RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/7/2005 10:12:02 AM)

quote:

Unless, of course, you are looking for specific, intimate, and perhaps a bit kinky details...well, you'll have to buy me a few drinks before I'll be willing to spill those. *wink*


yer on! there has to be a bar in Vegas(or LA) worth patronizing with our collective presence.

quote:

#3. Define slave. unfortunately, we can't seem to come to a concensus on that one, so for the sake of the question that you are posing--what do YOU mean when YOU say slave?
#4. Define Master. (see #3 and substitute the word Master for slave)
#5. Define husband. His role as part of the aforementioned "marriage" has not been outlined, so it would be impossible to even guess without first knowing what sort of "husband" he is.


thank you for answering the above questions with:
quote:

I am saying to Celestia, "I think it is in your best interest to keep your marriage healthy and happy. I give my word to see that my requirements on your service do not make that impossible." Celestia is saying to her husband, "I want our relationship to be healthy and happy, so I will find a Master who wants that too." Her husband is saying, "I want to be healthily and happily married to you, so I will trust you to find the right Master."


what this slave is getting from it as it has been explained since the original question, is that everyone is aware of everyone else and is in full agreement with the arrangement, the real question here is if other Masters and/or Owners in this community here will consider her to be an Owned slave. this slave can't presume to speak for Master, and as He has already given His opinion, doesn't feel the need to reiterate it, but as vague as your situation is, it is hard for this slave to understand how all that plays out in real life. as you stated previously, we will have to wait for the CollarMe get together in May before we can have a few drinks and get to details.

We can debate forever if poly relationships work or if affairs are always destined to fail(even if the marriage survives)---Life is too short---this slave's existance is a bit hypocritical to those who believe "affairs of the heart" outside of a marriage are immoral in that this slave's parents were the affair on both sides of the equation--they each left their respective unknowing spouses to get a loaf of bread one day and never returned, ran to Nevada for divorces and got married. they remained happily so for 38 years, unashamedly devoted to one another..and this slave is a product of their love.

but back to the idea of being considered by others
quote:

...Do you think that a married woman can be considered a slave to a Master if he is not her husband?

quote:

2) Considered by whom... Masters here on the forum, who wish to voice there opinions, really.


this is akin to those that are having strictly online M/s relationships coming onto the forum and asking if the Masters here, online or real-life Masters, will consider them to be "real" slaves or "truly" owned. then a big discussion ensues about what is real, and what is true and definitions fly in all directions with the end result being either a resounding NO, mostly from those who live this in their real lives and don't "get" the online thing, or a vehement YES, from those who are of the "live and let live, more power to ya, call it whatever you want, if it works for you, great" variety. asking for verification or consideration from those who view it the same way as you is preaching to the converted.



angelinbondage -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/7/2005 3:14:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: celestia

quote:

....so, i'd say, no, you can't really have your cake and eat it too....


If this is the case, then how does one that is in a vanilla marriage fulfill that need to serve? Are we left to suffer and be unfulfilled? I can't see this being good for the marriage either.


This is why you end the marriage instead of cheating on your spouse.

I can accept pretty damn near much anything in this lifestyle, but the one thing I cannot seem to work my mind around is the concept of infidelity. The lying and backstabbing necessary to cheat on your significant other seems totally contradictory to the entire idea of D/s. (Notice I said, D/s, not kinky sex.)



craftywulf -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/7/2005 4:22:29 PM)

As a married man i know i couldent serve two women and would never try because it wouldent be fair to anyone.I do have someone who i would concider serving if things were diffrent but my loyality will always be with my wife as my domna sis would want it to be so no i think to give yourself compleatly to to serve someone NO you cant be married.



craftywulf -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/7/2005 4:39:01 PM)

As a married man i couldent serve my wife and a mystress at the same time it wouldent be fair to eather and its not what i would want or them.I do have somone in my life i would concider serving if things were diffrent but they arnt and my loyality will always remain with my wife as i know my domna sis would want it to be.Hmmmmmmmmmm somtimes its hard to be honest but i



DocWatson -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/12/2005 10:27:55 AM)

I'm the FNG, so I'll keep it short.

The reality for some of us is that we have 'nilla spouses, successful careers, excellent families, positions of responsibility in the Church and Society, along with a whole collection of years of 'nilla life; then we woke up and found that we weren't 'weird', 'freaks', or subject to DSM-3. We also weren't ready to throw out our marriages, our kids' lives, our careers, and our social positions and contacts over a driving need to dominate - or submit to - another person

So we have three choices; Practice the lifestyle covertly, practice it openly and risk divorce and the loss of *everything* we have worked so hard for, or suffer.

Somehow, I think that rational adults who understand the mechanics of the real world would be able to accomodate each other within clearly defined, and mutually agreeable, consensual limits. I am open about my married status and I will let someone who can be rational and objective about it judge for themselves as to whether or not they want to be friends, advisors, or playmates or, best of all, all three.



Leonidas -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/13/2005 6:35:55 AM)

Hello DocWatson

quote:

The reality for some of us is that we have 'nilla spouses, successful careers, excellent families, positions of responsibility in the Church and Society, along with a whole collection of years of 'nilla life; then we woke up and found that we weren't 'weird', 'freaks', or subject to DSM-3. We also weren't ready to throw out our marriages, our kids' lives, our careers, and our social positions and contacts over a driving need to dominate - or submit to - another person


What you're saying is that you'd like to have your cake and eat it too. No news there. If you can't have it ethically, you're not above sneaking around to have it. Not until you're caught comes the tearful Jimmy Swaggart-esque "I have sinned" speech.

quote:

So we have three choices; Practice the lifestyle covertly, practice it openly and risk divorce and the loss of *everything* we have worked so hard for, or suffer.


Every single human on the planet has the choice to live ethically, or not. Some folks would argue that how you behave when you have hard choices to make is what makes you a man, or not. That it (manhood) wouldn't have anything to do with what status in the church and financial success you've managed to attain by an ability to represent yourself as something that you are not. What you are describing is a hard choice. What will you do?

quote:

Somehow, I think that rational adults who understand the mechanics of the real world would be able to accomodate each other within clearly defined, and mutually agreeable, consensual limits. I am open about my married status and I will let someone who can be rational and objective about it judge for themselves as to whether or not they want to be friends, advisors, or playmates or, best of all, all three.


Are you open with your spouse too, or just the object of your D/s interest? What you are describing doesn't often work, and the abiliy to be rational has little to do with it. These kinds of deceptions tend to blow up in the end, and when they do it is far more devistating than it would have been had it been addressed ethically to begin with. The reason is simple. Most people have a sense of right and wrong. Doing something on the sly which, if it came to light, would make your spouse reassess your relationship is wrong, and most folks know it, and can't really be happy doing it. The only people who can happily engage like that for any length of time tend to be sociopathic and narcissistic. They have no real sense of right and wrong. They simply learn how to behave as to be accepted by and achieve their aims vis a vis associates, family, and church because in the end what they want is all that really matters to them and they'll do what they need to do, say what they need to say, and behave (at least overtly and superficially) the way they need to behave to get it.

It has been argued by others on this thread that the notion that some things are right, and other things are wrong has no place in the BDSM world. That we should be accepting of the choices of others to the point where any action is just as ethical as any other action. I don't think so. I think that ethics are more important in this life than they are in the "vanilla" world because we don't have the bright lines of what our parents taught us to rely upon. That is just my opinion, and admittedly, a minority opinion here on Collarme.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/13/2005 8:10:15 AM)

quote:

'nilla spouses, successful careers, excellent families, positions of responsibility in the Church and Society


Doc,
Is this you? It sounds exactly like the first paragraph description of the background of the BTK serial killer. Your comments imply that anyone living this lifestyle is excluded from a successful career, excellent families, and positions of responsibility. You give a good excuse for the priests accused of pedophilia. If they came out and sought help they would have lost their community status and their righteous "moral" image. I'm sure the church supported that position in lieu of it affecting their collection plates. Michael Jackson can use this same excuse for ultimately the same reason - the bottom line.

Isn't the bottom line your ultimate excuse. You can say you are "protecting" your spouse, your children, your community status, but really you're protecting yourself. Your spouse and children would still have to be supported by you. You may have to live on less, not up to your current 'standards'. Work, unless it's in the public sector shouldn't be effected. I don't show up for work in my leathers with a riding crop hanging from my belt loop. I know of few in the lifestyle who do.

Sometimes society or family pressures dictate our life path. Marriage, and kids are rights of passage fulfilling goals others set for middle class America. Did it - Done it!

Repression of ones true self breeds physiological problems. BTK may be the worst case example, but the minimal consequence is mental infidelity and moral hypocrisy. You can lie to everyone else, but the person in the mirror knows the truth.



MasterDaddyBreed -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/13/2005 1:19:11 PM)

I don't know how other Master's handle this type of situation.

I'm a Poly Master. And a Alpha Male. If the wife becomes My slave she is MINE...period. The husband looses his rights to her. He (or she) now has to have My permission to do ANYTHING. SHE IS MY PROPERTY. She became My slave generally out of both of their consents. I do have one slave who became My slave on her own. She says her husband was a wimp. She wanted a Master. She braught her daughter as well. I OWN THEM. Husband has no rights to either of them. Husband agrees...shows no aggression.

When A wife wants to be a full 24/7 slave, she is giving ALL her rights ( or anyone elses) to ME.

This is how it is in My Stable.
MasterDaddyBreeder



DocWatson -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/13/2005 1:37:06 PM)

M
quote:

Repression of ones true self breeds physiological problems. BTK may be the worst case example, but the minimal consequence is mental infidelity and moral hypocrisy. You can lie to everyone else, but the person in the mirror knows the truth.


Agreed and there is NOTHING I'd like better than have mrs w wake up and want me to paddle the white off her butt, call me 'Sir' and be my complete slave 24/7. Been There and Tried That. I wrote about the outcome in another post.

Again, three choices and all of them suck.

The sad part - and the truth is - is that I am not alone in this.



ProtagonistLily -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/13/2005 2:04:59 PM)

quote:

Mquote:

Repression of ones true self breeds physiological problems. BTK may be the worst case example, but the minimal consequence is mental infidelity and moral hypocrisy. You can lie to everyone else, but the person in the mirror knows the truth.

Agreed and there is NOTHING I'd like better than have mrs w wake up and want me to paddle the white off her butt, call me 'Sir' and be my complete slave 24/7. Been There and Tried That. I wrote about the outcome in another post.

Again, three choices and all of them suck.

The sad part - and the truth is - is that I am not alone in this.


Honor....truth...integrity. Not an option??

Lily



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/14/2005 7:27:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Honor....truth...integrity. Not an option??


Tolerance...understanding...acceptance. Not an option??

I imagine you would not argue that it is a lack of honor, truth, or integrity when a person keeps certain aspects of their life unknown to others in their life. People in the public eye, in particular, can live quite a double life. Some draw the line at their constituancy, others draw the line at their spouses. For one to chastize the other for a lack of honor, truth or integrity seems a bit hypocritical.

For others, such as Merc and beth, who are open to one and all, I would simply ask that they understand that not all have the strength they do to swim upstream. I have lived the life described by DocWatson, and although I could not continue living that way, I understand that it is not always the best thing to leave.

Taggard



Mercnbeth -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/14/2005 1:53:21 PM)

quote:

Tolerance...understanding...acceptance. Not an option??


Taggard,
Tolerance - YES
Understanding - YES
Acceptance - NO

"Two out of there ain't bad?"

Do I have no problem hanging out with them? No. In my warped mind if I gave unconditional acceptance I'd be denying something I strongly believe. I'm not prepared to give that up. My beliefs are too entrenched.

I come at this with some perspective. I was in an intolerable marriage, I lived that lie because I rationalized I was doing it for my kids. I wore my wedding ring like a kind of hair-shirt to punish myself for being foolish, naive, and young. I came to a point in my life that the 6 figure salary, and all the rest that went with it was not as important. I didn't cheat - I left. And I left an "open - marriage", what ever the hell that meant.

You want a story, try this one. I met my ex at a dungeon party in NYC. So it surprised the hell out of me when on my honeymoon she stated that (and this is a direct quote); "I hope to hell you've gotten that sick kinky shit out of your system!" I almost jumped out the window of the Fairmount honeymoon suite hearing that! But I was supposed to be of the age to be "responsible". Five years and two kids later, and I could have been the vanilla family poster child. Put all the energy into work and career. Just to keep me teased every so often my wife would break out the old cuffs/clips/whips and be waiting for me under the covers when I came home late. The other common theme for those nights was she was under the influence of something.

Finally one night I happened to have business in the neighborhood of the old Hell Fire club on a Friday and didn't leave until Sunday. No, I didn't play or cheat, I just had fun again with old friends who wondered what the hell happened to me. I told my wife that this lifestyle was too much a part of me and I had to have it, and live it, even if it meant not having her. At first she played along but another day of reckoning came when she said she no longer wanted any part of it, and I should go alone, have fun, WITH her full knowledge and "approval".

That lasted another few years, but ultimately I couldn't stand living that lie. There was something missing from every encounter, every "relationship". The part that was missing was the part I couldn't give because of how I still felt obligated. (Damn that Catholic Guilt upbringing!) So I let it go. I cut all ties and pretense and gave up everything of monetary value to be emotionally and mentally "rich". I don't have as much, most likely never will. It was anything but EASY. There were a lot of tears and lonely nights from everyone involved. But I don't shy away from a mirror either.

I have no resentment for people who have a covert life. The fact that they think their situation is unique and irreconcilable though should be re-thought.

May 22nd can't come quick enough. Until then I'll continue to swim upstream.

Merc "The Salmon"



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/14/2005 2:05:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Tolerance...understanding...acceptance. Not an option??


Taggard,
Tolerance - YES
Understanding - YES
Acceptance - NO

"Two out of there ain't bad?"


I think you know that I very much respect and admire your lifestyle choice. I have made a similar one for myself. I also understand the difficulty in accepting those who do not have the strength to make the hard choices we have made in disolving families so that we could persue this life without cheating or lying or being dishonerable.

Yet, I really feel that in accepting those who have not the strength to make those choices, we can help them, from a position of friend, find it.

Bottom line...two out of three works for me. I try, not always that successfully, for three...

Taggard



Alexander -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/14/2005 3:01:30 PM)

Couple things I am thinking about to add to this. We’re beginning to talk about tolerance and acceptance I think when we talk about tolerance we use terms so broad they can be made to fit any situation. Tolerance however is never absolute. Tolerance is tempered by time, by permanence which in turn determines acceptance. We are what we do, not; we are what we did once.

The permanence of an ethical violation does to some extent quantify it. Example, X has cheated on his spouse and realizes his ethical violation, immediately corrects it and vows never to repeat it. Z has cheated on his spouse, yet continues to do so with no moderation or effort to change the behavior.

In one situation above we have a man contemplating the complexity of correcting his ethical violation. He flirts with justifying it yet without the context of time, (how long will his spouse be deceived, how long will he debate before acting) we the outside observers can not know whether he is unethical by nature or simply facing an ethical challenge he is about to surmount. Technically, we as the observers and potential peer group for this individual do provide him tolerance. We provide tolerance enough not to reject him automatically from the peer group while providing clear feedback that ethical violations are still ethical violations.

And here’s the other thing I am thinking we should think about.

Contempt.
Contempt is the number one destructive force in human relationships. At some point, repeatedly violating the trust of a spouse without their knowledge is contempt for them and I do not believe you can have contempt for someone even secretly without it destroying that relationship. In the same vein, living a life of repeated ethical violation one in which you justify and seek to maintain that personal facade becomes contempt for yourself. No one should argue that people who make unethical decisions and actions in their own context deserve no tolerance or compassion but the distinguishing element of that tolerance ought to be in my opinion, are these unethical behaviors circumstantial, and what are you going to do about them?


Alex. Restating the obvious as usual.



trinimaster1 -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/20/2005 6:13:08 PM)

YES, my first slave discovered her sub side while being around me and having noticed that I proceeded to train her and make her into my slave. In the process, she retained her freedom to express herself in her role as wife and mother, but with my full knowledge and consent on what were her limits with her husband. I continued to own and control her totally and she was my slave 24/7 in spirit but not physically. Her previous life was now plain vanilla, and she was now my slave. It is possible to exercise control over someone to the point of complete ownership, with appropriate concessions to allow the lifestyle to work. I do admit that the slave does have significant problems rationalizing things in the beginning.



sweetpettjenny -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/26/2005 6:09:11 AM)

I have always lived life with my own set of morals and beliefs...as should each of us. I firmly believe that as a slave myself it is soo hard to give all that i am to one person/owner, that i can't imagine going from vanilla to slave in a matter of hours... I am going to go as far as to say , you can't turn on and off being a slave if you are true to what you are . (hides in the corner) Don't wanna upset anyone...just my two cents.



celestia -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (3/26/2005 9:43:37 AM)

sweetpettjenny,

I agree with you, that you can not turn your slave nature off. Mine is always present, but at times it must be subdued due to life circumstances. I believe this is true for any slave living in the real world, otherwise we would see a lot more ppl out there wearng collars and being lead around on leashes, then we already do.

I thank everyone that has taken a part in this thread, and I do realize that there is a wide range of opinions on this topic, along with most other topics discussed here on the boards. We have to do what works for us. An me proclaiming my nature as a slave still holds true, married or not.
I know what I desire and how I wish to acheive those desires, the fact that I have a partner that does not wish to be involved is not an obstacle for me, although I can see it being that way for some.

As I continue to say in a lot of my posts, open honest communication in all is key to reaching your goals in this lifestyle or any other.

Thanks again all.
Cel



kneelnu -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (8/3/2005 4:43:15 PM)

ok was not going to but this is yet another time a agree with emerald. and i personaly know 2 slaves that are married and owed but another. it just means that there is enuff respect between them to know that there is something one needs and desires that the owner is not wanting or willing to give personaly orrrrrrr that the slave has desires to sever in the lifestyle yet found a life partner that she wishes to make a life with and he (the nilla husband) accepting that the wifes desire to serve someone that might be understnading into the needs of said slave. but i have seen it work and seen it not work so is it ok thats to each to decide how can i say one kinky you like is not ok yet turn around and defend a kinky i might be into and like and not grant the likes and dislikes that makes each person and relationship different
i guess all i can say is if you can find the ones willing to make it work and put into it whats needed then rock on and enjoy


yet another rant
kneel



Kindred2Evil -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (8/3/2005 8:47:17 PM)

Okay, I'm going to add my two cents here. I'm married, quite happily I might add, to a dominant. I'm a dominant female. We are both currently searching for submissives of our own or even one we could share. Neither of us cares if the submissive is married, so long as their SO knows about us and what we do and what their partner wants to do. My marriage is valuable to me, there is no way on Goddess's green Planet I am going to leave my husband for someone else, it's just not going to happen. It doesn't lessen my love for my submissive or for my husband to have them both. What makes this work for us is communication. Hubby and I talk about EVERYTHING, we talk things out until we are both either comfortable with it or willing to let it go. Neither of us is willing or able to submit to the other, so why not find someone who is? It doesn't take away from our relationship, it enhances it. I'm a happy person, I'm happier when I have a submissive. I can live without one (proof positive of this is I've been looking for a year now), but I enjoy having one. My husband enjoys seeing me happy.
The point is, if all parties involved know about each other and they have no problem with it...where's the big deal?
I rather resent some of the posts I've read on here about how the marriage is all but doomed to fail, what utter nonsense. We've been together for 4 years, nearly 5 now and we're still going strong.
Don't judge other people simply because you couldn't place yourself in that situation and be happy. If it works, it works, if it doesn't, don't do it. I think married's have just as much right to search elsewhere for their submissives or dominants as do singles.


*The you's stated here are general, not intended for any one particular source.



BittersweetLila -> RE: Married slaves, can they be owned? (8/3/2005 10:06:03 PM)

quote:

A third party's rights, opinions and feelings would always be considered by the 'slave' in making certain important decisions.


By this definition, as a mother, I could never be a true slave. I will swear complete submission to a Master, but "third parties" (my children) rights, opinions and feelings will always have to be considered by me when making important decisions.

I think a lot of people on these boards, especially subs, confuse love and romance with D/s. I, for one, could have love in a primary household relationship -- where we raise the kids, do family stuff, etc, in other words build a life, while totally finding my sexual/spiritual fulfillment in submission to another. Perhaps my Master doesn't technically "own" me in the sense most on this board seem to want in a Master/slave relationship, but he commands me and owns me in body, mind and soul,



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