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RE: The Trouble with Words - 2/28/2005 9:03:12 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

I do remember a discussion about the term that included Bohrer, with two
points: that he wanted a term that was inclusive, not prescriptive (BDSM
does not mention such areas as fetish, etc.), and that one that could be
implicitly construed as including consent.

Thank you. I must say I'll be using it more often as I find the idea of it pretty refreshing.

- LA

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Post #: 41

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 9:22:46 AM

Alexander

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As a professional academic and student of identity politics and culture I insist that the reason we are forced to recognise this word confusion is because there is no definitive scholarly work about our cultural identity. We have hundreds of guide books and many of the SM classics seem to approach it but I don't find a real exploration of why we are choosing this cultural identity or why it might be a natural inclination among society etc.

Anyone who wants to throw some titles at me I'd love to know of any I might have missed. We need a literature review. If I am not mistaken many/most new people are being informed through fiction.

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Post #: 42

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 9:50:51 AM

onceburned

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quote:

Anyone who wants to throw some titles at me I'd love to know of any I might have missed

How about Thomas E. Murray's (the Kansas professor up on murder charges) 1989 book "The Language of Sadomasochism"

quote:

First, this is a serious pioneering work of linguistic scholarship. It is inspired by the work of David W. Maurer (Language of the Underworld, CH, Mar' 82), who believed that the study of "underworld" argot provided valuable information on the relationship of language and culture. In this instance, a most singular subgroup employing a highly unique set of special terms is being recorded.

Well, that it is part of the review done by Choice. I haven't seen the book myself, and it doesn't look like Amazon still has unused copies of it.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 3/1/2005 9:53:53 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 9:58:47 AM

topcat

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M. Alexander-

quote:

our cultural identity.

quote:

What you meanum, 'we', paleface?
-Tonto

Aye- and therein lies the rub. I often rant, both in this environ and the real world, that the root issues lies with the fact that there is no Scene, no Leather Culture, no 'Lifestyle'.

in fact, in my years of carreening down this slippery slope, I have come to believe that it is a thing rarer than known to find even a cuple that it doing this stuff for the same reasons- though , hopefully, there are a fair amount that find sufficent overlap of their desires to make it work<g>. Over the years, I have even become less and less prone to put a name to it, and have finally resorted to just refering to it as 'this stuff' for the most part. I picked up that non-label from my 'non-kinky' friends and neighbors, who tend to introduce the subject with some thing like: "you do, you know, that stuff...", and whose idea of where that line between us might be is certainly as valid as mine might be<g>.

"BDSM" I have a especial distain for, having had a relationship were, ten months into it, we realized that the core of much of our relationship issues lay the fact that she was looking for B&D, and I was looking for D/s (we did rather meet in the middle on SM), and it took us that long to arrive at this conclusion becuase we were both using the term BDSM as though it had a clear and singular meaning!

Stay Warm,
Lawrence

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Post #: 44

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 10:33:16 AM

Alexander

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I do understand what you mean, but let me use this example.. Octavio Paz was ripped to shreds for his affirmation of pachucoism (latino teen machismo identity, physical expression in zoot suits, identity from beneath the main stream, culture by rejection of colonialism etc.) but it didnt make his observations any less true. His acceptance/tolerance from the side of the patriarchy about mexican male dominance in the culture angered thousands of latinas, yet it also informed the discussion and now is universally accepted as a truth that informs even the sub cultures which reject it as a positive value system. His is only one example of a cultural identity that while a large portion of theorists hated it and the very concept of it, still helped to explain how a wide variety of people inside a culture relate to one another.

within our subculuture our ideal seems to involve a rejection of abusive ingenuine behavior, sadism for sadisms sake, give and take relative to a norm of taking only because you can and many other commonalities which seem to point to a rejection of something in the "normal culture" .

Sure people are going to want to make sure they don't get generalised as part of any one thing or theory. But its here somewhere.

Alex.

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Post #: 45

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 10:42:59 AM

topcat

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Not to confuse the map with the territory, but:

where are 'we'?

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Post #: 46

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 1:50:29 PM

TravisTJustice

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Not to confuse the map with the territory, but:

where are 'we'?

What? No acknowledgement of inflatable pool toy fetishists? Mr Ugol will be hearing from my lawyers!

Travis T.

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 2:25:16 PM

NoPinkBalloons

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Here's a list you might want to start with. It's probably not exhaustive, but it's the closest I've seen: http://links.magenta.com/~spectrum/books.htm

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Post #: 48

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 3:01:29 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

where are 'we'?

OOO!!! I'm all over that map baby! But mainly I'm on the West side, just west of the critter lovers and north of the body modders.

Interesting the fetishes there are out there huh? I'm very intrigued by the *popping plastic bag* fetish I have to say... I'm trying to wrap my head around that one. Maybe I better not.

<edit>

Actually I went back and looked and there is a whole dimension missing to this map. Voyeurism, exhibitionism, threesomes, orgies, cuckolding, etc. All things that fall under "some of the kinky things that I do" ;)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/1/2005 3:05:40 PM >

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 3:54:24 PM

Alexander

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Does every single one of those things on that map have a general position inside the greater sphere of taboo or am I reading too much into it? I guess what Im getting at rather badly is that beyond the fetish is a concious and unconcious system of identity. Its my "just because I love Italian food doesnt make me Italian, but Im still Italian" theory.

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 4:08:33 PM

LuvSponge

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quote:

ORIGINAL:... I'm very intrigued by the *popping plastic bag* fetish I have to say... I'm trying to wrap my head around that one....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...(I know someone that has that "fetish". Never will understand that one...but it's a riot to hear her laugh when she does it LOL).

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Post #: 51

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 4:57:38 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

but it's a riot to hear her laugh when she does it

When she pops the bag herself? Does it actually stimulate her? I was wondering if it wasn't one of those things where you can blindfold someone and walk around, pussyfooting and then

POP!!! and scare the crap out of them.

-LA

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Post #: 52

RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/1/2005 7:19:57 PM

MidnightWriter

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The term BDSM was originally a potmanteau term, inclusive of many related concepts. It became easy to find (thanks largely to the internet), and the community's growth (both online and in R/L) actually cheated many out of a decent education; there weren't enough teachers around to handle the incoming newbies. In the land of the totally clueless, the one-clued person reigns. The terms "dominant", "master/mistress", and "top" came to be synonomous. Common usage reinforced the sloppy definitions, and now the words are largely meaningless.

Keep in mind, this is a culture that celebrated the Millenium one year early, despite many people saying, as loudly as they could, that 2000 was the end of the 20th century, with 2001 being the beginning of the 21st. Accuracy is no longer as important to people as it once was.

Add in a social environment in which it's rude to disagree with someone's self-definition. If Alphonse claims to be an experienced dominant because of his skill with a riding crop, and Matilda claims to be a slave because she always remembers to C/capitalize P/properly, anyone who disputes this will be widely seen as rude and clueless.

<sigh> There's no cure for any of this that I can see - but I had to get that off of my chest. I've been beleagured by the self-identified of late.

FWIW, in some circles, the portmanteau term has become BDSMnopq - signifying BDSM plus other kinks that aren't really BDSM, but travel well with, such as ageplay, genderplay, and fashion fetishes.

(Press send or delete? Press send or delete? Oh, hell.....)

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/2/2005 2:17:29 PM

BlouLady

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WOW!

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/8/2005 5:07:20 PM

LuvSponge

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I've decided that, upon careful consideration, and knowing full well my own depraved little proclivities, that if I end up being married to a woman who only occasionally (but in rapid repitition) mouths the words "cuckold, cuckold, cuckold, cuckold...." over and over and over again...while it may not actually be enough...it'll probably keep me light headed for at least 3 hours a day hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

(Yes, I know....I need help).

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RE: The Trouble with Words - 3/8/2005 5:10:20 PM

LuvSponge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

but it's a riot to hear her laugh when she does it

When she pops the bag herself? Does it actually stimulate her? I was wondering if it wasn't one of those things where you can blindfold someone and walk around, pussyfooting and then

POP!!! and scare the crap out of them.

-LA