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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:38:54 AM   
BitaTruble


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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Can you clarify something, FDD? I'm a bit confused on what the purpose was of making the statement that most of the slaves here would not wish to be sold.

Celeste


Hi Celeste.

I do not think I have ever made that statement.  as I said above this it is a philosophical argument.

quote:

Clearly by some of the answers here several self described slaves said they are for sale but hope that would never happen.


This was from your post. I'm just trying to figure out what the purpose was for writing it.


quote:

if someone is completely content, growing and thriving as a piece of property to someone, why would they want to be sold to someone else with whom they may not grow and thrive?


Who says they have a say in it? What if the master wanted to trade up regardless of their feelings?


There's a difference between having a 'say' in what happens and 'wanting' that thing to happen..

I'm afraid your answer hasn't clarified my confusion any. You did make that statement as I copied above and I'm just wondering 'why' you made that statement. It doesn't seem to serve any purpose, it furthers no arguement and doesn't seem to have anything to do with one's status as a slave since what a slave 'wants' doesn't matter.. it's what they get that counts.

I have a feeling I'm about to screw up the quoting, so hopefully you'll bear with me if I do. :)

Celeste

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:41:25 AM   
Squeakers


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline 		   I believe the difference here is not about 'REALLY' it about consensual slavery and non consnsual slavery.   Prior to emanciaption, I doubt one person who was REALLY a slave would consider their slavery to their Master consensual.    After the civil war, and slavery was abolished, the former slaves were held in a state of slavery, they really didn't have any rights and the 40 acres and a mule went completely out the window when Van Buren was elected into office. 
  I think even today there is non consensual slavery but not in the terms of BD/SM.   Put in a situation where there is absolutely no other choice, it can be defined as form of slavery.   But the possibility of that happening are extreemely rare.  
   In terms of BD/SM there is always some sort of choice.   If a Master says you are to be sold, you have a choice.   Mentally one may have entered the realm of not having a choice and are forced to obey, but that is a mental choice that CAN change.   
  
          

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:52:21 AM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		i sum it up like this..

there is AOL BDSM - which is all feathers and roses
There is the Net BDSM - which is more life based
There is the stuff that stays off the radar that you'd be hard pressed to locate

and that is why i think its really important to be careful about who you get involved with.  You never know which part of the BDSM world you are going to step into.


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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 8:54:18 AM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Squeakers

I believe the difference here is not about 'REALLY' it about consensual slavery and non consnsual slavery.   Prior to emanciaption, I doubt one person who was REALLY a slave would consider their slavery to their Master consensual.    After the civil war, and slavery was abolished, the former slaves were held in a state of slavery, they really didn't have any rights and the 40 acres and a mule went completely out the window when Van Buren was elected into office. 


smiles...

OK Squeakers...not meaning to offend in anyway.

I think "consenual slavery" in in every sense of the word (and remember words mean things) an oxymoron. Also  Martin van Buren wast seven presidents before the Civil War. He followed Andrew Jackson.

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 1/30/2007 8:56:08 AM >

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:15:04 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

...Prior to emanciaption, I doubt one person who was REALLY a slave would consider their slavery to their Master consensual... 

this slave would agree with Squeakers...except in the cases of the ones who ran away.  they probably saw their compliance with their Master and the law of the land as some sort of choice, after all.
 
for FDD's philosophical debate:
 
this slave believes the ones who risked their lives and ran away from their Master's probably thought the decision over more than once and decided they would CHOOSE not to be slave anymore, did that make them not "real" slaves when they came to the conclusion that they would rather break the law and risk ending their life than serve as a slave for one more minute?  when did their identity as "slave" end?
 
this slave's been doing genealogy research lately and has come across a stumbling block whereby an orphaned boy in pre-civil war Virginia chose to break the law and run away at a tender age of unmentionable,  rather than stay in service to his dead parent's owners...was his experience with slavery "real"?
 
with those things in mind, this slave wonders how you find one's propensity to participate in illegal activities, respect or the lack thereof for the current law of the land regarding ownership of human property correlating with one's perception of themselves, or other's perceptions of them, as slave?

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:16:42 AM   
felicitousdove


Posts: 45
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		i think therefore i am. I forgot who originally coined that phrase. At any rate, my opinion is that the rights and responsibilities of both Master/Mistress and slave, are exactly what those invovled agree to.

My reality is that i am Owned by LS. I also know and hope to be passed on to Another who is already chosen. Will LS sell me to Hawk? He could, but that is not what they agreed upon.

So fantasy or reality? Well it is not fantasy that has me scrubbing toilets, cooking meals, shovelling snow to run errands on this cold snowy day! But it is a bit of a fantasy-dream come true to be owned by One and loved by Two.




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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:29:42 AM   
FatDomDaddy


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Joined: 1/31/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

[this slave believes the ones who risked their lives and ran away from their Master's probably thought the decision over more than once and decided they would CHOOSE not to be slave anymore, did that make them not "real" slaves when they came to the conclusion that they would rather break the law and risk ending their life than serve as a slave for one more minute?  when did their identity as "slave" end?


They never chose to be a slave in the first place!  And by the laws of the time they were chattel property. The SCOTUS in Dread Scott said they had no rights at all under the Constitution of the United States ( tammyjo's limits point...there were laws, limits if you will to cruel and unusual  treatment, mostly overlooked but always owner's property rights prevailed)

That is one of my points, Slaves are taken or bought against their will.



(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:38:46 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!
Dang it, another coffee related keyboard accident!
Kyst
quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
Unless of course you are the mute child of Arab parents who sold you to a murderer who is the brother of the Sheriff in a small town in Kentucky. 


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:44:14 AM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetnurseBBW
Well this is your opinion of  a slave. Not a fact. These slave arguements go nowhere. Yes he could sell me if he wanted. Does that make one a slave just because they can be sold. NO it does not.  Everyone has there own opinion of a slave. Master's definition is not the same as yours. Don't generalize what all slaves should be, this works for you and good for you. Nothing is concrete in BDSM or a M/s realtionship.


There is realy slavery. The question put here is "BDSM" slavery real in the sense that actual chattel slaver is "real".

This it is a philosophical argument.



Give me facts and not definitions from a dictionary.  I haven't seen one thing from you that is fact thus far. Defintion is just that a definiton. Can be interpreted 
many different ways.  You reply in circles and don't give fact for you point of view.

< Message edited by sweetnurseBBW -- 1/30/2007 9:48:48 AM >

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:44:40 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

i think therefore i am. I forgot who originally coined that phrase

Rene Descartes

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:46:45 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
quote:

i think therefore i am. I forgot who originally coined that phrase

Rene Descartes
I'm so glad I'm not the only one to know that :)

The patron father of empiricism.

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:47:03 AM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		double post


< Message edited by sweetnurseBBW -- 1/30/2007 9:48:06 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:50:10 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Actually there is historic precident for consensual slavery dating back centuries. I submit the idea of Honor slavery/ Owing someone your life slavery as historic factual consensual slavery.

There have been cultures where if you save someone's life they owed you the remainder of that life as a matter of custom.


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 9:53:19 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I also conject that the idea of chattle slavery as a person having no rights fails the modern definative comparison of animal rights which are certainly codified in many western nations. An idea that is fairly recent hsitoricly speakingbut ideas anddefinitions change with time distance and location.

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 10:08:38 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: felicitousdove

i think therefore i am. I forgot who originally coined that phrase.

 
It was:  René Descartes  ...though he used capital 'I's.  ;)
 
An interesting article regarding the phrase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito_ergo_sum

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RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 10:21:58 AM   
Squeakers


Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline 		Sorry it was Hayes not Van Buren.  
   And in the USA slavery is not legal therefore in the realm BDSM selling of a slave would be consensual.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 10:25:23 AM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Squeakers

Sorry it was Hayes not Van Buren.  
  And in the USA slavery is not legal therefore in the realm BDSM selling of a slave would be consensual.


Exactly.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 10:32:32 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

[this slave believes the ones who risked their lives and ran away from their Master's probably thought the decision over more than once and decided they would CHOOSE not to be slave anymore, did that make them not "real" slaves when they came to the conclusion that they would rather break the law and risk ending their life than serve as a slave for one more minute?  when did their identity as "slave" end?


quote:

They never chose to be a slave in the first place!


when did this slave say that they didn't choose it to begin with?
 
do you disagree that the ones who ran away exercised a choice, regardless of what the law of the land decreed?
 
what about the orphaned boy who ran away from his owners, was he a "real" slave because his dead parents were the ones who "consented" to ownership, then died, leaving him at the mercy of their owner?
 
or do you really believe it was so cut and dry?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/30/2007 10:34:17 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 11:16:00 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		A *slave* that is taken or forced may not view themselves as a slave, despite the nature of their circumstances.

You said that many slaves say* this is not a choice, this is not a role, it is the way I am*........I'd surmise that they are describing their nature/feelings/urges etc.......I'm sure people have slave-like tendencies and submissive characters  but in bdsm terms ........what they DO with those IS their choice. They aren't snatched from the streets.

agirl




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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: So you think you are really a slave.... - 1/30/2007 11:16:47 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		my Master has every right to sell or give me to another. it would be devastating to me, but i would have to accept it as when i became a slave, it was with the understanding that i was truly becoming this Man's property, for him to do with WHATEVER he wills. no limits, no buts.

this is not a game to me or the living out of some elaborate fantasy. the thought of being a slave doesn't get me all hot and bothered. but it's the only way of life that can possibily give me the purpose and meaning that i need. i also came into this with a full understanding of what it truly means to be property, with no more power, freedom or free will. so i understood that i could be bought and sold if that is what he wished. my Master gave his former slave to another Master, who still owns her to this day. she was very unhappy at first, but in time grew to love this Master. there are those who would say, well, if it wasn't what she truly wanted, why not just walk/run away? go to the police if need be. the law of the land says you have the right to this, that and the other. such people simply have no idea what it means to be owned.

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