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D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 2:10:51 AM   
woundedbird


Posts: 11
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		I've been looking for a topic that addresses the difference between BDSM and D/s. I see many people use the terms as interchangeable.  I was taught that D/s is about the psyche.  It's about the emotional, psyhocological, and relationship aspects.  BDSM is about physicality.  It's a set of actions that can be used as tools to re-inforce D/s, but by itself is simply physical acts.  I realized that I was a submissive by examining my relationships.  All of my relationships.  And, it was the non-sexual relationships that made me see exactly how submissive I am.  When I see people using these terms as interchangeable, it makes me wonder if people truly understand.  Just because I let someone spank me does not mean there is a power exchange.  And, even if I have a power exchange with another person, it doesn't mean our relationship is sexual.  How many others see this and wonder how much education is really going on about D/s and BDSM?
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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 2:52:18 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		lol.  You are overthinking things.  Who the fuck ever convinced you that they were two separate entities?  D/s falls under the BDSM umbrella, end of story.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 2:57:36 AM   
bandit25


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Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		I don't know why it would make any difference  if they are separate or irrevocably connected; however, I don't think either must be sexual.  At least, I thought you implied that one of them was.

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 1/28/2007 3:03:12 AM >

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 3:07:40 AM   
woundedbird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

D/s falls under the BDSM umbrella, end of story.


why?

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 3:32:08 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Because I said so?  lol.

That is just the way it is.  I have no idea why, save for the fact that bondage and discipline, dominance and submission and sadism and masochism all fall under one umbrella.  Control/Power exchange.

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Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 3:50:44 AM   
woundedbird


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Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		smiles...but that's my point.  I was taught one way, and it's a way that makes sense to me.  While, yes BDSM and D/s do go hand in hand, one can, and does exist without the other.  So, why are they thought of as interchangeable?  Why do they fall under "one umbrella"?  BDSM doesn't HAVE to be about power exchange, it can simply be a good time between friends.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 3:59:05 AM   
dawntreader


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Because I said so?  lol.

That is just the way it is.  I have no idea why, save for the fact that bondage and discipline, dominance and submission and sadism and masochism all fall under one umbrella.  Control/Power exchange.


i am still a novice myself but it is my understanding that D/s can stand alone with out an umbrella :-)  but for ease of identification gets put under the umbrella with everything else. And then again, i guess it depends on what the umbrella is...
Personally, i don't worry about it ...labels are labels are labels...

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 4:09:18 AM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Let me put it this way.  It is impossible to have a bondage scene without a power exchange.  One person has to have control.  There is the top and the bottom.  It is impossible to have a discipline scene without control.  It is impossible to have a D/s dynamic without control and a power exchange.  It is impossible to have an S&M session without control.  Without the control/power exchange umbrella there is no dynamic.  That is all there is to it.

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Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 4:10:16 AM   
Squeakers


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry but I agree with the OP, they are seperate.   There are many who fall under the umbrella of D/s and have no interest in BDSM.   I agree that SM can be very mental because it's there that I often hit my subspace but I disbelieve D/s and BDSM are interchangeable.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 4:14:26 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline 		If it makes sense to you, then don't worry about what others think.  It's what you and your partner(s) think that's important.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 4:17:43 AM   
julietsierra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: woundedbird

smiles...but that's my point.  I was taught one way, and it's a way that makes sense to me.  While, yes BDSM and D/s do go hand in hand, one can, and does exist without the other.  So, why are they thought of as interchangeable?  Why do they fall under "one umbrella"?  BDSM doesn't HAVE to be about power exchange, it can simply be a good time between friends.


I differentiate between D/s and bdsm. Yes, People can think of it as being all under one umbrella as SirKenin pointed out, but to me, D/s is also it's own umbrella. So, I tend to not think in terms of umbrellas, but in terms of Venn Diagrams, with two interconnecting circles - with room for more. One circle is bdsm, the other is D/s and where they interconnect is where those who think of it as all the same would find the similarities between bdsm and D/s. (Add another circle and you've accounted for M/s as well.) But there are also significant differences as you have pointed out as well. So, in terms of diagraming out what we do, a Venn works well for me.

I tried a T model to attempt what SirKenin was suggesting and it just didn't work. Under this version, everything was either quite separate with no common areas of interest or so mixed up as to be unable to differentiate between what was going on, and without denigrating any side, differentiation is exactly what we do when we look for the type of relationship we want.

At any rate, I do differentiate between D/s and bdsm. When we're fishing, we are still very actively engaged in a D/s relationship, but we are not doing anything identifiable as bdsm. The only slap you're going to hear is when the fish hits the deck after one of us has taken it off the hook. But when the fishing poles are put away and I am across his knee, or tied to a cross, or whatever else he has planned for me, we are engaging in bdsm.

The fact is, he can put a bottom across his knee or a submissive or me - his slave. While we may all approach this activity from different points of view, the action is the same. However, it isn't D/s. D/s is what describes what's going on between us when he isn't spanking, or whipping or whatever else he comes up with. In our relationship, D/s doesn't stop with the end of a scene or when he goes home. It exists when I'm at work or driving in the car with him or alone or with my kids. It is the way we live our lives.

juliet

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 4:25:32 AM   
ScooterTrash


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From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Let me put it this way.  It is impossible to have a bondage scene without a power exchange.  One person has to have control.  There is the top and the bottom.  It is impossible to have a discipline scene without control.  It is impossible to have a D/s dynamic without control and a power exchange.  It is impossible to have an S&M session without control.  Without the control/power exchange umbrella there is no dynamic.  That is all there is to it.
Kenin....I agree with half of this. You can't have a bondage scene wthout a power exchange, but you can certainly have D/s without BDSM. Dominance is not a scene..it is in fact a dynamic or dare I say, a lifestyle and can exist without any kink associated with it what so ever. Certainly the fact that it is there, makes BDSM possible, but just because you have contol doesn't mean it's a BDSM day..it's just an option.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 4:45:23 AM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		While I see what people are saying, I look at it all as being about control.  That is where they all intersect.  While it is true that they can exist almost seperately, none can exist without that one common point.  Two circles intersecting, or whatever have you, they must all share that similarity.   That, then, is the umbrella.  Actually I have heard the DS in BDSM used to symbolize both discipline and sadism as well as Dominance and submission.

They also share one other bond.  They are both kinks.  They can intertwine with each other, but they can not stand apart.  You can not have D/s without discipline in any of its many forms.  So, BDSM can live without D/s, but D/s can not live without at least one portion of the BDSM context.

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Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 5:02:36 AM   
julietsierra


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Joined: 9/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

They also share one other bond.  They are both kinks.  They can intertwine with each other, but they can not stand apart.  You can not have D/s without discipline in any of its many forms.  So, BDSM can live without D/s, but D/s can not live without at least one portion of the BDSM context.


I'm curious, when you say "discipline in any of its many forms" do you include walking away? Because that's the only form of "discipline" I face, and I don't see that as so separate from even a vanilla relationship. In what we do, he dominates, I submit - each of us because we choose to do so, not because one of us will enforce what we want and the other will be disciplined for not doing it. If I choose to not do what he wants, it means I am choosing not to submit. At that point, we no longer have a D/s relationship. If he starts behaving in a way that puts me in charge, we no longer have a D/s relationship. In each instance, if we no longer have a D/s relationship one of us is walking away - no matter how much we may care about each other. And  that holds true for the both of us, so I'm not living under the perpetual sword of damoclese here with the threat of him leaving always being at the back of my mind, any more so than he's living under the same sword. We're doing this because we want to, not for the discipline portion of it all.

juliet

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 5:02:42 AM   
mstrjx


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Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I think that if people distinguish between the two, it might be because they feel they fall into one category or another.

For instance, if you tell people you are into D/s, what you are saying is that you have an affinity for the relationship aspects, but not the 'play' aspects.

I used to read the old 'Bondage Life' magazines.  A lot of that was pictures and letters from 'real people'.  Well more than half of the writings there proclaimed that bondage was wonderful, but anything having to do with pain was an outrage.  Clearly, they wouldn't say that they were part of the BDSM umbrella.

When I started, I embraced it all (bondge, domination, S/m) fairly equally.  I'll mix and match D/s and BDSM in my posts all day long and not think twice about it.  When I think the reader really needs a clarification, I'll be less casual about my lingo.

Jeff

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 5:05:55 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Ok... this is gonna get ugly... I just know it... but here goes.
 
Twenty years ago (or maybe even 25, That's as far back as I go anyway) BDSM meant bondage, disipline, sadism and masochism. Some place along the line it got tweaked to mean bondage/disipline - dominance/submission - sadism/masochism.... And it makes sense, hell, move it around some more and you can get master/slave out of the same four letters. That's cool, it works.... But I believe that BDSM and the M/s or D/s lifestyle are different entities and the basic BDSM meaning was altered over time to involve the rest of the "kink" community... or enough individuals evolved it to fit them (like that never happens around here).... something like churches .... you know? It used to be that you had to be true and faithful and reverent ALL the time... but now you only have to do it on Sunday... it "evolved".
 
Jewel

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 5:11:39 AM   
BBBTBW


Posts: 836
Joined: 5/21/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with Sir Kenin.  You are overthinking it.  My interpretation and understanding of D/s vs BDSM may be completely different from yours. 

ex:  You may see bondage as only a physical act therefore classifying it as BDSM...However, I see bondage as physical but also emotional and mental which would classify it as D/s according to your definition. 

If your understanding works for you, then thats what you should go with. 

Another good rule of thumb is to leave the titles out and just do what you do without complicating it for yourself.  No two people are ever going to have the same exact thoughts about one particular thing.  Enjoy yourself without over intellectualizing.

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 5:13:03 AM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Dear WB-
 
in the mid nineties, when the web really exploded, and message boards and chatrooms popped up all over the place, Terms became more important, and some bright person coined 'BDSM' as an acronym to include B&D, D/S, and SM, to serve as an umbrella term for WIIWD (what it is we do).
 
You seem to be using BDSM to mean B&D+ SM, but I assure you that D/s is in there too, as it is commonly used (bDSm).
 
To state that SM or B&D is only about the physical, or that D/S is not about the physical as well as the mental, betrays lack of experiance, and an exposure to poor instruction.
 
Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 5:15:10 AM   
julietsierra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

I think that if people distinguish between the two, it might be because they feel they fall into one category or another.

For instance, if you tell people you are into D/s, what you are saying is that you have an affinity for the relationship aspects, but not the 'play' aspects.

I used to read the old 'Bondage Life' magazines.  A lot of that was pictures and letters from 'real people'.  Well more than half of the writings there proclaimed that bondage was wonderful, but anything having to do with pain was an outrage.  Clearly, they wouldn't say that they were part of the BDSM umbrella.

When I started, I embraced it all (bondge, domination, S/m) fairly equally.  I'll mix and match D/s and BDSM in my posts all day long and not think twice about it.  When I think the reader really needs a clarification, I'll be less casual about my lingo.

Jeff


And I consider myself D/s who happens to love SM, but while I have fun with bondage, it's kind of the foreplay for the SM portion and FOR ME, does not stand on its own.

But at the bottom of it all, without the D/s, the rest is a lot of fun, but nothing to base a life on, and I very much do base my life on those strange concepts of loyalty, fidelity and fealty (fidelity and fealty meaning close to the same thing but differentiated in my mind to make fidelity more conjugal than just faithful, and fealty more closely aligned to promises made to one person - as a servant to a lord - without starting all the title conversations)

juliet

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RE: D/s versus BDSM - 1/28/2007 5:16:07 AM   
maiden1971


Posts: 12
Joined: 5/30/2006
Status: offline 		Hello - First I would like to say that I do not claim in any way shape or form to be an expert, but I will share what I have come to understand.  BDSM = Bondage/Discipline Dominace/Submission Slavery/Sadist Sadism/Masochism.  Spanning from simple, kinky bedroom play to hardcore extremes that could make harden criminals seek therapy.  (grin)  ALL - and I repeat - ALL have mental aspects.  ALL deals with a power exchange - even if it is only mental.  The lighter side of the spectrum, what is perceived as B/D D/S, does seem to focus more on the senuality and relies heavily on the mental, however, aspects of the other end of the spectrum are also applied - albeit in a 'softer and lighter' form.  ALL can be a part of and used to deepen a relationship between the people involved because each is giving and receiving what they need from the other.  No one as the right to judge because those aspects do not personally appeal to you. 

One aspect can progress to another (meaning someone who started out with just being tied up and can progress with patience to being a Slave and/or Masochist) but it does not mean that the validity of the commitment the people involved feel is any different.  They are considered 'interchangeable' because, as I have stated above, there are elements of all within all.  Yet although I am sure you will not have a Sadist say that he is simply into Bondage even though he uses bondage when he is at play/work.  However, he would rely on the mental aspect he has cultivated in how others - particularly his Submissive/Slave/Masochist or even other Sadists/Dominates- perceive him.

Think about it this way, what you are basically asking is - what is the difference between a hobby and a job.... the answer, personal enjoyment, satisfaction, sense of accomplishment... perhaps even pay, etc.  Not a real difference when you put them side by side and could actually be perceived as 'under one umbrella'.  The true difference lies in personal perception and how it fits within your life and how it makes you feel - relaxed versus stressed.  (soft smile) Don't try to find complications where there are none.

(in reply to julietsierra)
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