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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 2:48:02 PM   
Real0ne


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fast reply

my question is:  how many troops at what time frame do we need to win?

the answer ia Zero.

No one has ever been able to take over that area of the world because they will NEVER stop coming after us.  Ever man woman and child will die first.  they could send 10,000000 men and insurrgents will just keep coming making it a battle of attrition for lifes.  We knew that or should have known that going in.




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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 5:20:17 PM   
WyrdRich


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     Here you are, Sinergy.

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1754132/posts

    Please note the nice quote from Gorbachev about the Cold War being over and who won.  There are also some nice tidbits about the efforts made to rewrite history by Reagan opponents.

     (Edit:  The paragraph above the headline in the link isn't really necessary in my opinion, but there it was.  I do not share the authors opinion that liberals are dumbasses.)    

< Message edited by WyrdRich -- 1/15/2007 5:35:32 PM >

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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 6:33:11 PM   
MzMia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

fast reply

my question is:  how many troops at what time frame do we need to win?

the answer ia Zero.

No one has ever been able to take over that area of the world because they will NEVER stop coming after us.  Ever man woman and child will die first.  they could send 10,000000 men and insurrgents will just keep coming making it a battle of attrition for lifes.  We knew that or should have known that going in.



Sadly, I agree...I want to think differently, but I do agree.
They will never stop fighting in the Middle East, thats what they do.

_____________________________

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To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 6:49:13 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Sinergy, I started to type something around this a few pages back but lost commitment half-way through and binned it.

Anway, I agree. The neo-liberal economic policies currently governing US foreign policy were the brainchild of reagan and thatcher. These two put us on the road to this - bush is merely closing out reagan's policies.


Thatcher would never have approved of the deficit Bush has caused, if Thatcher was the American President, millions would be out of work to get the books balanced.


Ok.

J. H. Hetfield in Fortunate Son made that statement.

Whoever wrote the Bush Dyslexicon made that statement.

The author of "The Madness of King George" made that statement.

I can probably provide more sources if I empty out my dock bag, but I think the references cited in Fortunate Son trump almost everything. 

If you would care to cite source material to back up the claim that Monkeyboy's political theories do not harken back to and are akin to Reaganomics I would be more than willing to read them.  He learned trickle down economics when his Daddy was Reagan's VP.

Regarding his budget idiocy, he did the same thing which Reagan did; offload government control and give government duties to private corporations who proceeded to fleece the national moneybags.  Only Monkeyboy did it far more egregiously than Reagan ever thought of doing.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 7:08:53 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

   Here you are, Sinergy.

  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1754132/posts

  Please note the nice quote from Gorbachev about the Cold War being over and who won.  There are also some nice tidbits about the efforts made to rewrite history by Reagan opponents.

   (Edit:  The paragraph above the headline in the link isn't really necessary in my opinion, but there it was.  I do not share the authors opinion that liberals are dumbasses.)    


Lets see, Reagan tells Gorbachev to drop the wall, and the wall comes down, erego, it must have been Reagan.

But my favorite is the following.  From the source you cited.

quote:


Historically it is common for nations to experience poor economic performance, but never have food shortages or technological backwardness been sufficient causes for the destruction of a large empire. The Roman empire survived internal corrosion for centuries before it was destroyed by the invasion of the barbarian hordes. The Ottoman empire persisted as the "sick man of Europe" for generations and ended only with catastrophic defeat in World War I.


Every empire that Rome defeated was defeated largely because the Roman's developed iron weapons and armor, battle tactics, and seige engines.  This would be synonymous with technological backwardness on the part of the conquered people.

Everybody and their dog has a theory as to why the Roman empire collapsed.  I tend to go with the whole systems approach theory that a lot of things were part of the cause.

The "loss of nerve" stated in the article, if you read about it, was because Reagan's hawkish antagonism with the USSR was correctly identified, by the intelligence organizations in the USSR, as a lunatic attempting to pick a fight that nobody could win, and the political apparatus of the USSR (helped Gorbachev decide) decided not to launch missiles when the US raised their defense levels.

I worked in Aerospaz for almost 18 years during this time period.  When I would read about the various things which "Star Wars" weapons were reputed to do, I came to the conclusion that while they were a lovely idea, they were technologically unworkable and outrageously expensive.

But since Reagan was a "all big business, all the time" kind of person, when the people from large corporations like TRW, Northrop, Raytheon, etc., would brief him with "We can build an unassailable missile defense system that is satellite based and relies on lasers to shoot out missiles on the ground," his level of education in things like basic physics, etc., did not make him consider the likelihood that these things would not work.

I worked on one of the last "cost plus" contracts ever awarded.  The company I worked for was told to build X and the government would pick up all costs and add something for profit.  These were regularly used during most of the Cold War for the company to recommend some ridiculously unworkable thing, charge the government outrageous sums, and not have to provide a product.

After that, all contracts were flat fee contracts.  Company would say it costs X amount of money to build.  Government would allocate X amount of money.  Company would build it or get sued.

As a side note, another lovely indicator of Reagan era policies being implemented is that almost every contract awarded while the Simian In Chief has been on watch have been cost plus.

The final quote in your article states that it was Reagan's vision that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.  However, the article fails to prove what he actually did to make it come about.

Sinergy

edited to add a conquered people thingummy

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 1/15/2007 7:09:59 PM >


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 7:30:47 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I worked in Aerospaz for almost 18 years during this time period.  When I would read about the various things which "Star Wars" weapons were reputed to do, I came to the conclusion that while they were a lovely idea, they were technologically unworkable and outrageously expensive.



       It's called a "bluff."  You have played poker haven't you? 


         This sort of exchange is why I prefer simple conversation.
"My link is better than yours," really sucks in my opinion. 

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 7:39:13 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I worked in Aerospaz for almost 18 years during this time period.  When I would read about the various things which "Star Wars" weapons were reputed to do, I came to the conclusion that while they were a lovely idea, they were technologically unworkable and outrageously expensive.



      It's called a "bluff."  You have played poker haven't you? 


        This sort of exchange is why I prefer simple conversation.
"My link is better than yours," really sucks in my opinion. 


I have played poker.

However, bluffing with the threat of thermonuclear war seems idiotic to me.  Although this is my own opinion and I could be wrong.  Gorbachev almost went nuclear but was talked out of it by the people in his government, who rightly perceived that Reagan was bluffing.

I personally think the idea that Reagan bluffed the Soviet Union into it's collapse to be rather simple-minded, ignorant, and obtuse, but if it works for you I say go with it.

Sinergy

p.s. Surprising to me that Monkeyboy didnt "bluff" Saddam Hussein into surrender.  A lot of soldiers in our military would have been a lot happier.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 7:55:07 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
p.s. Surprising to me that Monkeyboy didnt "bluff" Saddam Hussein into surrender.  A lot of soldiers in our military would have been a lot happier.



       Go find a thread I started a few months back called "Did the left start the war in Iraq."  You might find my opinions a bit startling on that subject. 

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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 8:00:37 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
p.s. Surprising to me that Monkeyboy didnt "bluff" Saddam Hussein into surrender.  A lot of soldiers in our military would have been a lot happier.



      Go find a thread I started a few months back called "Did the left start the war in Iraq."  You might find my opinions a bit startling on that subject. 


Sorry I added that as a p.s.  I thought we were discussing the Reagan legacy.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 8:39:02 PM   
mnottertail


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Well, the issue of a bluff...it is only good when you are sitting at table, it holds no value elsewise....and really lotsa money was poured into the National Science Foundation and all that shit..shooting ball bearings and lasers and other ignominious asswipe.  Reagen slashed the interest rates down to 16% from 22% under Carter, but the trouble was you had to have a job, didn't float downstream that way.

What really resolved the issue is that we poured so much money into the Star Wars that we couldn't keep loaning shit to Russia.....they fell apart, only reason.

Now, you see the legacy of Star Wars in Iraq....We can waltz into any country today, flatten it tomorrowbut cant hold it cause we dont have troops, should have been done with computers and so on.

Now, look around you--your terrorists hold your pocketbook, they will own you.  saddam Hussein has nothing to do with Osama Bin Lauden, but the terrorists have used american bravado to put you in it.   NOW you want to see Iran?  Shoulda went where terrorism was, rather than fuck around with somebody that kept that secure.

Nah, never mind...too complex, let's go kick the shit out of Iran, only logical at this point, but don't pussy foot around goddammit----lay waste to Persia, dig a hole in that cocksucker and kill every man, woman and child, start taking out ragheads at home here too, don't want to have to deal with this in several lifetimes, and put bases back in Turkey let the Kurds have a go at running the area....Otherwise you armchair politicos and warriors stay home.

Ron  

_____________________________

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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 8:47:45 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, the issue of a bluff...it is only good when you are sitting at table, it holds no value elsewise....and really lotsa money was poured into the National Science Foundation and all that shit..shooting ball bearings and lasers and other ignominious asswipe.  Reagen slashed the interest rates down to 16% from 22% under Carter, but the trouble was you had to have a job, didn't float downstream that way.

What really resolved the issue is that we poured so much money into the Star Wars that we couldn't keep loaning shit to Russia.....they fell apart, only reason.

Now, you see the legacy of Star Wars in Iraq....We can waltz into any country today, flatten it tomorrowbut cant hold it cause we dont have troops, should have been done with computers and so on.

Now, look around you--your terrorists hold your pocketbook, they will own you.  saddam Hussein has nothing to do with Osama Bin Lauden, but the terrorists have used american bravado to put you in it.   NOW you want to see Iran?  Shoulda went where terrorism was, rather than fuck around with somebody that kept that secure.

Nah, never mind...too complex, let's go kick the shit out of Iran, only logical at this point, but don't pussy foot around goddammit----lay waste to Persia, dig a hole in that cocksucker and kill every man, woman and child, start taking out ragheads at home here too, don't want to have to deal with this in several lifetimes, and put bases back in Turkey let the Kurds have a go at running the area....Otherwise you armchair politicos and warriors stay home.

Ron  


Why stop with Persia, Ron?

Lets just invade everywhere and be done with the squabbling.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 8:57:24 PM   
mnottertail


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I am not argueing any thought of right and wrong....

Ku, Fu, Chi, Sui, Ka.....

If there exists this here, I will do it....I am saying it is all armchair adventurism, these people are hanging out thier ass, and eastern  thought is not what western thought is, and ruling the world, what will we do tomorrow for fun?

Becuase, as of world war two we barely overcame our crusades in the middle east, and now we wanna go at it for another thousand years.....oil will not last that long and it is just as much money to spend on  alternative fuels as it is fucking around with short term shit that is not a payoff...........

The solution to the middle east, if you dare implement it is the 'final solution' in spades, otherwise this ain't gonna be like the british  empire in the old days.

Ron

oh, yeah and since we aint implementing the draft to do this, the Minnesota National Guard has been re-rotated for another year....as will  others.


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/15/2007 8:58:56 PM >


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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/15/2007 9:03:16 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

oh, yeah and since we aint implementing the draft to do this, the Minnesota National Guard has been re-rotated for another year....as will  others.



Not saying I am for the draft (I am not) but the idea of a "Hot Potato" comes to mind.

There is not a politician alive who wants to suggest it and commit political suicide.

I am more than happy the Republicans want to blame us liberals for that.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/16/2007 6:21:15 AM   
mnottertail


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well, Iran is involved (as I said at the outset, nothing special I wasnt the only one saying it)  the lawmakers are locked into no draft, there will be hell to pay in this country if we keep extending service towards the full 6 years and re-rotating troops into warzones, and frankly, I wanna see how these wizards are gonna sort this shit out, especially with their abysmal socio-political insight and ignorant execution to date....this is world war style shit....crusades all over again.

So, the good news is, that the world is safer because of this; cause George said.

LOL,
Ron  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/16/2007 6:31:11 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Sinergy, I started to type something around this a few pages back but lost commitment half-way through and binned it.

Anway, I agree. The neo-liberal economic policies currently governing US foreign policy were the brainchild of reagan and thatcher. These two put us on the road to this - bush is merely closing out reagan's policies.


Thatcher would never have approved of the deficit Bush has caused, if Thatcher was the American President, millions would be out of work to get the books balanced.


Ok.

J. H. Hetfield in Fortunate Son made that statement.

Whoever wrote the Bush Dyslexicon made that statement.

The author of "The Madness of King George" made that statement.

I can probably provide more sources if I empty out my dock bag, but I think the references cited in Fortunate Son trump almost everything. 

If you would care to cite source material to back up the claim that Monkeyboy's political theories do not harken back to and are akin to Reaganomics I would be more than willing to read them.  He learned trickle down economics when his Daddy was Reagan's VP.

Regarding his budget idiocy, he did the same thing which Reagan did; offload government control and give government duties to private corporations who proceeded to fleece the national moneybags.  Only Monkeyboy did it far more egregiously than Reagan ever thought of doing.

Sinergy



My comment was about NG including Thatcher in his comment, while Thatcher was a neo-liberal in economics and often talked about trickle down economics, she would never have allowed a large deficit to occur. She would have rather seen legions of unemployed sleeping in subways and eating in Salvation Army soup kitchens before that. As one of Thatcher's Chancelor (finance minister) said, 'if its not hurting, its not working.'

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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 1/17/2007 4:51:06 AM   
MzMia


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Whatever you think about the situation in Iraq.  One thing is for certain.
It is getting worse every day.  100 students killed outside of the major University
yesterday.  I can't imagine living there.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 2/5/2007 9:11:46 PM   
MzMia


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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

oh, yeah and since we aint implementing the draft to do this, the Minnesota National Guard has been re-rotated for another year....as will  others.



Not saying I am for the draft (I am not) but the idea of a "Hot Potato" comes to mind.

There is not a politician alive who wants to suggest it and commit political suicide.

I am more than happy the Republicans want to blame us liberals for that.

Sinergy


Too bad, we can't keep recycling the same old troops forever.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 2/5/2007 9:18:13 PM   
MzMia


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Hell I dug my old post up again, as the situation in Iraq gets more serious day by day, I ask myself this question all the time:
Why the hell is the USA having to basically take on the terrorists in the Middle East alone???


_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 2/5/2007 11:35:19 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

Why the hell is the USA having to basically take on the terrorists in the Middle East alone???


Because the USA created most of them in the first place.

As for Iraq, President Chirac told Bush not to go there in the first, he'll only make things worse. Schroeder and just every other European country said the same. Except lapdog Britain that is.

_____________________________

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RE: Who is going to help us take on Iran and company? - 2/5/2007 11:39:58 PM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The term for the invasion of Iraq (detailed in depth in the book "Cobra II") was "Shock and Awe."  Sounds like the people in charge of setting it up wanted to instill terror and fear in the hearts of those invaded.


Good point, Sinergy. Hadn't thought of it that way.

As most Iraqi's dont read US papers or get US news shows... the term is of no value to them. Its just a plan name. I'm not even sure it translates the same way.
Would you prefer we invaded to the cut and run plan???
S

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