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ORIGINAL: rosanegra

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ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

1. Harsh penalties only create harder criminals.

2. Locking someone up is more expensive than education and rehabilitation.

Juvenile offenders exist because adult society has failed. If adults got their own house in order there wouldn't be so many juvenile offenders.

If anyone needs punishing it is the adults that have failed the juveniles.

The problem with punishing the adults is that their hands have already been tied. Thanks to bleeding hearts, disciplinary actions of children by their parent is now often criminal. If you are going to punish the adult, at least give them back the right to bend the little brat over their knee and spank their ass.

Honestly, when I was a child, a parent would not hesitate to smack a rugrat on the ass for throwning a temper tantrum in a grocery store. Perhaps this is why my generation was not inclined to gun down fellow students out of annoyance. These days we are told that instead of punishing them, we should reward positive behavior. So if little Timmy goes to school 3 days in a row, we are supposed to buy him a new Nintendo game. Excuse me, but bullshit! The little monster is SUPPOSED to go to school! We don't get rewarded for what we are SUPPOSED to do. We don't get pulled over by a police officer and get handed a $20 for obeying the speed limit, but we damned sure get fined for breaking it.

The problem is that parents don't discipline their children. They just spank/beat them. They don't explain why something is bad, they just provide negative reinforcement. Who here has heard a parent answer with, "Because I said so." when a child asks why they shouldn't or should do something. Why don't we give our children real answers?
I personally was raised in a very abusive environment. The fact that I didn't end up a criminal surprises me. There is a certain point at which a line must be drawn between punishment and and abuse. There is a place in which we can teach our children how to behave without instilling in them the idea that violence is how you teach people.

I would argue that kids shooting other kids is because they think that is how you show someone they are wrong - by hurting them. I would argue that a solution to truancy in school is to make school more effective. As someone who fought for every inch of actual "education" I got in school, I can tell you that the current system we have is not working. Why should we force our children to endure a system that is inadequate? Why the hell shouldn't we reward them for putting up with it?

As for your example of punishment of speeding on the roads... You made my point very well for me. People get fined for speeding. They do it anyway, because the consequences are acceptable in return for the payoff. Do you think people would speed anymore if there was a possibility of them being pulled over and handed a $20 bill for going the speed limit? Hmmmmmmm.... we may be onto something here...

The current system isn't working. Time to think of new solutions.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: Lorgrom

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If anyone needs punishing it is the adults that have failed the juveniles.

Close, if anyone needs to be punished it is the society that hinders the parents ability to punish the children. Which by the way is whats happening. Society is paying for decades of the corner time BS. Corner time did nothing for anyone I know who is not an adult.

If the child in question was getting in trouble and only got the corner time/time out/soft approach. Most of them have continued along that path. The kids whos parents did spank them. Did hold the child accountible for their actions. Have grown up to be productive members of scoiety.

Of course most parents anymore grew up in households where they themselves were only subjected to the time out mentality. So how did they learn how to tell when a stern grounding would do the trick vs a one time slap on the butt?

Yes you still need to guard against abuse. But the USA as gone way to far. A parent fears slapping a child across the butt. Becouse the kids say things like "if you hit me I will tell my teacher/friends parents/police". 

That is where the real failure is. Give the power back to the parents. Teach the parents when grounding is approperate and when a spanking is in order. Rather then the goverment agencies, whos people are always looking (and many times make) for the abuser (even though the defination of abuse has gotten more and more encumpasing).

There is a lot of logic to the statement. A child should fear and respect their parents. A parents job is not to be the childs friend. But rather a protector and teacher.

Lorgrom:
It is not against the law to spank your children in the U.S, It is against the law to beat your children and the courts have shown that they understand the difference.
As an example I used to live next door to some people and the day the 15 year old told his mom he was going to report her for spanking him she put him in the car and took him to the police station and took him inside and told him to report her to the sergent behind the desk. 
The sergent listened to the young man and when he got to the part about why..."all I did was take the car out for a spin" ... the sergent explained what GTA (grand theft auto) ment and said he would be willing to take the mothers complaint against the child for GTA but that spanking did not rise to conditions for child abuse so he was not going to allow the mother to be charged.  That was the last time the child was ever spanked or needed to be spanked.  This happened in Costa Mesa California in the mid 80s
thompson

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ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

Hmmm, 10 year olds in the military would mean smaller targets. I see a certain logic here.

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All six kids who are now adults. All have long police records. All but one can be found five to six nights each week drinking themselves silly at the bar. And finaly three of them were put in jail for domestic battery.

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ORIGINAL: MsPoetress

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All six kids who are now adults. All have long police records. All but one can be found five to six nights each week drinking themselves silly at the bar. And finaly three of them were put in jail for domestic battery.

You blame all that on spanking?

~poe

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ORIGINAL: domiguy

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ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

Hmmm, 10 year olds in the military would mean smaller targets. I see a certain logic here.

Only thing written here that makes sense....also smaller caskets...could pile a shit load of  'em on a plane...save fuel.

Brilliant!

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Using physical violence, only teaches children to be violent.
 
I could come up with an alternate 'solution' ... people that can't out smart a child, such that they have to resort to violence, are perhaps too stupid to have children.
 
In keeping with the constant search for fact-based argument ... can you provide any data at all, that suggests that children that were spanked, ended up being more productive members of society?
 
Or, perhaps this is just another one of those "back in the good ol' days", notions.  

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ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Using physical violence, only teaches children to be violent.
 
I could come up with an alternate 'solution' ... people that can't out smart a child, such that they have to resort to violence, are perhaps too stupid to have children.
 
In keeping with the constant search for fact-based argument ... can you provide any data at all, that suggests that children that were spanked, ended up being more productive members of society?
 
Or, perhaps this is just another one of those "back in the good ol' days", notions.  

Sure, we can do fact based. Lets look at violent crime ( in this case murder ) statistics in civilized countries that allow for corporal punishment of children. Japan, Greece, Hong Kong, the U.K., Canada, Italy, Spain, Germany, Australia, France, Norway, and Finland ALL have lower violent crime rates than America. The U.S. is 24th on the list, and all 33 countries below it on the list have lower violent crime rates than we do, and all allow corporal punishment of children. I left the underdeveloped nations off of the list, as well as the ones that have weakened governments which would reflect political reasons for increased violence.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

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ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld

If they are going to charge young children as adults they should make them adults. Lower the voting, drinking, smoking, blah blah blah to age 10.
 

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It is a violent world, and children, 'bless em, seem to understand that on an intrinsic level.

"Never start a fight. ALWAYS FINISH a fight."

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ORIGINAL: aSlavesLife

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Using physical violence, only teaches children to be violent.
 
I could come up with an alternate 'solution' ... people that can't out smart a child, such that they have to resort to violence, are perhaps too stupid to have children.
 
In keeping with the constant search for fact-based argument ... can you provide any data at all, that suggests that children that were spanked, ended up being more productive members of society?
 
Or, perhaps this is just another one of those "back in the good ol' days", notions.  

Sure, we can do fact based. Lets look at violent crime ( in this case murder ) statistics in civilized countries that allow for corporal punishment of children. Japan, Greece, Hong Kong, the U.K., Canada, Italy, Spain, Germany, Australia, France, Norway, and Finland ALL have lower violent crime rates than America. The U.S. is 24th on the list, and all 33 countries below it on the list have lower violent crime rates than we do, and all allow corporal punishment of children. I left the underdeveloped nations off of the list, as well as the ones that have weakened governments which would reflect political reasons for increased violence.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita