto-Rican, Mexican, or poor-white guys that I can actually get along with, without the ingestion of LARGE amounts of alcohol. 

Does this make me a racist, or is it an understandable preference?  What's your opinion?

< Message edited by TreSwank -- 1/10/2007 9:25:36 AM >
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 9:33:07 AM   
sharemeuk


Posts: 52
Joined: 11/21/2006
Status: offline 		i think having a certain 'type' with whom you feel more comfortable is just about what feels normal to you, we almost all have some of that in us.... my dad is utterly uncomfortable around people who have an obvious physical disability just because he's never had to deal with anyone in that situation, he doesn't know how to behave and therefore he can't relax...
i think that type of behaviour is hugely different to racism, classism etc where you actually seek to thrust your negative  opinion about a whole sector of society onto anyone who will give you the chance to vent.
providing you can honestly say that your behaviour isn't dictated by hatred then you shouldn't have to excuse who you have within your own social circle.

jmho  x

(in reply to TreSwank)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 9:34:23 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		From an anthropological point of view I have to tell you that what you describe about not feeling "comfortable" is fairly average. Now your views on why this is so border on racism, but most people feel uncomfortable around people from different cultures. When I was in catering at this resort I used to take care of a weekly group of Aussies on their way to Yosemite. At times I felt uncomfortable around them, unsure of what they were talking about, and they made less sense to me than poor people in the USA. It is a cultural difference, not an ethnic one, not because they were ill educated (they were well off to be coming to America for the most part).

You know I grew up in a completely White area. Even the Hispanic people were White in cultural attributes. It was a Wonder Bread life. I was constantly told by my peers to "stop talkin' college" as they would lovingly say as we would get shit faced. It is not an ethnic thing, it is how one is raised.

I think perhaps you should go to some economically depressed White areas of the country, perhaps snake handler terrain, and see that you would probably have the same feeling with them as you do with Black people.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/10/2007 9:36:00 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TreSwank)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 9:44:39 AM   
TreSwank


Posts: 1165
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		I grew up with my grandparents, who were both Kentucky Appalachian-born, and belonged to the Holiness Church (speaking in tongues, snake-handling, etc)  They both had super-heavy Southern accents, but my grandma was always slightly annoyed at my level of discomfort around Southerners, and my lack of any masculine, rough-edged qualities generally associated with Southern men (while at the same time raising me up on the Golden girls, body lotions, shopping, and neurotic sheltering).   I wonder if there's a word for people that get slightly paranoid when they hear southern accents.  A few years ago, when I visited my old Carolina homestead, I felt like I was walking into fucking Deliverance.

About the only groups that don't make me uncomfortable other than whitebreads are Asians (with the exception of filipinos) and gays.  I love being around gay men, because of their bubbling personalites and superior aesthetic sense.

< Message edited by TreSwank -- 1/10/2007 9:57:27 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 9:48:53 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		While one has certain comfort levels with that which they know, some of the best times I have ever had have been with people of different cultures, backgrounds, tanning solutions or any other non-mundane being.





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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to TreSwank)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 9:54:20 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		People are comfortable to what they have been exposed to and lived with and it is natural to be scared or nervous to what we are not exposed to or do not understand. It is one of the base reasons why most people seek out and hang with people like them on some core level. Whether cultural, ethnic, career or unique interest we have a natural desire to be with our “own”.

Now when we take differences and combine it with fear, ignorance and judgment is when racism, discrimination and arrogance come into play.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:04:19 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline 		Using Fast Reply...

I think you have class (i.e. economics) and race confused.  Poor black people who don't have an adequate grasp of the english language are not representative for all black people.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:08:39 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

From an anthropological point of view I have to tell you that what you describe about not feeling "comfortable" is fairly average. Now your views on why this is so border on racism, but most people feel uncomfortable around people from different cultures. When I was in catering at this resort I used to take care of a weekly group of Aussies on their way to Yosemite. At times I felt uncomfortable around them, unsure of what they were talking about, and they made less sense to me than poor people in the USA. It is a cultural difference, not an ethnic one, not because they were ill educated (they were well off to be coming to America for the most part).

You know I grew up in a completely White area. Even the Hispanic people were White in cultural attributes. It was a Wonder Bread life. I was constantly told by my peers to "stop talkin' college" as they would lovingly say as we would get shit faced. It is not an ethnic thing, it is how one is raised.

I think perhaps you should go to some economically depressed White areas of the country, perhaps snake handler terrain, and see that you would probably have the same feeling with them as you do with Black people.



How many ways does he have to say "90% of black folks, and most poor people (of any race) don't fit into that niche.



In the end I read his posts as more a matter of If someone is "Rough around the edges" then he is uncomfortable around them. That crosses race and focuses on the idea of behaviour.

Problem is if you mention race at all even with the context someone is going to call racist.


(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:09:09 AM   
TreSwank


Posts: 1165
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

Using Fast Reply...

I think you have class (i.e. economics) and race confused.  Poor black people who don't have an adequate grasp of the english language are not representative for all black people.

C~


It's  not the language itself............it's a whole vibe and manner of carrying themselves that makes me a little less inclined to want to be around most black people.  Even "professional" black folks seem to carry that aura around that makes me feel, "not so comfortable".

By the way............I think Archer has a better grasp of what I was trying to articulate  than most people would.

< Message edited by TreSwank -- 1/10/2007 10:10:47 AM >

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:09:54 AM   
mymasterssub69


Posts: 566
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		what's my opinion?

you're not alone in your thinking and i feel that doesn't make you a racist. yes this African-American woman is agreeing with you. i like you was raised to enunicate every single word by my mother (she was raised that way after being adopted) ...no "ghetto"slang or street talk was allowed in the house - that was for your friends which was always the rule. i'm raising mine to do the same no matter how they don't like it when i correct their English and Spanish (we speak both languages).

i cringe in my own skin whenever i hear that vicious N-word is used among all genders and ages in my race ...i deplore the way some of us conduct ourselves in public (from panhandling to selling stolen merchandise to standing on the street corners) ...i also don't like the jeans hanging off a young (and sometimes older too) guy's arse as he walks down the street. not saying ALL African-Americans are like this and yes there are some positve aspects of this race the public doesn't get to see but it's there being overshadowed by the negative.

does this personally make a racist within my own race? some might see it that way but i don't think so. i merely chose not to associate myself with people of that type of behavior. even my neighbors thought i was snob and very uppity because i didn't smoke, do drugs and/or drink like that they do 24/7 or play loud rap music - they soon found out that i love classic rock, enjoy taking the UMs to musuems, free concerts and the library ...that i actually spend time with them. they were shocked at how they could speak two foreign languages, well-mannered and behaved.  my neighbors moved out when they realized i wasn't playing about calling the police to report their gang activities inside the building.

sorry for the long post - once again, it's my opinion you're not a racist.


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there is something infinitely magical
about a Daddy Dom
...something only a little girl
can understand.

collared on 16th Jan 2007 by bigsambaman, my Daddy

(in reply to TreSwank)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:12:03 AM   
TreSwank


Posts: 1165
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		Hmmmmmm.  Guess I'm not alone.

(in reply to mymasterssub69)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:14:49 AM   
mymasterssub69


Posts: 566
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		no you're not

*hugs*


_____________________________

there is something infinitely magical
about a Daddy Dom
...something only a little girl
can understand.

collared on 16th Jan 2007 by bigsambaman, my Daddy

(in reply to TreSwank)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:19:46 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreSwank

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

Using Fast Reply...

I think you have class (i.e. economics) and race confused.  Poor black people who don't have an adequate grasp of the english language are not representative for all black people.

C~


It's  not the language itself............it's a whole vibe and manner of carrying themselves that makes me a little less inclined to want to be around most black people.  Even "professional" black folks seem to carry that aura around that makes me feel, "not so comfortable".


I'm seriously confused about the aura you are talking about because you agree with mymasterssub's description of some black people that to me are indicators of poverty (using the word nigger, panhandling, selling stolen merchandise).  So whats this aura that cuts across economic and professional levels?

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to TreSwank)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:22:44 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"I wonder if there's a word for people that get slightly paranoid when they hear southern accents."

Oh man, I just can't...





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(in reply to Wildfleurs)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:24:45 AM   
TreSwank


Posts: 1165
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		If I could give you an adequate description, Wildfleurs, I wouldn't have used the word "aura".  I think that it might a certain rough-edge and visceral nature that's apparent ESPECIALLY in black men, with whom I tend to not get along.  It's almost like an uber-masculine arrogance that makes me feel out-of-place.  Now, in black women, I see it more in less socio-economically developed areas, but with black men, I sense it all across the board.  Sure, I'v seen a few black guys with that level of internal polish, but not many.

I think that same quality is also what attracts alot of white girls to black men.  For some people, it's like a sex pheromone, and for others, it's just a real nuisance.  Some girls have told me that black men know how to "rock it" the right way, though!

< Message edited by TreSwank -- 1/10/2007 10:34:11 AM >

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:38:00 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Problem is if you mention race at all even with the context someone is going to call racist.


Oh but you misinterpret what I say, I consider myself bigoted and have at times held opinions that bordered an racist. I do not see that in and of itself a put down. I have taken so many courses on ethnicity, sat in class after class in which good people would say the most bigoted things, and to be honest, I think that treswank's post is a very good one, because he is exposing his experiences (which in my opinion are not really racist compared to many others I have heard) for everyone to think about and mull over. It is with a spirit of understanding that he posted this, not one of trying to denigrate others.

Ignorance breeds ethnocentricity (which is really the correct term if one wants to split hairs). I cannot help but think that if people expose themselves to what they think of as "other", with the spirit of knowing where those "other" people come from, then they would feel more comfortable with them. The truth of the matter is that we are all much more alike than we are different.

I remember once being very upset in a class about ethnicity because of some of the comments made in that class. I talked to the professor afterwards because I almost lost my temper and I asked him "How can you just sit there and let people say that crap?" His answer took some time to for me digest and to process, but in the end I saw that it was true. It is not my job (as an anthropologist) to rid the world of stereotyping, hatred, bigotry, and ethnocentricity. It is my job to acknowledge it exists, and to understand the "why" of it. It is more important to send a message of understanding than it is to jump people for being bigoted or ethnocentric.

I think you misunderstood my post Archer, which is fine, but I wanted to make sure I stated my real feelings on the subject. It still gets to me when people use racial stereotypes to denigrate others. Swanky is exploring his feelings, not denigating others at all.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:38:06 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		What Swanky has described is true across all societes social classes racial groups and in all directions. ie from top to bottom or vice versa of the social spectrum.
The folly is that PC liberals, my favourite bete noire, ooh err racism, deny it and are experimenting to construct a Utopia based on that denial. Is it going to work ????

There is all the world of difference between benign discrimination and abusive prejudice.

A personal comment Swanky; 23 years is not that long, you seem to have learned a hell of a lot and barring some self destructive nose dive I would expect your prospects to be good.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/10/2007 10:44:06 AM >

(in reply to TreSwank)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:38:50 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		When you keep looking at the ideas of "Why do I feel this way around X" So long as you can narrow the source to be a behavior trait, and don't fall into the trap of Most X race people have this trait. Then you are on reasonable ground. When you keep the focus on what behaviour you dislike/ makes you uncomfortable then racism tends to go away on it's own.

I would encourage you to dig a bit deeper into the "feeling" you get even from professional level African Americans and see if it is not a little based on some level of hidden stereotype. You might find that it is an entirely different thing. Such as anyone neasonably new to professional success who seems bent on proving themselves, bothers me, reguardless of race or gender.

The connection may not be racial at all. Folks who are rough around the edges other me and Folks who seem to need to prove themselves to be good enough bother me for completely different reasons.

Dig past the surface and figure out what it is about the people who make you uncomfortable, focus on the behaviour/ attitudeignore the causes of the behaviour whenever possible.

(in reply to TreSwank)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:40:46 AM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreSwank

If I could give you an adequate description, Wildfleurs, I wouldn't have used the word "aura".  I think that it might a certain rough-edge and visceral nature that's apparent ESPECIALLY in black men, with whom I tend to not get along.  It's almost like an uber-masculine arrogance that makes me feel out-of-place.  Now, in black women, I see it more in less socio-economically developed areas, but with black men, I sense it all across the board.  Sure, I'v seen a few black guys with that level of internal polish, but not many.

I think that same quality is also what attracts alot of white girls to black men.  For some people, it's like a sex pheromone, and for others, it's just a real nuisance.  Some girls have told me that black men know how to "rock it" the right way, though!


I think the issue is that you do keep on describing it and then saying you aren't describing it.  Even in this post you say that its an "internal polish."  In other posts you agree with characterizations like using the word nigger, panhandling, and other descriptions.  Based on those things I really do think that you just haven't been exposed to a wide range of black people, but I think its absolutely fine to have personal preferences in partners (regardless of the reasons).

C~


_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to TreSwank)
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RE: Racism, Classism, or Justified Preference? (It's a... - 1/10/2007 10:41:11 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		My twenty-three years on the planet earth haven't been as rewarding as I had once imagined "grown-up life" to be, as a starry-eyed, acne-faced, porn-hungry, adolescent.
With respect you are only 23 years old and in my experience not all but in general 23 year olds haven't really grown comfy in their own skin yet. I'm 33 and not entirely comfy in mine yet!
 
I've always had a certain carriage about myself, and manner of speech that practically SCREAMED "propriety", despite my slummin' it status
Your spoken word may scream it but your typing here doesn't. I always see your posts as interesting, funny but with a child like quality. Notice i said quality it is not a flame.
 
I don't think your post is racist, classist or anything. You are not putting these people down, just saying they fall out of your comfort zone. From your recent threads i see a restlessness in you and a searching for what direction your life should take and who you are. All i can think is before you can be comfy with others you have to be comfortable with yourself.

_____________________________

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If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to TreSwank)
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