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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 6:38:49 AM

smilezz

Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
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Yes, i "could" be sold if that is what He wanted.

I would abandon everything that i feel inside and suffer the rest of my life not being able to serve another Man.
I have waited all my life to serve a Man such as Thorns, this is it, my last stop. I am fiercely devoted to this Man, i believe there is no Man that compares to who Thorns is. So yes, my answer still stands.

~smilezz~

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(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 21

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 6:50:11 AM

tricia

Posts: 231
Joined: 1/1/2004
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With all due respect, Squeakers, I see this debate in a different light. Seems every time I turn around someone is out to prove why "I" couldn't possibly be what I claim to be.

quote:

So slaves.....

Can you be sold or if you were sold would you just stop being a slave and realize you were never one to begin with?

This thread/topic is obviously no different.

How people define themselves, while always interesting to read, holds little if any importance to me. Luckily, I don't need to be validated. I'm a submissive woman who is currently in a relationship where I am considered a slave. That is good enough for me.

As for being sold or traded - while I'm sure there are many days, my Master, Sam, would love to trade me in for two nineteen year olds, he happens to care for me - as a slave, a person, and a woman. Because he is continuously looking out for my well being - this is something that would never occur in our relationship. We are okay with 'running the risk' that this makes us less ( or more, depending on what side of the debate you're on) than what we claim we are.

(in reply to Squeakers)

Post #: 22

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 6:52:33 AM

thetammyjo

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Joined: 9/8/2005
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I think that questions about "real" or "true" may reveal a couple of things about those debating the questions or demanding answers that will apply to everyone.

First, a disconnect with reality and a focus on fantasy.

Two, an inability to create a dynamic without following someone else's expectations or path, thus the drive to define things so "neatly" and universally".

Third, insecurity that demands that others follow one's own expectations or else doubt is cast on one's own view of the world.

Fourth, too much time on one's hands.

Finally, a life spent too much in the mind and not enough in the world doing and living life with other human beings.

As a historian I get annoyed (extremely) by misinformation that relates to historical or institutional slavery. As an activist and educator I'm saddened when people struggle to live in reality and refuse to or are unable to do things that increase their chances of success in their relationships.

But as a dominant who considers herself to be a slave owner, frankly I don't give a damn about how anyone else would "define" my life unless that other person is a member of my household. Guess what? Either they agree with my definitions or they aren't here.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 23

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:04:23 AM

FatDomDaddy

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Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSophia
The question is are you by all meaning a slave? Or are you a slave in fantasy,and erotic , and so it ends your slavery until another come along to peak your interest!! Is it your life calling, or just the fantasy?

This is exactly the question. I would also add that my use of the word true is an attempt to bring a literial meaning to slave, re a dictionary meaning, slave: one that is chattel property with no rights,,, and the meaning or real is also in that vain.

(in reply to MistressSophia)

Post #: 24

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:05:55 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Given that a true slave has no rights other than the ones given to them by their master, the census of opinion (of which I disagreed) was that in order to be a real slave, a person would have to be chattel property and have the ability to be sold and owned by another.

The conclusion is based on a false premise. It is not a given that a slave has no rights...that's sometimes decided between two people. But, let's assume it's true...there is still NOTHING that says a person HAS to be anything. Again, it's all between the two people and how they've decided to run their relationship. If they have agreed to this kind of behavior, then yes, it might be true for them. But, if not, it's totally invalid.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 25

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:07:29 AM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

A recent discussion led to debate about slavery within the "scene" and whether one can truly be a slave or is one really just pretending knowing that they live in a free country and can really walk away when ever they want to,

Given that a true slave has no rights other than the ones given to them by their master, the census of opinion (of which I disagreed) was that in order to be a real slave, a person would have to be chattel property and have the ability to be sold and owned by another.

So slaves.....

Can you be sold or if you were sold would you just stop being a slave and realize you were never one to begin with?

*Added at a request via off thread e-mail. "Master/Mistress would never sell me" is a bit of a cop out to the discussion*

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 26

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:09:48 AM

asassylilslave

Posts: 93
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

A recent discussion led to debate about slavery within the "scene" and whether one can truly be a slave or is one really just pretending knowing that they live in a free country and can really walk away when ever they want to,

Given that a true slave has no rights other than the ones given to them by their master, the census of opinion (of which I disagreed) was that in order to be a real slave, a person would have to be chattel property and have the ability to be sold and owned by another.

So slaves.....

Can you be sold or if you were sold would you just stop being a slave and realize you were never one to begin with?

In my relationships in the past, I entered into slavery willingly, knowing that at any time he found displeasure in my service, he could give me away or sell me if he so desired.

So yes, I can be sold, and yes, I have been sold and continued in my slavery to the person that I was sold to.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 27

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:12:18 AM

Kondolinni

Posts: 67
Joined: 4/2/2004
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I agree with the posts here that touch upon the element of psychological bonds. The two primary forces that seem to control the depth of surrender in a girl I am with are, 1: her ability and desire to internally pledge herself to obedience with the expressed purpose of engendering my approval, and 2: my ability to take and hold control over her personality.

Assuming chemistry and compatibility, these qualities mature and ripen as the relationship evolves. I have a girl slaving for me right now who exactly obeys my commands to the letter, and has prioritized my pleasure and satisfaction over her own. What pleasure she receives flows from me and through me.

Although I feel personally I know this girl's mind-set fairly well, I will, out of a sense of fairness to subs and slaves, not speak for her.

From my point of view, her slavery to me seems abject.

Unconditional.

I am currently systematicly testing the limits of her obedience. In every way a mature, intellectual man could consider such a thing, she is my slave. This remains true desite the fact that the relationship is proceeding at a set pace, imposed by me. She functions at present with only a limited commitment from me. She understands that my ongoing involvement with her is entirely dependant on the development of our M/s bond as an aspect of the relationship.

Within the framework of the undeniable reality that enforced slavery is not legal or practical in modern western society, her slavery to me seems quite real. She bathes me, massages me, and pleasures me according to my whims. She prepares my meals and caters to my small needs and wishes. She keeps my home. She has a vanilla job, and goes to it 5 days a week. The second she hits the door of the apartment, she belongs to me. She has to meet my standards for performance, and accepts correction and punishment from me to enhance her performance and encourage her to achieve excellence. An order from me is an order. How she feels, what she is doing, do not change the nature of a command from me. She has a list of conditions whish she may invoke that allow her to demure or defer obedience to any command I give her. What these are is less important than the fact that they come from me, and are the only instances under which she may "disobey" me. An urgent need to urinate/deficate is one. A bleeding wound is one. Emergency phone call is one. You get the idea.

As my girlfreind, I have told her that her life with me will consist of long periods where she is my pleasure slave, peppered with moments where she enjoys spikes of sexual stimulation and gratification. In other words, I am a selfish master and want her to agree to mostly meet my needs. She is to give me what I want, with unconditional, compliant obedience for as long as she thinks/feels I make it worth her while. If she feels she is not being compensated for what I demand of her, she has been given a means to convey this to me. As our time together grows, and my demands grow, I have promised to continually inform her of what I am prepared to offer her in exchange as my need/desire for her grows.

Sounds like she's my fuckin' slave.

To me.

(in reply to PhoenixLM)

Post #: 28

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:22:46 AM

tricia

Posts: 231
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

I'll bite. For discussion sake, I'll briefly pretend my Master would like to sell me. As long as he provided a receipt to this person with an extensive refund/exhange policy then yes, uh huh , I would "allow" (for lack of a better word ) myself to be sold. I would also hope my new master wasn't one of those people who likes to play with the box the 'toy' came in more than the actual toy.

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 29

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:36:14 AM

FatDomDaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Given that a true slave has no rights other than the ones given to them by their master, the census of opinion (of which I disagreed) was that in order to be a real slave, a person would have to be chattel property and have the ability to be sold and owned by another.

The conclusion is based on a false premise. It is not a given that a slave has no rights...that's sometimes decided between two people.

To MFM and others who have a similar response. This post is intend to provoke a discussion is slavery. There is "real" slavery. If, as many with in "the scene" profess, that "the scene" is not a scene but reality in every sense of the word i.e. 24/7, than we must define accurately the word slave.

From Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: 1slave

Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'slAv
Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Old French or Medieval Latin; Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe
1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence

From Oxford English Dictionary of Current English:

slave

• noun 1 historical a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

Oxford English Dictionary of Current English.

I we are to give credible scholarly dictionaries their due credit, slavery is not a negotiable. A slave is property. If one has the ability to decide for themselves, they are by definition not a slave. There is no consent unless a Slave Master is willing to give it.

Clearly by some of the answers here several self described slaves said they are for sale but hope that would never happen.

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 1/30/2007 7:42:18 AM >

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 30

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:42:29 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
There is "real" slavery

Yes..but then their opinions are moot as "real" slaves don't have them, right? Who cares if they don't want to be sold? But, let's be honest, For the majority of the lifestyle, this isn't about being a "real" slave. This is about being an a relationship where we have consented to a transfer of authority inside a structured relationship. This isn't the slave trade (which is REAL slavery).

Master Fire -

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 31

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:51:30 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Can you be sold or if you were sold would you just stop being a slave and realize you were never one to begin with?

In my relationship with my owner, it was completely understood that I could be sold, bartered, traded, given away or whatever at any point.

However, people who try to apply legal historical definitions of "slavery" to a consensual personal relationship choice will always end up on the wrong path. They are two completely different dynamics and the same definition cannot be applied.

_____________________________

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 32

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:53:50 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

But, let's be honest, For the majority of the lifestyle, this isn't about being a "real" slave.
...This isn't the slave trade (which is REAL slavery).

Ahhh...for for a a strong vocal minority, they would argue that this is in every sense of the world real. I would argue that if one says thery are (in the terms of the lifestyle) 100% real, 24/7, "not a role but who I really am" "not a choice but who I really am" etc. Then we must use real definitions to discuss slavery. Ergo, the slave trade would be real here too, illegal but real. And if it is real, a slave would have no option in their sale or to be loaned out on behalf of the master.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 33

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:58:23 AM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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I always heard disgruntled slaves and pig's assholes are what hotdogs are made from.

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 34

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 7:58:35 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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Just a note that even institutional and historical slavery constantly had limits on what an owner could and could not do. These might be legal, religious, social, or economic limits.

In societies where slavery is supported (and I would say that social support is required to make it something other than a crime or a consensual relationship) the slave owner must bend to the will of the society at large. He/she cannot do whatever they want without suffering consequences for any actions that the society deems to be wrong.

The idea that the slave owner in historical or instutional slavery has total power and authority is false.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy
Given that a true slave has no rights other than the ones given to them by their master, the census of opinion (of which I disagreed) was that in order to be a real slave, a person would have to be chattel property and have the ability to be sold and owned by another.

The conclusion is based on a false premise. It is not a given that a slave has no rights...that's sometimes decided between two people.

To MFM and others who have a similar response. This post is intend to provoke a discussion is slavery. There is "real" slavery. If, as many with in "the scene" profess, that "the scene" is not a scene but reality in every sense of the word i.e. 24/7, than we must define accurately the word slave.

From Merriam-Webster: Main Entry: 1slave

Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'slAv
Etymology: Middle English sclave, from Old French or Medieval Latin; Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe
1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence

From Oxford English Dictionary of Current English:

slave

• noun 1 historical a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

Oxford English Dictionary of Current English.

I we are to give credible scholarly dictionaries their due credit, slavery is not a negotiable. A slave is property. If one has the ability to decide for themselves, they are by definition not a slave. There is no consent unless a Slave Master is willing to give it.

Clearly by some of the answers here several self described slaves said they are for sale but hope that would never happen.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 35

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:03:18 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetnurseBBW
Well this is your opinion of a slave. Not a fact. These slave arguements go nowhere. Yes he could sell me if he wanted. Does that make one a slave just because they can be sold. NO it does not. Everyone has there own opinion of a slave. Master's definition is not the same as yours. Don't generalize what all slaves should be, this works for you and good for you. Nothing is concrete in BDSM or a M/s realtionship.

There is realy slavery. The question put here is "BDSM" slavery real in the sense that actual chattel slaver is "real".

This it is a philosophical argument.

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)

Post #: 36

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:10:41 AM

BitaTruble

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

Can you clarify something, FDD? I'm a bit confused on what the purpose was of making the statement that most of the slaves here would not wish to be sold. If you had something or someone in your possession who enhanced your life, would you sell that person or thing? On the flip side, if someone is completely content, growing and thriving as a piece of property to someone, why would they want to be sold to someone else with whom they may not grow and thrive? Just because they 'can' be sold doesn't mean they 'want' to be sold. I guess I don't get the correlation so would appreciate any clarification on the matter.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 37

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:18:57 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

Fast Reply:

After reading only the OP, I’d like to say that, should I consider myself a slave…it would be a slave to a certain person. It’s that whole ‘conscious suspension of reality’ thang. And, should he decide he no longer wanted me to be a slave for him…I’d leave; but would not be sold. For me…that whole idea is a bit over the top.

I believe if he so tired of me, or held me in such little regard as to give or loan me to another…or suggested ‘selling’ me to someone else; then I’d believe I had misplaced my slavish nature and would just say ‘No’… (Surely you know what that means; the rapid exercise of my free will.)

Just me,
bearlee

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 38

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:23:33 AM

desires2

Posts: 39
Joined: 1/26/2007
Status: offline

~Greetings~..First of all, I do not consider myself a slave, but to me, for those who do, it is done with consent. They place themselves in the category of being of slave because that is what fulfills them. I call myself submissive~~but to my Sir, I am every ounce a slave in the respect that His wants and needs are seen to. He is the center of my universe, and I love Him. We have mutual respect for each other, He also sees to my wants and needs. Whatever you call it or don't~~I am His...heart, body, mind and soul. ~smiles~

I would like to add that because it is consensual slavery, I think the person has the right to leave anytime they want to. Not sold, as someone stated. A slave serves his/her Master because they wish to, not because they have to.

(in reply to PhoenixLM)

Post #: 39

RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:29:50 AM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Can you clarify something, FDD? I'm a bit confused on what the purpose was of making the statement that most of the slaves here would not wish to be sold.

Celeste

Hi Celeste.

I do not think I have ever made that statement. as I said above this it is a philosophical argument.

Why would anyone want to sell any property?

If you had a treasured family airloom worth say $85,000.00 would you sell it to pay for your child's education? Would you borrow against it? Would you loan it out for exibition?

If you owned a winning race horse, would you not offer its body for stud or foal?

What if one grows tired of an ivestment and no longer wants the burden or feels they can sell something off and get in a better investment.

quote:

if someone is completely content, growing and thriving as a piece of property to someone, why would they want to be sold to someone else with whom they may not grow and thrive?

Who says they have a say in it? What if the master wanted to trade up regardless of their feelings?

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 1/30/2007 8:33:13 AM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 40

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