RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down

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SirDominic -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/24/2007 7:58:57 AM)
hisannabelle, I don't think anyone has said that the Old Guard style is the be all and end all. Or that, if you aren't Old Guard, your lifestyle is watered down. You correctly point out that Old Guard is just one style amongst many, most all being valid. prettichinadoll, I both agree and disagree with you. I agree in the sense that whatever level two people choose is good for them, if that is what makes them comfortable. Live and let live. If they are happy, who's to knock that. My issue comes with the dangerous attitude change (at least here in the US) over the last decade or so. The idea that one has an intrinsic right to believe whatever they want to believe, whether it is based on any facts or not. This head in the sand way of life has led to the great polarization of this society. The truth is that the truth isn't what someone arbitrarily decides it is. Take this philosophy to its extreme and we end up with a President who has brought us into a pointless war, that has resulted in the deaths & maiming of thousands of Americans, and more than 150,000+ (mostly) innocent Iraqies. IF BDSM is to have any meaning, there has to be some truisms to define that meaning. Otherwise the term no longer has ANY meaning. Namaste, Sir Dominic

adaddysgirl -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/24/2007 8:31:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic BDSM has certainly changed almost beyond recognition with the huge influx of newcomers entering the lifestyle since the Internet really took off. Like the OP, I get the sense that a lot of the people on here are really just looking for a committed relationship (i.e., marriage) with someone who has similar kinks to their own. Regardless of what relationship i venture into, i am hoping for permanent, with or without marriage. And yes, i am definitely looking for a partner with similar kinks....why wouldn't i? And i am also looking for a partner who shares similar values, goals, etc....even limits. So i am looking for a committed relationship, with someone who has similar kinks...and more. Monogamous, yes. Permanent, yes. Marriage, maybe. So what does that mean? Should they be considered to be in a BDSM relationship? (I know someone will respond "If they say they are, then they are". I do not buy that argument). And who is to determine that? You? Joe Schmo next door? Who? i see you are married to a vanilla (or something similar)....yet seek a LT intimate D/s relationship (but not 24/7 obviously). So are you (will you be) considered in a BDSM relationship should you find what you are looking for? So i suppose marriage and finding similar kink would not enter into your search since you are already married. And permanency? Well, if someone wants to spend the rest of their life with a partner who may never be 24/7....i guess there are those out there too. Or will a play partner do? And do you think you are really looking for something so different than "a lot of people on here"? Many subs have gotten very demanding on what they will or won't accept; even down to a 15 point (or more) checklist. Negotiation has always been a part of the lifestyle for a lot of people, but this concept of a list of requirements just to be considered to be their Dom does seem a relatively new phenomenon. Can someone really be considered submissive if a Dom has to jump through all their requirement hoops to be considered? Most Masters I know personally would sneer at such an attitude. i am finding more and more doms who are glad that subs are stating their 'requirements' up front. Seems it leads to a lot less misunderstanding and needless unions/break ups down the road. So i guess i'm just not getting what point you are tying to make here. On the other hand, life is change. What was once the lifestyle is no more. Are we worse off because of that? Does it really matter? I think it does only in the sense that if one is looking for a more "traditional" BDSM relationship, that has become a lot harder. And do you consider what you seek...given your situation....a traditional bdsm relationship? Or are you seeking the watered down version? DG

SimplyMichael -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/24/2007 8:36:16 AM)
When will people get that if you don't have a cock and suck cock and are old or dead, you ain't old guard? It is about as stupid as saying I am a Dyke because I am a Top who likes sucking on cunts

Amaros -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/24/2007 9:16:47 AM)
Old Guard, as far as I can tell, refers to a specific historical period -if you weren't there during that period, you aren't Old Guard. At the same time, there are traditions associated with it that are no doubt kept alive by certain individuals, the difference being you still aren't "Old Guard", but you do follow Old Guard traditions, whatever they happen to be, and you can argue that amongst yourselves. I don't believe this is saying it's better or worse, it it's jsut a certain way of doing things, and I don't think it implies any greater degree of "authenticity" or "legitimacy", or whatever it is that supposed to be implied other than a particular style. During the old Guard period, there were no doubt many other people doing many different things, they just didn't write a book about it. I learned about BDSM as a lifestyle through Victorian fiction, so that colors my view of the whole thing - naturally I have different assumptions and associations than somebody who came by it through another source.

Squeakers -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/24/2007 10:34:32 AM)
After almost 2 decades as a submissive, I think by this time I'd realize it if I were Domme.

dreamscape -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/24/2007 3:07:27 PM)
Snorts........I do not call making a statement, an accusation. This is just beating a dead horse, and I have better things to do.

SirDominic -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/25/2007 9:00:58 AM)
My, my, my, what a barrage. Since this was directed solely at me, I tried to respond to you privately, adaddysgirl, but for some reason I could not pull up your profile. quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic BDSM has certainly changed almost beyond recognition with the huge influx of newcomers entering the lifestyle since the Internet really took off. Like the OP, I get the sense that a lot of the people on here are really just looking for a committed relationship (i.e., marriage) with someone who has similar kinks to their own. Regardless of what relationship i venture into, i am hoping for permanent, with or without marriage. And yes, i am definitely looking for a partner with similar kinks....why wouldn't i? And i am also looking for a partner who shares similar values, goals, etc....even limits. So i am looking for a committed relationship, with someone who has similar kinks...and more. Monogamous, yes. Permanent, yes. Marriage, maybe. So what does that mean? Should they be considered to be in a BDSM relationship? (I know someone will respond "If they say they are, then they are". I do not buy that argument). And who is to determine that? You? Joe Schmo next door? Who? Read my last post, #121. i see you are married to a vanilla (or something similar)....yet seek a LT intimate D/s relationship (but not 24/7 obviously). So are you (will you be) considered in a BDSM relationship should you find what you are looking for? What does 24/7 have to do with anything? Are you saying that if one is not 24/7, the relationship is not valid? So i suppose marriage and finding similar kink would not enter into your search since you are already married. And permanency? Well, if someone wants to spend the rest of their life with a partner who may never be 24/7....i guess there are those out there too. Or will a play partner do? And do you think you are really looking for something so different than "a lot of people on here"? Again, what does my marriage have to do with anything? You seem to belittle any LT relationship that isn't going to become 24/7. As if the relationship is somehow cheapened. Actually, I am amused as this is the first time I have been taken to task for being honest about my situation. With all the complaints about men who lie, try to hide their marriage to get a sub, I would have thought my being up front would be seen as a point in my favor.' Many subs have gotten very demanding on what they will or won't accept; even down to a 15 point (or more) checklist. Negotiation has always been a part of the lifestyle for a lot of people, but this concept of a list of requirements just to be considered to be their Dom does seem a relatively new phenomenon. Can someone really be considered submissive if a Dom has to jump through all their requirement hoops to be considered? Most Masters I know personally would sneer at such an attitude. i am finding more and more doms who are glad that subs are stating their 'requirements' up front. Seems it leads to a lot less misunderstanding and needless unions/break ups down the road. So i guess i'm just not getting what point you are tying to make here. Ummm, okay. Obviously our experiences in this matter have been quite different. On the other hand, life is change. What was once the lifestyle is no more. Are we worse off because of that? Does it really matter? I think it does only in the sense that if one is looking for a more "traditional" BDSM relationship, that has become a lot harder. And do you consider what you seek...given your situation....a traditional bdsm relationship? Or are you seeking the watered down version? DG Actually, I have recently found a potential slave who wants to be in a traditional BDSM relationship with me. She knows my situation, and also knows that she will not be neglected. In her words, "A part time, long term relationship with you as my Master is infinitely preferable to a 24/7 one with the kind of jerks who have been contacting me". Yes it will be a real BDSM relationship. She wants to be my slave, and I have accepted her to see if we are compatible. In all my previous fetish encounters, it has always been Dom/sub. This is the first where the compatibility seems to be there for a Master/slave commitment. It is always hard to judge intent by reading words on a screen, so I can't be sure of your intent. That being said, some of your wording suggests you are quite offended by my original words. Which is strange, since your whole point, if I understand you correctly, was my intolerance. Seems like the pot calling the kettle black to me. Namaste, Sir Dominic

adaddysgirl -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/25/2007 12:18:46 PM)
i don't have a lot of time to put in to this right now as i am on my way out but let me start with a few questions. i will bold what i am referencing. quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic Like the OP, I get the sense that a lot of the people on here are really just looking for a committed relationship (i.e., marriage) with someone who has similar kinks to their own. Should they be considered to be in a BDSM relationship? (I know someone will respond "If they say they are, then they are". I do not buy that argument). So what would you like to call someone who is looking for marriage, or a committed relationship with someone who has similar kinks? Vanilla? Non-BDSM? Since you can so freely state that 'a lot of people on here' are looking for that, and wondering if they should be considered BDSM, perhaps you have another definition of that. (And of course you do not buy that they are because they say they are.) So what are they then? And exactly what is it that they should be looking for on a BDSM site such as this? Non-kink? Only casual relationships? So what constitutes a BDSM relationship by your standards? What does 24/7 have to do with anything? Are you saying that if one is not 24/7, the relationship is not valid? Never said a thing like that. Marriage is a 24/7 relationship. i was making reference to your saying that so many on here are just looking for marriage with kink....so perhaps that does not qualify them as BDSM. i used 24/7 in that context. Again, what does my marriage have to do with anything? You seem to belittle any LT relationship that isn't going to become 24/7. As if the relationship is somehow cheapened. Actually, I am amused as this is the first time I have been taken to task for being honest about my situation. With all the complaints about men who lie, try to hide their marriage to get a sub, I would have thought my being up front would be seen as a point in my favor.' You mentioned marriage like there was something wrong with those looking for marriage and kink. So is there something wrong with that....or is it just not BDSM in your eyes? Many subs have gotten very demanding on what they will or won't accept; even down to a 15 point (or more) checklist. Negotiation has always been a part of the lifestyle for a lot of people, but this concept of a list of requirements just to be considered to be their Dom does seem a relatively new phenomenon. Can someone really be considered submissive if a Dom has to jump through all their requirement hoops to be considered? Most Masters I know personally would sneer at such an attitude. Ummm, okay. Obviously our experiences in this matter have been quite different. Well i would say so. i had a list of requirements on my profile which i had many 'offers' on. And was even contacted by several doms who although were not compatible with me, told me they found my profile 'quite refreshing'...that someone actually knows what they want. Believe it or not, if anyone on here lists their requirements, someone who is compatible with that will not feel like they are jumping through hoops. And MOST Masters would sneer at that? Again, something obviously concluded by your standards. And can a sub be considered a sub....? Again, you seem to have some definitive standards on what constitutes a marriage and kink relationship as far as BDSM goes, subs who are 'demanding', and what most Masters think of that. Actually, I have recently found a potential slave who wants to be in a traditional BDSM relationship with me. She knows my situation, and also knows that she will not be neglected. In her words, "A part time, long term relationship with you as my Master is infinitely preferable to a 24/7 one with the kind of jerks who have been contacting me". So....what exactly constitutes a traditional BDSM relationship? And really, i hope that all works out well with you. i can only say that 'most' subs i have talked with end up wanting more than a married dom can give them (unless they are just looking for a play partner or course). Yes it will be a real BDSM relationship. She wants to be my slave, and I have accepted her to see if we are compatible. In all my previous fetish encounters, it has always been Dom/sub. This is the first where the compatibility seems to be there for a Master/slave commitment. It is always hard to judge intent by reading words on a screen, so I can't be sure of your intent. That being said, some of your wording suggests you are quite offended by my original words. Which is strange, since your whole point, if I understand you correctly, was my intolerance. Seems like the pot calling the kettle black to me. i take exception to you wanting to define what a BDSM relationship is. If you knew me better, you would see that i could care less what type of relationship anyone is in....casual, LD, LT, marriage...whatever. And they can call themselves whatever they want. It really is not i who am trying to set some standard for those relationships. Perhaps you have an issue with someone looking for marriage because in your situation, that could not work for you. However, that does not indicate that someone who is looking for that plus the kink is not BDSM. Or perhaps your answers to what i asked above will clarify this better for me. DG

SirDominic -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/26/2007 10:08:40 AM)
DG, I hate it when two people have gotten into a long running debate that hijacks the thread, so I'm not willing to do it myself here. I'm glad to debate these points with you, off the boards. Why is it again that I cannot pull up your profile?????? Namaste, Sir Dominic

AquaticSub -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/26/2007 10:21:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thaimeeuppppp If I thought i could run my own life effectively i would not want a Master. If you can't run your life effectively, why do you think they will want you?

dawntreader -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/26/2007 10:58:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spankmepink11 I think worrying about who's the Dom/sub'liest of them all , and the need for external sources of validation are the reasons people seem to concern themselves so much with how others view their personal orientation/dynamic. Whether someone is "Old Guard" "high protocol" gorean....whatever, none of this has any effect on the dynamic i seek, let alone any future relationship, nor will my own views on BDSM relationships affect how others live their dynamic. Things do evolve as well as people, and BDSM has become a much broader entity than it once might have been. But so what? Is that a bad thing? Does the way i choose to express my kink or orientation have any effect whatsoever on how any of you live/express your own? Of course not. So...lets pass out the participation trophies...all do our personal best, and not worry about whose best is best . P.S. to Lotus , some of the yummiest dishes can emerge from fiddling a little with the ingredients. [;)] Very well said...i think ego comes into play with the need for external validation.

adaddysgirl -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/26/2007 10:58:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirDominic DG, I hate it when two people have gotten into a long running debate that hijacks the thread, so I'm not willing to do it myself here. I'm glad to debate these points with you, off the boards. Why is it again that I cannot pull up your profile?????? Namaste, Sir Dominic Actually, i really don't see it as much of a hijack since it does relate to what constitutes a BDSM relationship. Exactly what is a traditional BDSM relationship as opposed to a watered down one? i'm sure you get the gist of what i am asking here. i do feel that you made some strong proclamations (as noted in both of my posts) and question the basis of your conclusions. i deactivated my profile around the holidays last year because i had (and still have) a lot going on that needs tending to and didn't feel i had the proper time to devote to a potential partner. i really don't get on the other side much now, particularly since i can't get mail with my profile deactivated. You obviously do not have to answer my inquiries at all but i'm just hoping that you realize that your definitions of BDSM....or standards of what constitutes a BDSM relationship.....might not be the same as others'....and that yes, they can call it what they want because that is what it means to them (whether you 'buy that' or not). DG

dawntreader -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/26/2007 11:01:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mbes If I am riding a bike for my own pleasure and enjoyment, then it matters only to me how fast I go, how far I ride, and how many times I fall off the damn bike. If I am riding a bike in hopes of getting a trophy, then I'd best be better, faster, more skilled than the other bike riders. The same is true for every other endeavor in life. Who are you doing it for? If it's for the world to see and judge, you'd best be better, more skilled than the other participants. If it is only for you and yours, then those are the only standards that matter. Bravo!!

dawntreader -> RE: I wonder if modern day BDSM has become watered down (1/26/2007 11:37:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll I don't know...I mean...Gosh...I was in shock reading this. So...we are the sneakier sex...and we're the reason for the down fall of civilization? gosh, as far as I know, without women, there won't be any civilization! Anyway, I guess all the OP wants to say is "My kink is better than your kink!" Every one has their own way to do BDSM, and as long as they don't hurt anyone, they're free to do whatever they want with their life. There's no "The" way of doing BDSM, there's only many different individual ways. Since it's unique, you can't compaire them and say, OK this is more "DS", that's more "vanilla", and HEY! since you don't do DS the way I do, you can't use the titel "DS" to discribe your lifestyle! That title is Mine to define, and it's for my use only (and very few privileged, sellected people that agree with me). I start to get sick of this. We're already minority compare to the mainstream culture, yet still we attack, exclusive each other. We're different, yet we can't accept differences. What's up with that? Anyway...If I'm not "slave-like" because I have an opinion, because I have a brain, because I think, or simply because I'm a woman, well...I don't really want to be this "submissive" or "slave" defined by you anyway. i agree with every word of your post!

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