quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Since you and your mother and stepfather went to anti war marches does that not make them and you traitors by the same definition?

    No.  They worked within the established framework of dissent.  I may refer to the Iraq War protest bundle in a lot of disparaging terms, but traitor has never been one of them.

Loyality to a lie is not loyality but foolishness...If we were buds and I asked you to bring your pick up truck and help me move and then you found out you were actually helping me to rob someones home would you continue to be loyal to me and finish robbing the place or would you tell me that you were not interested in my criminal scam?
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Since you and your mother and stepfather went to anti war marches does that not make them and you traitors by the same definition?

   No.  They worked within the established framework of dissent.  I may refer to the Iraq War protest bundle in a lot of disparaging terms, but traitor has never been one of them.

Loyality to a lie is not loyality but foolishness...If we were buds and I asked you to bring your pick up truck and help me move and then you found out you were actually helping me to rob someones home would you continue to be loyal to me and finish robbing the place or would you tell me that you were not interested in my criminal scam?
thompson

    That may be the worst analogy I've ever seen, Thom.  I'm a desert dweller too though, and sometimes we just have to make do with what we have.  Let's chop this piece of junk up though, and see if we can't duct tape something useful out of it..

     First, just how much loyalty does one owe to a 'bud?'  That's a pretty casual relationship with no comparison to the responsibilities of citizenship.  We can do better.  I was raised to believe there are obligations to family and the relationship of a junior member of the family to the patriarch/matriarch of a tightly knit large family could be compared to the relationship of a citizen to government.  Let's say you are my Grandmother.

   Second, while the debate about the legality of Vietnam can go on endlessly, there is no earthly authority sufficient to prosecute it.  Therefore, a comparison to a prosecutable offense like robbery/burglary is completely inapt.  My objection would have to be on moral or ethical grounds.  Let's use abortion.

    So you, my grandmother, recruit me and my truck for a full day thing.  You aren't completely clear about what we are doing, something about helping children.  It turns out that the tables and chairs are for the protesters outside an abortion clinic, and the boxes are full of posters designed to revolt women are already having a stressy kind of day.  I refuse to participate in any way.  Now we have an analogy to domestic protest and dissent.  If a group of counter-protesters shows up and I join them in yelling insults at you and perhaps mention your incontinence problem, I have reached the level of Ms Fonda's participation in North Vietnamese propaganda.  To stretch this analogy far enough to encompass her breach of faith with the POW's, the other side moves in on you, breaks your table, rips up your posters and ultimately flings soiled diapers at you while you are crying on the gound.  I join in this as well and then drive home without you.

   Now, am I still invited to Sunday dinner at Gramma's house?  Does everybody have to be nice to me at the next family reunion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"Second, while the debate about the legality of Vietnam can go on endlessly, there is no earthly authority sufficient to prosecute it. "

It's less about prosecution then facilitation of the personal judgment of the moral correctness or evil of the war.

If it was unlawful, the US was wrong to participate, and that makes resistance BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY justified.

After all, doesn't the Declaration of Independence reserve us the right to overthrow whatever government we have, should it stop acting in the best interests of The People?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"Second, while the debate about the legality of Vietnam can go on endlessly, there is no earthly authority sufficient to prosecute it. "

It's less about prosecution then facilitation of the personal judgment of the moral correctness or evil of the war.

If it was unlawful, the US was wrong to participate, and that makes resistance BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY justified.

After all, doesn't the Declaration of Independence reserve us the right to overthrow whatever government we have, should it stop acting in the best interests of The People?

yep until they take our guns away

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Rumtiger:
What is it exactly that makes the "boots on the ground" sacrosanct?  We were fighting an illegal war.  We were war criminals we were murderers but mostly we were tree snuffers.  When we could not find the "enemy" we just broke stuff up for the hell of it...they were called "targets of opportunity"  If you do not believe this perhaps you should acquaint yourself with names like Cam Ne and Mei Lei.  Since you were never there and you seem to have a limited knowledge of that conflict you look to be standing in pretty shallow water. 
I am curious how you might behave towards "boots on the ground" were you to find yourself, once you join the service, as a prison guard at Gitmo,  Would you treat your charges as honorable warriors or otherwise? 
thompson

Dont ever patronize me again.
I was not aware that I was patronizing you.  Please explane.

I'm well aware of the military's job being to kill people and break stuff.
Actually that is not the job of the military.
 
 
And my reason for being in this thread in the first place was not about policies, politics or fucked up shit in Vietnam and i've made that pretty fucking clear by now, that goes for you too fargle.
You talk a lot about what you are not here for but you do not say why you are here.

if today you where to call me or my brother (a Marine whose already served his tours in Iraq)
You are not a marine so please do not include yourself.
If your brother is a marine then he knows that there is no maximum number of tours that he can be assigned to.


those same things, it wouldent be any different then Vietnam decades ago, not because of policy and not because of any shit that happened, it's because we are not in charge of what happens, we're just there to do our job, do what we are told to do, or in the words of my brother: "do what is necessary so that we came back alive."
The marine corps spends a great deal of time training its men as to the difference between lawful orders and unlawful orders.  It is a court martial offence to obey an unlawful order.  Thus your "do what is necessary..."bumper sticker logic does not apply.

You think the soldiers had any real say about where they went, where they fought or why they went?
Actually they do,,,if you have the personal courage to "do the right thing"
Going after them means your going after those with the least power in the situation, those without a real choice,
We have a voluntary military that means that if you choose to join it implies that you agree with what you will be doing.

it makes people like Jane Fonda cowards, and people who would do the same as her cowards,
People like Muhamad Ali and Jane Fonda put their carrears on the line...Did you know that when Ali refused induction he was stripped of his title and not allowed to box. 

not cowards because they dident fight, thats our right as Americans to join the military or not, but it seems pretty fucking cowardly to me to attack those who simply had to do things without a say.

take your deabte about policy and the rest of the political bullshit and shove it, its not what i'm here for.
Why exactly are you here if you do not wish to discuss?

And by the way, what I intend to do in the military, and what goes on in my head isent your business unless I want it to be.
So you have said most eloquently on several occasions.
You also seem to have a little problem responding to direct questions which makes discussion with you more than a little difficult.
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     Just a combination of LA county air and sleep deprivation, Thom.  I gave that other stuff up years ago (why???  You got some???).

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

    Just a combination of LA county air and sleep deprivation, Thom.  I gave that other stuff up years ago (why???  You got some???).

WyrdRich:
Mine  comes from the U.S, government stockpiles and is delivered by uniformed  emisary of the U.S. government. 
My analogy was sound and yours was, I am sure, ment in jest because you have a really difficult time admitting that I am anywhere close to being right...let alone being spot on.
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     First, just how much loyalty does one owe to a 'bud?' 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

    First, just how much loyalty does one owe to a 'bud?' 

I suppose you are not well read on the subject of psychologically acclimating new recruits to serving in the armed forces.

Most of the things a recruit endures at boot camp is designed to disconnect their loyalty to anything except their unit.   They are paired up, your buddy screws up, cant make a drill, etc., and you are punished along with that person.  Eventually, your connection to your buddy and the corp is the most important connection you have in life, and one you will die defending the way a mother would kill to save her children.

What makes the US military the most fearsome fighting force the world has ever seen is not just about the toys they are sent into battle with.  It is about the psychological conditioning to remove the societal conditioning that says killing other people is bad.

Sinergy 

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

"Second, while the debate about the legality of Vietnam can go on endlessly, there is no earthly authority sufficient to prosecute it. "

It's less about prosecution then facilitation of the personal judgment of the moral correctness or evil of the war.

If it was unlawful, the US was wrong to participate, and that makes resistance BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY justified.

After all, doesn't the Declaration of Independence reserve us the right to overthrow whatever government we have, should it stop acting in the best interests of The People?

yep until they take our guns away

Or by say, preventing the effective organization, drill, and use of Well Regulated Militias not under federal control. Did you know it's unlawful in New York to drill, as unorganized Militia, in uniforms?

And getting people together, with these No-Fly Lists is harder than ever.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

WyrdRich:
I have not a clue what "big boy juice" is.
You were wrong and I was right about where the Japs practiced bombing pearl harbor....and...
My analogy about helping me rob someone is valid and yours is just silly. 
But
Thats ok cuz it is fun to watch you extracting your foot from your mouth,,,,you are getting pretty good at it.[;)] perhaps one day you will learn to be polite also but then you might not be as much fun.
thompson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

    First, just how much loyalty does one owe to a 'bud?' 

I suppose you are not well read on the subject of psychologically acclimating new recruits to serving in the armed forces.

Most of the things a recruit endures at boot camp is designed to disconnect their loyalty to anything except their unit.   They are paired up, your buddy screws up, cant make a drill, etc., and you are punished along with that person.  Eventually, your connection to your buddy and the corp is the most important connection you have in life, and one you will die defending the way a mother would kill to save her children.

What makes the US military the most fearsome fighting force the world has ever seen is not just about the toys they are sent into battle with.  It is about the psychological conditioning to remove the societal conditioning that says killing other people is bad.

Sinergy 

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

   First, just how much loyalty does one owe to a 'bud?' 

I suppose you are not well read on the subject of psychologically acclimating new recruits to serving in the armed forces.

Most of the things a recruit endures at boot camp is designed to disconnect their loyalty to anything except their unit.   They are paired up, your buddy screws up, cant make a drill, etc., and you are punished along with that person.  Eventually, your connection to your buddy and the corp is the most important connection you have in life, and one you will die defending the way a mother would kill to save her children.

What makes the US military the most fearsome fighting force the world has ever seen is not just about the toys they are sent into battle with.  It is about the psychological conditioning to remove the societal conditioning that says killing other people is bad.

Sinergy 

    God, I love CM's collection of experts on things they have never done.  You went through Boot when exactly?  But that's ok, you read a book about it while getting paid to stand around and NOT work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

So we should wait till we are attacked in your backyard, before we { sorry you..} will repond. Just so I'm assured that you have the capabilities to insure our safety, what types of armaments do you stockpile?

quote:


No, I think that I and most responsible adults will let the appropriate people handle these types of fights.

quote:


I'd much prefer to have these fights overseas as well, If you havent visited ground zero in manhattan then maybe you should. You'll have a greater understanding why we need to fight outside US borders.

quote:


It gives them HOPE and steals it from our guys/gals over there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

    First, just how much loyalty does one owe to a 'bud?' 

I suppose you are not well read on the subject of psychologically acclimating new recruits to serving in the armed forces.

Most of the things a recruit endures at boot camp is designed to disconnect their loyalty to anything except their unit.   They are paired up, your buddy screws up, cant make a drill, etc., and you are punished along with that person.  Eventually, your connection to your buddy and the corp is the most important connection you have in life, and one you will die defending the way a mother would kill to save her children.

What makes the US military the most fearsome fighting force the world has ever seen is not just about the toys they are sent into battle with.  It is about the psychological conditioning to remove the societal conditioning that says killing other people is bad.

Sinergy 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
So what you are saying is that an individual who goes through boot camp after High School becomes an expert in psychological conditioning?

Confused,

Sinergy