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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 10:19:08 AM   
ScooterTrash


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Is why I often do the IMHO (in my humble opinion) because as you say..who is to say it is right or wrong if that is what you truely believe.


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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 11:27:17 AM   
Moleculor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slavedesires


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moleculor

However (and let me just use that line you were so fond of:), you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.



May i respectfully ask,
if someone states their OPINION well and takes responsibility for their own opinion when is it ever wrong?


I dunno, ask mistoferin that. As I said, I was only parroting her words back to her.

As for the fluidity of language, I love the fact that language is as fluid as it is. A perfect example to illustrate how language changes to fit how it is used is the fact that the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) added a word (D'oh) because people were using it. The origination of this word? The Simpsons.


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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 12:04:11 PM   
Youtalkingtome


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What you are talking about is called new speak.It is offten used in politics.
Like this. New speak = We are in a global war. Old speak = world war.
So we are in world war three now.I have only heard Bush use the world war three term once so far.
Or liberalism = socialism.
I could go on and on but I don't want to be political here.

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 2:31:16 PM   
GrandpaLash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

-- Lewis Caroll, from Alice in Wonderland

Words are usually used to stand in for discreet things or concepts. They're a kind of shorthand.



As usual, a thoughtful and though-provoking post. And can I assume that your use of discreet (where I might have used discrete) is a case in point LOL? (Assuming that you did, indeed, mean 'differentiated' and not 'private'.)

Grandpa Lash

< Message edited by GrandpaLash -- 2/27/2005 2:33:18 PM >


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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 2:36:37 PM   
GrandpaLash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It seems to me that I just posted this same sentiment in another thread, different words yes, but the sentiment was the same.


erin, I was actually thinking the same thing.

Grandpa Lash

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 2:48:01 PM   
GrandpaLash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

This is a great post. i also tried to write a similiar post about the generalism here, though it wasnt stated as eloquently. i think its fabulous you brought the subject up and i think you're very right.

Moleculer, she was merely trying to state the decline of the way things "used" to be.


Careful girl, some people on this site are mighty particular about you spelling their handles correctly. *laughing with you font*

Grandpa Lash

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 2:51:06 PM   
songbird26


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Words are usually used to stand in for discreet things or concepts. They're a kind of shorthand. Many words used in the lifestyle (master, slave, dominant, submissive, sadist, masochist, top, bottom, D/s, M/s, BD, SM etc.) are so overloaded with meaning that they are practically meaningless.

I'm probably just gettin' old, but I don't like it. I know we're all non-conformists, but do we really need to dom the language to the point of linguistic anarchy? If a word can mean anything, it doesn't really mean anything, if you know what I mean. The value of words as an aid to communication and social interaction vanishes in the haze.


There are many cunning linguists on this board *cough*, and I am very much enjoying their responses to this post...*grin*

Let's say that you meet someone and he introduces himself as a top. Or a Master. Or a sadist. You know what side of the whip he is on, at least. If you're at all interested in this person, you question further, and find out a few more details of his personal lifestyle. You now know not only what side of the whip he's on, but if he owns 'slaves', has collared a submissive, or simply likes to swing a singletail in highly dramatic fashion to impress the ladies. Total time elapsed? Mere moments. Have we really become so lazy that we can't engage in a simple, short exchange of information that allows us to understand each other a little better? Is it really so much better to have an ironclad definition of "Master," so that you know that this person does X, Y and Z, and doesn't do P, Q and R? Given the incredibly huge and shaded spectrum of bdsm, is it even possible to fit people into such limiting definitions?

I'm a horse trainer. When people ask what I do, that's what I say. But if they're interested in knowing whether I train babies or show horses, English or Western, advanced or beginner, racehorses or pleasure ponies, they must ask for clarification and detail. My job title just gives them a context from which to ask more detailed questions.

I'm not a fan of linguistic anarchy at all. I think that it's a good thing to have basic understandings about the meanings of words, and honestly, I already think we have that: for example, when I see "slave" it brings a different idea to mind than "bottom" or, for that matter, "dominant", and as far as I've seen those shades of meaning are fairly well held-to. But you referred to definitions and titles as a short-hand: I see them more as a jumping-off point for learning MORE about a person.

Not to mention that definitions such as these would be entirely un-enforcable. I could call myself a dominant if I wanted to, and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it. I won't, because that would be really stupid, and anyway I support increasing clarity and honesty of communication, but I could. If Sub Susie wants to call herself a 'slave', and she's in my mind a 'bottom?' How does that affect me at all, unless I'm thinking about having a relationship with her? Why, frankly, should I give a shit? She's happy with how she defines herself, and it doesn't have anything to do with me at all. And she probably wouldn't change it even if she was informed she was 'wrong.' Until and unless we have a Lord High Ruler of BDSM to lay down the law and micromanage every single definition or term used by anyone kinky ever, I have a feeling the language we use will stay as fluid and flexible and diverse as the lifestyles of the people using it.

Hallelujah, and pass the thesaurus!


< Message edited by songbird26 -- 2/27/2005 3:20:19 PM >

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 3:29:30 PM   
happypervert


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If folks want to improve the clarity of any of those terms, I think the best way to do it is by preceding it with the word "twue".

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 4:04:00 PM   
Darthbetta


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I'm gay !



* happy.

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 5:07:47 PM   
Hickory


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darthbetta

I'm gay !



* happy.

You didn't say twue.

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 5:14:21 PM   
TravisTJustice


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"It was much pleasanter at home," thought poor Alice, "when one wasn't always growing larger and smaller, and being ordered around by mice and rabbits. I almost wish I hadn't gone down that rabbit-hole--and yet--and yet--it's rather curious, you know, this sort of life?!" -- from Alice In Wonderland by Lewis Carroll

I love to think of BDSM as like that rabbit-hole. Entering it is, as Alice observes, a challenge to all her perceptions of the world she knows and feels comfortable with at home. In many respects, online BDSM is a world in which one could find themself "ordered around by mice and rabbits". In Alice's case she found it all curious at first and this curiosity led her deeper down the rabbit hole. At its most basic level, it isn't Alice's dealings with the mice and rabbits that matter but rather her own beliefs about everything and, not insignificantly, her conviction to those beliefs.

Our "beliefs" are fundamental to our natures and extend far beyond our religious or political convictions regardless of what they might be. They are in a sense at the core of our being and they drive our every thought and action from the habitual things we think or do with varying levels of conviction or certainty to instincts to habits acquired through experience and learning. Alice thought things were much pleasanter at home because she knew what things meant there. Her beliefs (instincts, habits, learned experiences, etc.) endured comfortably until she headed off down the rabbit hole.

Alice In Wonderland and Through The Looking Glass obviously weren't intended to be metaphors for online BDSM (or RT BDSM for that matter) but it is interesting how many BDSM discussion groups around the world will call themselves names such as "Looking Glass" or "Reflections" or some other similar group title that bespeaks of mirrors, particularly insofar as they might be a portal into some kind of parallel world where things don't always mean what you think they mean. Carroll himself (IIRC) challenged the real life Alice to question whether an orange he once gave her to hold was held in her left or right hand. I forget which she said, but he then told her to look at herself in a mirror and answer again and, of course, the orange then appeared as if it was held in the opposite hand.

If we want to get all introspective and "reflective" about our own natures, then Carroll's stories provide a wealth of metaphor and analogy we can use. I realize this thread is about "words" and the problem of semantics with various titles and labels used in BDSM, but I think the problem isn't so much with what other people use to communicate their "beliefs" but rather our interpretation of and subsequent effect on own own set of beliefs and convictions. Simple logic (an underlying theme of Carroll's works) says our interpretations of any communication are dependant on the way we deal with facts and then the inferences drawn from them. When Alice first meets the Duchess she finds her in the kitchen and in a very bad mood. That's a fact. The next time Alice again meets up with the Duchess, the Duchess is now in a very pleasant mood, which is also a fact:

"You can't think how glad I am to see you again, you dear old thing!" said the Duchess, as she tucked her arm affectionately into Alice's and they walked off together.

Alice was very glad to find her in such a pleasant temper and thought to herself that it was only the pepper that had made her so savage when they met in the kitchen.

"When I'm a Duchess," she said to herself (not in a very hopeful tone, though), "I won't have any pepper in my kitchen at all. Soup does very well without--Maybe it's always pepper that makes people hot-tempered," she went on, very much pleased at having found out a new kind of rule, "and vinegar that makes them sour--and chamomile that makes them bitter--and--and barley-sugar and such things that make children sweet-tempered. I only wish people knew that: then they wouldn't be so stingy about it, you know----"


Alice took the two facts she'd experienced to draw a whole series of inferences which in turn led to her conclusion ("a new kind of rule") to help shape her perception of the Duchess.

If somebody presents themself as a "Master" online, even before any semantic games are played with the word itself, people will by nature draw all manner of inferences from it. An inference is a mental judgement, not just about what something is, but what it means and what it implies. If experience has created a belief that "people who call themselves Master are usually posuers and wannabes" then the inference will be drawn again, thus reinforcing an existing belief for the observer. If however it's taken as a fact at face value, inferences will still be drawn and assumptions made, but they are more likely to be based on other observations with that particular person rather than closing off the decision making process about that person. Perhaps what I'm trying to say is when a person affirms their belief based on an assumption, it says more about the person making that assumption than it does about the person presenting themself by that self-proclaimed title. If it's also true that the Master character presents themself this way in order to validate a belief of their own, by rejecting it out of hand such as is done when no further interaction occurs, does nothing to confirm or deny that person's belief of themself. It may not even confirm or deny the observer's own beliefs and convictions about themself, in the same way as Alice could just as easily have continued living blissfully unaware in the more pleasanter world she knew before she went down the rabbit hole.

The jury scene between the King and the Knave is one which has parallels in online judgements of people:

The king turned pale, and shut his note-book hastily. "Consider your verdict," he said to the jury in a low trembling voice.

"There's more evidence to come yet, please your Majesty," said the White Rabbit, jumping up in a great hurry: "this paper has just been picked up."

"What is in it?" said the Queen.

"I haven't opened it yet," said the White Rabbit: "in fact, there's nothing written on the outside." He unfolded the paper as he spoke, and added "It isn't a letter, after all: it's a set of verses."

"Are they in the prisoner's handwriting?" asked another of the jurymen.

"No, they're not," said the White Rabbit, "and that's the queerest thing about it." (The jury all looked puzzled.)

He must have imitated somebody else's hand," said the King. (The jury all brightened up again.)

"Please your Majesty," said the Knave. "I didn't write it, and they can't prove that I did: there's no name signed at the end."

"If you didn't sign it," said the King, "that only makes the matter worse. You must have meant some mischief, or else you'd have signed your name like an honest man."

There was a general clapping of hands at this: it was the first really clever thing that the King had said that day.


The King believes the Knave is guilty of "something" and he already has made up his mind how the case should turn out. The "facts" here, none of which appear to provide any evidence against the Knave, are used not to determine the guilt or innocence of the Knave, but to explain and validate the pre-existing beliefs of the King.

In this sense and relating it to BDSM online (or elsewhere), the Knave could be anybody, but let's say for the sake of argument it's somebody who presents themself as a Master and that the King in this case is a slave whose attentions are sought by that Master. The jury could be the rest of us here on the boards who are brought into things after the "King" posts a message about "all Knaves have assumptions about me." The King's (slave's) statement, made as fact, is based on a whole bunch of prior experiences that were all happy ones in which Knaves ("Masters") followed a routine and predictable set of protocols in making contact. In other words, the King ("slave") has, based on experience, already established for themself the belief that all Master/slave situations are entered into with expectations of things being or proceeding in certain established ways. Let's say the Knave ("Master") has merely made an approach that doesn't meet pre-conceived expectations. It is unreasonable by all but the craziest of standards (The King in Alice In Wonderland) to condemn the Knave ("Master") by selectively using information that fits with their pre-conceived beliefs and excluding or explaining away that which doesn't.

This is a great thread and thanks to the OP for suggesting it.

"It just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser..."

Travis T.

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 5:30:50 PM   
mistoferin


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Leonidas,
I sincerely apologize for this but I feel that it is something I must answer. I will not have my words slandered across these boards.


ORIGINAL: Moleculor

However (and let me just use that line you were so fond of:), you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.

I dunno, ask mistoferin that. As I said, I was only parroting her words back to her.


Molecular,
If you are going to quote me then I would appreciate it very much if you would actually quote me and not just make up words to suit yourself. The following are direct quotes from the interaction you are referring to.

quote:Molecular
This entire thread has basically been you trying to force everyone to see your definition of D/s or M/s as the "only true definition".


quote: mistoferin
You are 100% entitled to your opinion, it still doesn't make it so.

I was referencing your opinion on what my intent was and as I stated, you could have whatever opinion you chose, however, it still would not change what my intent really was. Maybe I just didn’t spell it out far enough for you to comprehend.

If you have further issues with me I would suggest that you take them up directly with me or my Sir as hijacking another person’s thread is quite rude in my opinion.






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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 6:25:53 PM   
mantis65


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quote:

you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.


hhehe i like that

Leonidas can you give an example of how the words are being misused?

I am thinking this has to do with people calling themselves master with out owning a slave or vice versa instead of dominant or submissive. Sort of like saying you’re a husband but not having a wife.

I have heard the being the “master of your own self theory” before… but that would make me being submissive my own personal slave which is like crazy talk.
I mean I believe in self discipline but that has nothing to do with masters or slaves in a D/s or BDSM meaning.

Subs and slaves can be masters of a skill but that is out of context for what we are talking about.
Maybe people are trying to make the context way to broad?

I am dyslexic and suck at spelling and grammar but I try my best. I am always worried am using a term or word incorrectly. Anyway not disagreeing with anything just want to hear an example of the misuse.
mantis


< Message edited by mantis65 -- 2/27/2005 6:27:35 PM >

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 6:56:27 PM   
topcat


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quote:

I have heard the being the “master of your own self theory” before… but that would make me being submissive my own personal slave which is like crazy talk.
I mean I believe in self discipline but that has nothing to do with masters or slaves in a D/s or BDSM meaning.


Good Mantis-

I don't know about crazy talk- I often, when trying to start a riot, point out that that the dominant in a relationship submits to his role in the dynamic, just as much as the submissive does, and that personal mastery is something I seek in a slave.

I usually stay out of the sub/slave/master/domme threads,becuase I fall somewhat in the middle ( and as of this thread, my position has been defined far more masterfully that I could manage by M.Songbird26, and then more eruditely than I could by M. Justice<g>)-

While I do like to have some idea of what one means by a word, I do enjoy the process of discovering and understanding others meanings for the words we are sharing. I might even go so far as to say that in that process of mutual definition, we creat a common map that becomes the territory of our interaction ( I said 'might' -I have to think on that- or maybe discuss it with someone<g>).

Stay warm,
Lawrence


< Message edited by topcat -- 2/27/2005 6:57:33 PM >


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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 7:45:49 PM   
mantis65


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a slave that was out of control with thier life seems like it would be just making grief for the their master.
i know what you mean though Topcat
mantis

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/27/2005 10:44:53 PM   
GentleLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

While I do like to have some idea of what one means by a word, I do enjoy the process of discovering and understanding others meanings for the words we are sharing. I might even go so far as to say that in that process of mutual definition, we creat a common map that becomes the territory of our interaction ( I said 'might' -I have to think on that- or maybe discuss it with someone<g>).

Stay warm,
Lawrence

I feel it is crucial to understand the frame of reference the person is using. The meaning behind the terms chosen is based on a person's culture, viewpoint, and prior experiences. I have found that often two people will be saying the same thing and end up in an argument because they are using different terms to describe a concept....the same concept. When I want to have a serious indepth discussion about something My usual first step is to find mutual terminology to work with.

Gentle Lady



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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/28/2005 12:03:54 AM   
subgreg


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I am kind of split on this topic. On one hand, I think words do have meaning, and to not bother to learn their proper use shows a lack of respect for the lifestyle. I am all for people doing their own thing and defining themselves, but if you want to belong to a community you need to at least attempt to learn what it is about. On the other hand, I am much more interested in an individuals opinions and beliefs than in what they call themselves.

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/28/2005 5:33:24 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NoPinkBalloons
Lifestyle was a term that wasn't used by anyone who actually *did* wiitwd. Rather, it was a word thrown around by those who did nothing more than talk about it and dream about it. These days, though, it's commonly used by people who actually do what they're talking about.


I'm curious about this. I had never heard of *wiitwd* before I came onto collarme.com. It might be a cultural thing, but I'm wondering if anyone knows the origin of this expression and why it came about.

I've googled some but I'm mostly getting it used in context rather then a rationale.

- LA

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/28/2005 5:44:56 PM   
NoPinkBalloons


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I'm curious about this. I had never heard of *wiitwd* before I came onto collarme.com. It might be a cultural thing, but I'm wondering if anyone knows the origin of this expression and why it came about.



This is taken directly from a post by spectrum in the ssb-b archives on Dec 16, 2001 (I can't remember how to get the google archives to give the message ID, sorry):


It was common usage on ASB when I first found ASB in summer 1993, but I do
remember discussions about non-Net people not recognizing it back then. I
infer that it's of Net origin.

<snip of Ty's quoted post>


The first mention of "wiitwd" in the Archives of the Kung Foole Temple is
by Steven Davis, Jan 9th, 1995, in a summary/critique of Jon Jacobs'
theories about what was and wasn't "real" kink. Davis explicitly
attributes the term to Bill Bohrer[1], though I don't have any post in the
Archives by Bohrer on it earlier. There are some gaps in the Archives
around that time, due presumably to net propagation problems[2].

I do remember a discussion about the term that included Bohrer, with two
points: that he wanted a term that was inclusive, not prescriptive (BDSM
does not mention such areas as fetish, etc.), and that one that could be
implicitly construed as including consent.

Oh, and Bill's hair was a pink buzz cut when I last saw him, at Xmas
(1995?).

[1] aka Bill Drill, Bill Beaupre, Casper the Friendly Ghost, and Mark E.
Dassad.

[2] or possibly due to the depradations of the Two Vitos, before they
became gainfully employed by FooleCo.

--
-^-^spectrum-^^- spectrum at magenta dot com www.magenta.com/~spectrum
Archivist of the Kung Foole Temple; Director, FooleCo Black Labs


Hope that helps. :)

< Message edited by NoPinkBalloons -- 2/28/2005 5:45:41 PM >


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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/28/2005 6:21:01 PM   
stef


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Yup, it was Bill.

~stef

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