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RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 2:27:26 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Most companies have off the shelf designs and most people have conservative tastes but its only the architect and the initial design that costs. If designs are mass produced they get cheaper. Actually this was on BBC only last week.


So building materials are free? Last time I looked at buying property the costs from greatest to least were
land
physical construction (materials)
physical construction (labour)
taxes (on all costs)
utilities (well, septic tank, electric grid connection, communications, or in the case of land within the network mains water, sewer and environmental impact fees)
permits
architect/design fees

If mass production of building designs is cheaper, why is it not done? after all cheap is what any purveyor of a product seeks.

And to really put the point in persepctive I did also spend a lot of time considering pre-fabricated, mass produced modular buildings. These worked out only marginally cheaper, if at all by the time transportation and assembly costs had been added on. This despite the fact that architect/design fees were spread across many thousands of near identical structures.



If you build a house you have to pay for labour and materials, however the most expensive part of the house is usually the plot, certainly in Britain I would imagine. There are no extra costs to building a carbon free house than building a traditional house, the secret is the design.

Having rebuilt a ruin of a farmhouse in France and using good materials, I know first hand that materials are not prohibitive in price when building and France has more taxes on building materials than Britain. Material costs in British houses made by the large developing companies are negliable because they use cheap materials.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/29/2007 2:28:13 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 2:43:10 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I am right.....again !!!

Just like you were on hydrogen cars.
Sinergy
Just like a woman, always bring up the past 
Nobodys perfect you know !

In one of solinear's links data is produced showing that the rate of increase of temperature change HAS increased since 1976. So my claim otherwise is wrong.
I will have to demand another check !!

NB wish cut/paste would work when "in edit"


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/29/2007 3:02:34 AM >

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 9:05:05 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Most companies have off the shelf designs and most people have conservative tastes but its only the architect and the initial design that costs. If designs are mass produced they get cheaper. Actually this was on BBC only last week.

So building materials are free? Last time I looked at buying property the costs from greatest to least were
land
physical construction (materials)
physical construction (labour)
taxes (on all costs)
utilities (well, septic tank, electric grid connection, communications, or in the case of land within the network mains water, sewer and environmental impact fees)
permits
architect/design fees

If mass production of building designs is cheaper, why is it not done? after all cheap is what any purveyor of a product seeks.

And to really put the point in persepctive I did also spend a lot of time considering pre-fabricated, mass produced modular buildings. These worked out only marginally cheaper, if at all by the time transportation and assembly costs had been added on. This despite the fact that architect/design fees were spread across many thousands of near identical structures.

If you build a house you have to pay for labour and materials, however the most expensive part of the house is usually the plot, certainly in Britain I would imagine. There are no extra costs to building a carbon free house than building a traditional house, the secret is the design.

Having rebuilt a ruin of a farmhouse in France and using good materials, I know first hand that materials are not prohibitive in price when building and France has more taxes on building materials than Britain. Material costs in British houses made by the large developing companies are negliable because they use cheap materials.


I guess I should have mentioned, that I was not looking to build within the UK.

I ask again, if carbon neutral houses are cheaper, why are more not built? Heck Ill even thin down the definition of carbon neutral into two sections, either carbon neutral to build and equip, or carbon neutral to run, rather than using the much fairer method of earth to earth. That is why I drive one of the most eco-friendly vehicles around, a big old SUV!


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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 10:50:11 AM   
aviinterra


Posts: 208
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		 I have not gone through all the previous posts, and I am sure they are full of the same arguments. Some people will deny that grass is green even when standing in the middle of it. Denying global warming is ignorance of the highest kind- and it makes the U.S., the top advanced polluter the laughing stock of the whole world. This just out today in the news: 13 % of Americans have not even heard of global warming. Latin American's citizens have heard of it, at a rate of 96%, 75% of which rate it a "very serious" problem, compared to 42% U.S. citizens. ( http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070129/us_nm/globalwarming_survey_dc ) Maybe Al Gore's facts are not perfect, but at least he is doing something, unlike the rest of us.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 11:56:02 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy


I guess I should have mentioned, that I was not looking to build within the UK.

I ask again, if carbon neutral houses are cheaper, why are more not built? Heck Ill even thin down the definition of carbon neutral into two sections, either carbon neutral to build and equip, or carbon neutral to run, rather than using the much fairer method of earth to earth. That is why I drive one of the most eco-friendly vehicles around, a big old SUV!



It looks like all new homes built in Britain will have to be carbon neutral by 2016.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6176229.stm

http://www.24dash.com/content/news/viewNews.php?navID=1&newsID=5879

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/12/all_new_homes_i.php

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 11:09:10 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Solinear

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i do know water levels have risen a bit in venice


I seem to recall data that rather than supporting rising water levels venice itself was sinking.

The UK has a similar phenonemon (sp?) the south east is sinking (relative increase in water levels) wheras the northwest is rising (relative decrease in water levels)


I just saw something about that today and Venice *is* sinking... however, the water coming into the lagoon has increased by a significant amount over the past couple of decades.



Venice has been sinking for thousands of years.

Does this prove that global warming due to sequested carbon being released into the atmosphere is a lie?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Solinear)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 11:10:51 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I am right.....again !!!

Just like you were on hydrogen cars.
Sinergy
Just like a woman, always bring up the past 
Nobodys perfect you know !

In one of solinear's links data is produced showing that the rate of increase of temperature change HAS increased since 1976. So my claim otherwise is wrong.
I will have to demand another check !!

NB wish cut/paste would work when "in edit"



I am not the one who pompously opined my certitude.

Sinergy


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 11:25:04 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Solinear

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i do know water levels have risen a bit in venice


I seem to recall data that rather than supporting rising water levels venice itself was sinking.

The UK has a similar phenonemon (sp?) the south east is sinking (relative increase in water levels) wheras the northwest is rising (relative decrease in water levels)


I just saw something about that today and Venice *is* sinking... however, the water coming into the lagoon has increased by a significant amount over the past couple of decades.



Venice has been sinking for thousands of years.

Does this prove that global warming due to sequested carbon being released into the atmosphere is a lie?

Sinergy

It is certainly accepted here in Holland that global warming is already causing major problems and Hollan is already building large banks 30 kilometres off the coast to kill the extraordinarily large waves that in the last ten years have been produced by the tidal wash. Ground water has significantly increased and plans are being produced to strengthen and enlarge the dyke system. Yep, Holland is sinking but this doesn't account for the rise in water.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 1/29/2007 11:27:32 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/29/2007 11:28:47 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Solinear

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i do know water levels have risen a bit in venice


I seem to recall data that rather than supporting rising water levels venice itself was sinking.

The UK has a similar phenonemon (sp?) the south east is sinking (relative increase in water levels) wheras the northwest is rising (relative decrease in water levels)


I just saw something about that today and Venice *is* sinking... however, the water coming into the lagoon has increased by a significant amount over the past couple of decades.



Venice has been sinking for thousands of years.

Does this prove that global warming due to sequested carbon being released into the atmosphere is a lie?

Sinergy

It is certainly accepted here in Holland that global warming is already causing major problems and Hollan is already building large banks 30 kilometres off the coast to kill the extraordinarily large waves that in the last ten years have been produced by the tidal wash. Ground water has significantly increased and plans are being produced to strengthen and enlarge the dyke system.


I used to live in the Netherlands, Meatcleaver.  I love the Dutch.  Their period as a world power was due to their incredible ability to win land and survival from the sea and winds.

While New Orleans and Florida become tropical aquariums, I have faith that the Dutch will solve the problem.

Sinergy

p.s. I did not ever vote for Mr. 90DayProblemsolver Monkeyboy.


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/30/2007 12:25:51 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		Since you didnt get back to me i had to watch again... gag LOL

So i looked at his chart and notices that even tho co2 is the same as it was in the last hot cycle, the temp is roughly 25% lower than the last hot cycle.  Is there an explanation for this?

From the carbon cycle links that you gave me i got the impression it wold correct itself through the formation of more water vapor which would make more cirrus clouds and thus reflect much of the suns energy back out into space before it hit the earth.

Like i also said i really have not educated myself on this and wanted to know your opinion on that and why the temp now according to al's chart is 25-30% lower than the same co2 levels of the last heat cycle?


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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/30/2007 8:41:41 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
It looks like all new homes built in Britain will have to be carbon neutral by 2016.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6176229.stm

http://www.24dash.com/content/news/viewNews.php?navID=1&newsID=5879

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/12/all_new_homes_i.php



And according to an item I read today, if you try to make your existing home more carbon neutral, say by adding a wind turbine, solar panels or similar, the local councils will tax you more.

What the government giveth, the government taketh away.

I doubt very much the homes will be carbon neutral, perhaps some aspects of them will be, and having quickly read through one of those links this appears to be the case. I notice also that financial incentives are to be offered to build such homes, surely that proves my point that such structures are not cheaper, if they were so there would be no need for such incentives and every home being built today would be "carbon neutral"

_____________________________

Opinion is packaged by weight not volume, contents may settle during transit. Consult you medical practitioner. Do not attempt to stop moving parts by hand. Ensure all safety shields in place. Open this way up. Do not expose to temperatures exceeding 50C

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/30/2007 9:29:34 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

And according to an item I read today, if you try to make your existing home more carbon neutral, say by adding a wind turbine, solar panels or similar, the local councils will tax you more.



If the local council taxes you more that is par for the course but not the fault of the house.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy
I doubt very much the homes will be carbon neutral, perhaps some aspects of them will be, and having quickly read through one of those links this appears to be the case. I notice also that financial incentives are to be offered to build such homes, surely that proves my point that such structures are not cheaper, if they were so there would be no need for such incentives and every home being built today would be "carbon neutral"


Carbon neutral houses ar being built in Holland and aren't super expensive but then, this is Holland which for some reason always seems to be infinitely more reasonable than Britain.

If you buy a Victorian Terrace in east London it will set you back something in the region of 300,000 pounds. You could build a row of carbon neutral houses for that but of course most of the cost of a house is where the house is stituated and in a country where home ownership is a religion, that makes prices rediculous. My appartment near the centre of Amsterdam cost one third of my London appartment and its a lot bigger. I think there in lies the problem in Britain and not the carbon neutral part of the deal.

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RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 1/31/2007 5:19:18 PM   
Solinear


Posts: 283
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Solinear

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
i do know water levels have risen a bit in venice


I seem to recall data that rather than supporting rising water levels venice itself was sinking.

The UK has a similar phenonemon (sp?) the south east is sinking (relative increase in water levels) wheras the northwest is rising (relative decrease in water levels)


I just saw something about that today and Venice *is* sinking... however, the water coming into the lagoon has increased by a significant amount over the past couple of decades.



Venice has been sinking for thousands of years.

Does this prove that global warming due to sequested carbon being released into the atmosphere is a lie?

Sinergy


I was simply stating that while Venice is sinking, that doesn't change the fact that the water entering the 3 inlets coming into the lagoon where it resides has increased drastically in the near past.  This is a statement of fact and doesn't lend itself to proving or disproving anything other than the fact that, while the city is sinking, the sea level (independent of the city's level) is increasing.  I'm sure that it could be measured almost anywhere on the Mediterranean though.  Venice just gives us an easy way to measure, since, while it's part of the Mediterranean, it's somewhat isolated.

Do I think that global warming is or is not an effect of CO2 ppm increase?  I haven't the slightest.  It seems like the only way that a particle in the air could increase the global temperature would be if it decreases the reflectivity of clouds.  If it acts as an insulator (to hold in heat), then it's 2 ways... it holds heat in and out.  I would tend to believe that it's related to sunspot activity (increased IR output of the sun) and if you track back through history, at least in the last 500ish years, the average temperature seems to be closely related to that.  I guess what we really need to wait for is the sunspot activity (and the associated IR output) to decrease and see what the affect on global temperatures is.

I guess for me it's more of an equation.  x amount of energy is coming into the planet from the sun.  x is variable upon the activity of the sun... y amount of energy is leaving the planet... it has a different variance than x does.  If x and y are not equal, then the energy (read: temperature) of the planet will change.  If x is larger than y, then the temperature will increase; if y is larger than x, then the temperature will decrease.  Of course, the amount of energy that is required to heat the planet by just 1 degree is huge, so these changes take many years to be measurable and be attributed to something other than normal variation.

I really just think that we have a habit of taking an effect and looking for a cause and naturally we consider ourselves the creators of the cause (being self centered).  If the temperatures drop over the next 50 years by twice the amount that they increased in the last 50 years, we'll get to hear about how something that we're doing is causing a new Ice Age.  Some things there is absolutely no debating... 100 billion gallons of water are pumped out of a lake and it's volume is decreased by ~80 billion gallons (environment wants to go back to it's parity position, so compensates a little), then we are pretty sure what the cause is.  A lake that holds 200 billion gallons is going to be down by 40%... that is clearly measurable and we can track the cause.  CO2?  I really need to see the math on that series of equations to really believe it.  Increased IR output from the sun, which is the source of 99% of the energy that this planet has?  Yeah, I'll go with that one... increase the IR output by 5% and you get a corresponding increase in the energy on the planet, unless you can figure out how to also increase the energy leaving the planet.

I feel like I keep saying the same thing over and over... sorry for the redundancies.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 2/1/2007 9:45:23 PM   
deadbluebird


Posts: 265
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.cnn.com/2007/tech/science/02/01/climate.talks.ap/index.html

Still going to deny it?

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 2/1/2007 10:00:41 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The truth is getting rather too inconvenient now even for those that just want to earn a quick dollar. Pointless earning a quick dollar if you can't spend it. However, there is still too much belief in new technologies coming over the horizon like the 7th cavalry or that markets can solve the problem. We need to modify our life styles and not consume as much as we do and if we plan for that, things don't have to be as uncomfortable as waiting for a crisis and then responding inadequately on reflex. I've not much faith in the powers that be. There are people who will consume as if their life depended on it even if they knew their consumption would spin the world in the morning. 


meatcleaver:
If I remember my history did'nt the 7th cav have a bit of trouble when they came over the horizon and found all those indians.
thompson

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 2/2/2007 5:41:15 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The truth is getting rather too inconvenient now even for those that just want to earn a quick dollar. Pointless earning a quick dollar if you can't spend it. However, there is still too much belief in new technologies coming over the horizon like the 7th cavalry or that markets can solve the problem. We need to modify our life styles and not consume as much as we do and if we plan for that, things don't have to be as uncomfortable as waiting for a crisis and then responding inadequately on reflex. I've not much faith in the powers that be. There are people who will consume as if their life depended on it even if they knew their consumption would spin the world in the morning. 


meatcleaver:
If I remember my history did'nt the 7th cav have a bit of trouble when they came over the horizon and found all those indians.
thompson


I dont think the US Cavalry was ever in Mumbai. 

Or perhaps you mean native Americans?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Inconvenient Truth - Al Gore Documentary - 2/3/2007 3:40:30 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I dont think the US Cavalry was ever in Mumbai. 

Or perhaps you mean native Americans?

Sinergy


They are still cowboys and indians this side of the pond.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 77
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