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RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 10:55:53 AM   
Wulfchyld


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Joined: 12/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPoetress

To throw an age out there is impossible. Since every situation is different as is the person. A16 year old with an IQ of 185, should be prosecuted differently than a 16 year old with an IQ of 85. They are not the same. Their thought process is completely different.

I mean look at Doogie Howser.....

~poe


In what way?

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 11:16:55 AM   
sub4hire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

Well I think a driver’s license should be a daytime license till about 18, or 4 years of road driving experience.
 
Do you think sending children to prison is appropriate?


After googling the legal age to drive an automobile...it came up with ages through out the world.  Ranges from 13 to 18. 
If we give a 13 year old a license to drive an automobile and they go out and cause a 10 car pile up which nets 25 dead.  How should we convict them?
Do we send them to prison?  After all we gave them the license to kill in the first place by giving them the license.  Do we smack them on the hand and say do better next time?

I've recently come from an area of the country where the only children who were put in juvenile hall were murderers.  Carjack someone and you got a smack on the hand.  Murder someone and you saw the inside of juvenile hall until it got too full and you were released.
I'm now in a part of the country where the same child can ditch school and they will do time in juvenile hall. 
Due to overcrowding..etc.
We had a 3200 bed facility where I lived in California.  We now have a 35 bed facility here in Nebraska.

There are simply put some kids who are going to grow up criminals.  There are some who can reform themselves and become an asset to society.  Thankfully I am not the one who has to judge these kids.
That would be a hard job.  I can see good and bad in everyone. 
Should they go to prison, I think it should be a case by case basis.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 11:31:50 AM   
Wulfchyld


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Joined: 12/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
After googling the legal age to drive an automobile...it came up with ages through out the world.  Ranges from 13 to 18. 
If we give a 13 year old a license to drive an automobile and they go out and cause a 10 car pile up which nets 25 dead. 

 
That is a very unrealistic statement. Drunk drivers tend to be the majority shareholders on such things. I have seen people of all ages cause wrecks for different reasons. Some things are beyond control, weather, other people, faulty equipment.
 
quote:
How should we convict them?

 
See above.
 
quote:


Do we send them to prison?  After all we gave them the license to kill in the first place by giving them the license.  Do we smack them on the hand and say do better next time?

 
Here we could use Nazi methods. Astrologers have identified that most all serial killers have the same similarities in their charts. Lets just kill them at birth.
 
quote:


I've recently come from an area of the country where the only children who were put in juvenile hall were murderers.  Carjack someone and you got a smack on the hand.  Murder someone and you saw the inside of juvenile hall until it got too full and you were released.
I'm now in a part of the country where the same child can ditch school and they will do time in juvenile hall. 
Due to overcrowding..etc.
We had a 3200 bed facility where I lived in California.  We now have a 35 bed facility here in Nebraska.

 
Of course the easy button is build more prisons. Rehabilitation takes too long and is too hard. Spending billions on prisons is the best answer.
 
quote:


There are simply put some kids who are going to grow up criminals. 

 
Of course they are all from upper class families and have all the advantages.
 
quote:
There are some who can reform themselves and become an asset to society.  Thankfully I am not the one who has to judge these kids. That would be a hard job. 

 
We are in total agreement here.
 
quote:


I can see good and bad in everyone. 
Should they go to prison, I think it should be a case by case basis.

 
If it were case by case that would be very nice. However it isn’t. It is America being tuff on crime to the point of just being stupid.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 11:32:25 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		A view from the UK, where we do treat children as children.

Problem is, the children know damned well they cant be touched for anything less than murder if theyre under 14. And so they do as they damned well please and none can do a thing about it. Although of course, the law will still punish any adult who takes issue with such juvenile hoodlums, as if they were angels.

Its harsh I know, but I cant help but think that if a child wants to play adult games then he/she should accept adult rules, not hide behind his/her age when he/she is caught. And please dont think for a moment I'm talking here about the daft things most people did as young teenagers as a one off; these are little horrors (for whatever reason) who roam the city at night terrifying all and sundry. They know exactly what theyre doing.

E

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RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 11:39:16 AM   
MsPoetress


Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		Ok I was wrong, bad way to say it.

How do we tell who to prosecute as an adult or as a child?
  • Give each child a psyche test before we charge them?
  • Do the smarter ones get out of it easier by playing dumb?
  • Do we go on what the parents and neighbors say about the kid? (Because there not bias)
  • Do we base it on the crime?

~poe


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~poe

I'm mad, you're mad, we're all mad here, it's the fad for many a year, if you think we're crazy my dear, you're right cause I'M mad, YOU'RE mad, we're ALL mad here! - Mad Hatter

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 11:49:29 AM   
Wulfchyld


Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think prison is the answer. It seems to me that America has decided to throw away children rather than help them. They are focused on building more prisons than helping them. It seems logical to me that revamping the prison system to rehabilitate, rather than harden, would be a more viable solution.
 
Throwing a child in prison is just going to make a very dangerous person we have to contend with upon release. The easy way would be to keep them in prison indefinitely. I for one would rather pay to rehabilitate them so they could become a viable citizen than pay to house them forever.

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Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 11:55:54 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		I say all the ages should be raised, or at the very least earned in some way. Want to vote for the town council? spend a couple of afternoons in the library cramming for an exam on town history and legislation, and a couple of afternoons picking up trash in the park. Want to drink, a few evenings at an AA meeting or a shelter as a helper, before driving perhaps a few trips out with an accident investigation specialist looking at the mess created or spent in the ER helping mop the floors after a car crash victim comes in. The arbritary ages were in many cases set decades, perhaps even centuries ago when people left school and worked, and married and had children and died at much younger ages.

On the criminality issue, thats a tough one, the choices between generally right or generally wrong, say theft, assault etc is a lot easier choice to make than Mr Public or Mrs Average for city mayor, there are far more variables involved. I guess also the number of variables also affects the choice to drive, to drink, to sign up to server etc

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:02:20 PM   
MsPoetress


Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		What about juvenile repeat offenders? When do you say enough is enough?

~poe

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~poe

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:03:47 PM   
Wulfchyld


Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline 		Again that is incarceration and not rehabilitation.


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Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:10:46 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPoetress
What about juvenile repeat offenders? When do you say enough is enough?
~poe


speaking for myself

Offence 1, An attempt at rehab with a small punitive element (trash collecting, graffiti scrubbing etc along with training in a practical skill, say carpentry), there has to be a punitive element to prevent people using crime as a free college.

Offence 2, Purely punitive and very harsh. We tried being nice and gave you a chance to better yourself, now you are going to pay for your crimes.

Offence 2.5 - for very rare "last chances" hard labour, confined unless working, no tv/radio/magazines etc. Short sentences that are so harsh they feel like 4 years for every year served.

Offence 3, Key? What Key?

Obviously more serious crimes enter the system at different places. Ted Bundy would be straight in as if a 3rd offence as an example

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:18:33 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		There was a broadcast interview a decade or so ago, with a police sergeant on the Isle Of Man (an island between England and Ireland that runs more or less as an autonomous country).

This sergeant was one of those called to punish offenders by way of birching, which was still done in the 70s on the IOM (maybe later even).

His comment was, "they never came back a second time"

E

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:20:17 PM   
Wulfchyld


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Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

There was a broadcast interview a decade or so ago, with a police sergeant on the Isle Of Man (an island between England and Ireland that runs more or less as an autonomous country).

This sergeant was one of those called to punish offenders by way of birching, which was still done in the 70s on the IOM (maybe later even).

His comment was, "they never came back a second time"

E


Oh hell yes!

Here they made it a crime to spank our kids. Now most of the criminals are kids.

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:20:38 PM   
MsPoetress


Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline 		Seems fair to a point, but I am curious on how we determine to prosecute a child as an adult.

~poe

< Message edited by MsPoetress -- 2/6/2007 12:22:12 PM >

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I'm mad, you're mad, we're all mad here, it's the fad for many a year, if you think we're crazy my dear, you're right cause I'M mad, YOU'RE mad, we're ALL mad here! - Mad Hatter

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:20:45 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		1. Harsh penalties only create harder criminals.

2. Locking someone up is more expensive than education and rehabilitation.

Juvenile offenders exist because adult society has failed. If adults got their own house in order there wouldn't be so many juvenile offenders.

If anyone needs punishing it is the adults that have failed the juveniles.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/6/2007 12:22:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:34:31 PM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

1. Harsh penalties only create harder criminals.

2. Locking someone up is more expensive than education and rehabilitation.

Juvenile offenders exist because adult society has failed. If adults got their own house in order there wouldn't be so many juvenile offenders.

If anyone needs punishing it is the adults that have failed the juveniles.


The problem with punishing the adults is that their hands have already been tied. Thanks to bleeding hearts, disciplinary actions of children by their parent is now often criminal. If you are going to punish the adult, at least give them back the right to bend the little brat over their knee and spank their ass.

Honestly, when I was a child, a parent would not hesitate to smack a rugrat on the ass for throwning a temper tantrum in a grocery store. Perhaps this is why my generation was not inclined to gun down fellow students out of annoyance. These days we are told that instead of punishing them, we should reward positive behavior. So if little Timmy goes to school 3 days in a row, we are supposed to buy him a new Nintendo game. Excuse me, but bullshit! The little monster is SUPPOSED to go to school! We don't get rewarded for what we are SUPPOSED to do. We don't get pulled over by a police officer and get handed a $20 for obeying the speed limit, but we damned sure get fined for breaking it.


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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:41:31 PM   
Lorgrom


Posts: 98
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If anyone needs punishing it is the adults that have failed the juveniles.


Close, if anyone needs to be punished it is the society that hinders the parents ability to punish the children. Which by the way is whats happening. Society is paying for decades of the corner time BS. Corner time did nothing for anyone I know who is not an adult.

If the child in question was getting in trouble and only got the corner time/time out/soft approach. Most of them have continued along that path. The kids whos parents did spank them. Did hold the child accountible for their actions. Have grown up to be productive members of scoiety.

Of course most parents anymore grew up in households where they themselves were only subjected to the time out mentality. So how did they learn how to tell when a stern grounding would do the trick vs a one time slap on the butt?

Yes you still need to guard against abuse. But the USA as gone way to far. A parent fears slapping a child across the butt. Becouse the kids say things like "if you hit me I will tell my teacher/friends parents/police". 

That is where the real failure is. Give the power back to the parents. Teach the parents when grounding is approperate and when a spanking is in order. Rather then the goverment agencies, whos people are always looking (and many times make) for the abuser (even though the defination of abuse has gotten more and more encumpasing).

There is a lot of logic to the statement. A child should fear and respect their parents. A parents job is not to be the childs friend. But rather a protector and teacher.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:44:01 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

There was a broadcast interview a decade or so ago, with a police sergeant on the Isle Of Man (an island between England and Ireland that runs more or less as an autonomous country).

This sergeant was one of those called to punish offenders by way of birching, which was still done in the 70s on the IOM (maybe later even).

His comment was, "they never came back a second time"

E


Oh hell yes!

Here they made it a crime to spank our kids. Now most of the criminals are kids.


Hmmm. It was mostly grown men who were birched.

Saves a fortune on prisons

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:47:25 PM   
Wulfchyld


Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hmmm. It was mostly grown men who were birched.

Saves a fortune on prisons

E


Its all good to me!

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:53:40 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hmmm. It was mostly grown men who were birched.

Saves a fortune on prisons

E


Its all good to me!


Hey!

Its not meant to be fun, right!? LOL!

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Lower the voting age to 10 - 2/6/2007 12:57:31 PM   
Wulfchyld


Posts: 2618
Joined: 12/7/2005
Status: offline 		It depends on which end of the birch your on.


unless your a switch.

_____________________________

Loki, forum god of Mischief

Submission is not a gift... it is plunder!
Where there is a whip, there is a way!
Dom/mes of a feather, beat the f*ck out of slaves together


(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 40
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