RE: Ending homelessness in America

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HydroMaster -> RE: Ending homelessness in America (2/7/2007 7:47:57 PM)
Ok, well will you figure out where it went and get it back so we can look into giving it to the homeless. Until then, (going back to original subject of post)where can we get money for this without raising taxes through the roof? I support the crisis center I used to work at during school, but that's not much of a dent. If taxes get raised to pay for homeless programs it just means I can't give as much to the crisis center. I'd rather help out my local charities and have that same money diffused through the system for administrative salaries.

SusanofO -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/7/2007 8:10:13 PM)
kindaeasy69: I saw that documentary - I watched it with rapt attention. While I admit there are homeless people with that undeniable self-destructive streak, such as the subject of the film had, there are also many homelesss women and children (and men, too), who do not fit into that category. I don't think it is possible to categorize the homeless in this way. I know that plenty of them have drug and alcohol abuse problems - but just as many are escaping domestic-violence situations, or have lost a job with no savings, and have no relatives to help them out, or other reasons. For the person who said, in effect - "How can anyone be homeless? Don't they have relatives to help them?" etc. You sounded sort of like Marie Antoinette, just before the French Revolution started: "Let them eat cake"...C'mon - you can't seriously have been so entrenched in your middle or upper-middle calss life-style all these years, that it has never occurred to you there exist: 1) People who either have no living relatives, or who do not speak to or get along with them (for whatever reason). 2) People who have no savings and lost a job? etc. The can't pay the mortgage and lost their home, etc. Or can't pay rent. They lose their home and have nowhere else to go. 3) Chronically mentally ill people who just don't function well in the day-to-day, whom nobody else has taken any responsibility for housing. 4) And the list of possibilities as far as how someone could become home-less continues... - Susan

pahunkboy -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/7/2007 8:40:47 PM)
I volunteered to do the overnights a many occassion at our area homeless shelter. the people were interesting. one memory that sticks out was a vietnam amputee who secretly handed me a stack of postcards to mail. he did not trust anyone. i looked at his scribbling on the cards- VERY SAD. inadqate postage on 1 or 2. he wrote the newspaper- the govt- his brother. i promised him- ild mail em- and i did. later i seen with my own eyes the director "slowed down" mail to residents. letters from disablity- welfare- time dated stuff! i was sorta mad at her.-as a person must be able to recieve mail. we pretty much send them on to the next town up the line- when the 30 days is up. [and vice versa] yup- put them on a bus- and it is someone elses problem. !!

kindaeasy69 -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/7/2007 9:16:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO kindaeasy69: I saw that documentary - I watched it with rapt attention. While I admit there are homeless people with that undeniable self-destructive streak, such as the subject of the film had, there are also many homelesss women and children (and men, too), who do not fit into that category. I don't think it is possible to categorize the homeless in this way. - Susan Susan: Please note I said quote: ORIGINAL: kindaeasy69 While the film is only one individuals experience, it was very interesting to watch. in my original post.

kindaeasy69 -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/7/2007 9:41:15 PM)
I’m not saying there isn’t a problem with homelessness in the United States. However, after reading this thread I did a little research of my own. "While there is no one agreed upon definition, one definition originally developed as part of the McKinney-Vento Act of 1987 federal legislation,[1] describes a "homeless" person as being: 1. an individual who lacks a fixed, regular, and adequate nighttime residence; 2. and an individual who has a primary nighttime residence that is-- 1. a supervised publicly or privately operated shelter designed to provide temporary living accommodations (including welfare hotels, congregate shelters, and transitional housing for the mentally ill); 2. an institution that provides a temporary residence for individuals intended to be institutionalized; or 3. a public or private place not designed for, or ordinarily used as, a regular sleeping accommodation for human beings. " Ok I call bullshit already. How does not a having a fixed residence make one homeless? So the retired couple who sold the house and bounce around the country in an RV are homeless? Have you seen some of those things, they are nicer than my home. What about the couple who lives on a sailboat or yacht? They are homeless too? Ok if that isn’t bad enough: "Critics argue that such a definition does not account for all of those who are in-effect homeless, and therefore excludes many needy individuals from certain federal assistance programs who do not meet eligibility requirements. Proponents of an expanded definition of homelessness cite certain at-risk living situations which some believe should be included: Multiple families (or individuals) doubling or tripling up in insufficient living space. One of many documented incidents reports 25 individuals sharing a single house. Weekly “rental” of economy motel rooms. With a growing lack of affordable housing across the country, low-wage earners are increasingly residing in cheap (and often ill-maintained) motels. Individuals living in their automobiles. Often the vehicles used in such a manner do not even operate but simply provide shelter from the elements. Exclusive “couch-surfers.” Instead of sleeping on the streets or in a shelter, otherwise homeless persons are forced to rely on the hospitality of willing friends or family for a place to sleep. Patience for such arrangements often runs dry, and many soon find themselves without a place to stay. " If the defination is expanded to include these four additional catagories of “at-risk” people, I have been homeless, as I lived on a friends couch for a couple of weeks when I decided to get a divorcee. Was I really “at-risk”? No, I was looking for an apartment. I would suggest it is the idea of expanding the definition to include these "at-risk" people, which makes many disbelieve the numbers as well as if there really is a problem. The following seems pretty grim, but in all honesty, only 1% of the population is homeless at some point during the year. Considering the number of Rving seniors, that doesn’t worry me so much. "As many as 3.5 million people experience homelessness in a given year (1% of the entire U.S. population or 10% of its poor), and about 842,000 people in any given week. 80% of those who experience homelessness do so for less than 3 weeks. They typically have more personal, social, or economic resources to draw upon. 10% are homeless for up to two months. They cite lack of available or affordable housing as responsible for the delay. 10% are so called “chronic” and remain without housing for extended periods of time on a frequent basis. They typically struggle with mental illness, substance abuse, or both." As far as spending money to "fix" the problem. How much is enough? The most up to date number I found was over $4 billion annually, and I believe this is only Federal money, not state, local or private. See http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_wsj-homeless_in_america.htm So after reading all that, I started to run the numbers a little: Now for those who say the problem is primarily caused by: Unaffordable housing – please explain this, I live in Houston and while not the most expensive city by an means, I know for a fact you can get a efficiency apt all bills paid for $250-300 a month. Is it nice? No Would I want to live there? No But it’s there and it’s better than being homeless. This works out to $3600 a year. Low wages – 40 hours a week at minimum wage is roughly $10,000 a year before taxes Even if you figure 10% in income taxes, which I have a hard time believing, that would still leave a net of $5400 a year. I’m just not seeing the problem here. Would living off $5400 a year be easy? No Who told any of us life is easy. The question is, is it possible? I say absolutely. Quite honestly I’m just getting tired of paying for everyone else’s problems and issues. It’s not my fault someone is in the situation they are in, and it’s not my responsibility to get them out of it. Also, perhaps if we cut out all these “programs” which suck the money from those who are employed via income tax, and those who spend via sales tax, fewer people would be living paycheck to paycheck. Unless otherwise stated these quotes all come from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States

SusanofO -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/7/2007 10:22:46 PM)
kindaeasy69: Thanks for looking up all the stats. I am impressed and it was interesting reading. Sorry I missed that caveat in your previous post (my bad. I apologize). - Susan

MrKite -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/7/2007 10:38:18 PM)
I can't believe that anyone could actually say it's not my fault and it's not my problem. We live in the richest country in the world and half the world despises our morality. Nor can I believe that anyone could say such things publicly. We sit back on our rightous fat asses shouting to the world that we are the soceity that all others should model. We expect out children to learn their moral values from war mongers like bush. We shuffle our parents into homes when they interfere with our golf games. We ignore the homeless, the needy the underprivlaged, without any concept of understanding. Go ahead vote down your taxes and school levies and blame someone else when your children gradute unable to read. Run of to church every sunday and tell god you are a good person worthy of a place and heaven. We are not only the richest nation in the world we are the largest nation of hypocrites. With the exception of a few that have posted most of you don't know a homeless person or what they have to deal with on a daily basis. Oh yeah, I'll happily give you $10,000 for a year and see if you can live on it. Besides rent don't forget food, heat, water, a phone, transportaition, you can't own a car becuase gas and insurance doesn't fit into that budget. So you have to take the bus. Oh right that bus that doesn't serve all neighborhoods and doesn't take you near most of the jobs which are sprawled all over the place. But thats ok you have an extra 3 hours a day to catch the transfers. Don't get sick because you don't go to a primary care doctor, the only choice you have is the emergency room at the hospital. Since you are opposed to paying taxes for other peoples problems you don't qualify for medicare, or Social security. If you're lucky you might get a day labour job for a week in some environment where you breath noxious fumes and risk losing a finger becuase safety and training aren't a priority for temp workers. But I'll tell you what, lets teach the arabs a lesson in democracy. As one of my collueges said the other day, "Those sand niggers are stupid." Here we are trying to tell a civilisation that existed for thousands of years before we came alone and brutilized the natives we found here, that we know better. Yeah the problems here are yours, mine and ours. The homeless and the poor don't exist in a vacuum. They got there because we failed to be humans.

quietkitten -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/7/2007 10:58:31 PM)
There has been a huge job boom where I live... but housing has not kept up. In the city I live we went from around 150 - 200 homeless (that we aware of) in a city of 90,000 to over 750 homeless in a city of 100,000 in less than one year. that is a huge per capita increase and most of these people are working homeless .. Many people have begun renting a room in their house for a reasonable amount to a person who has no where else to go. It is a small thing, but it has made a real difference. I realize that it is not always an option, but it may be one more way that an average person can help decrease the problems of homelessness.

kindaeasy69 -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 12:23:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO kindaeasy69: Thanks for looking up all the stats. I am impressed and it was interesting reading. Sorry I missed that caveat in your previous post (my bad. I apologize). - Susan Not necessary.

kindaeasy69 -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 12:25:48 AM)
First of all, life is a bitch what more do I really need to say? But since this seems to be directed at me I'm going to respond. The first thing I think that we need to consider is no one is promised anything. Certainly not a nice house, and easy well paid job, a car, a computer, a cell phone, and certainly not cable tv. quote: ORIGINAL: MrKite I can't believe that anyone could actually say it's not my fault and it's not my problem. Where exactly did I sign on to take care of everyone in the world? I must have missed something. How is it my fault? We live in the richest country in the world and half the world despises our morality. Why do I care who judges me or despises me? Nor can I believe that anyone could say such things publicly. I'm not running for office, and I'm not seeking anyone’s approval. Also see First Amendment . We sit back on our rightous fat asses shouting to the world that we are the soceity that all others should model. My ass is hardly fat, and I'm not shouting anything of the such. We expect out children to learn their moral values from war mongers like bush. This is just ignorant, I would expect my children to learn values from me, and I wouldn't expect them to be raised or taught by someone else. It's called self-reliance. We shuffle our parents into homes when they interfere with our golf games. My mom is just fine, thanks for asking, and not in a home btw. We ignore the homeless, the needy the underprivlaged, without any concept of understanding. Go read The Underclass by Ken Auletta. I have tried to understand, but no I don't. Go ahead vote down your taxes and school levies and blame someone else when your children gradute unable to read. I do vote down taxes as much as I possibly can. I would never expect someone else or the public school system to teach my children (which I have none) anything. Run of to church every sunday and tell god you are a good person worthy of a place and heaven. I don't go to church, and he already knows. That was kind of personal wasn't it? We are not only the richest nation in the world we are the largest nation of hypocrites. Can you site a source on this one, cause you lost me here. With the exception of a few that have posted most of you don't know a homeless person or what they have to deal with on a daily basis. Got me there, should I stop the next homeless person I see and offer him a job? Why do I have to understand them? Do I ask anyone to understand me or my plight? Do I ask for help? If you want my help and my understanding, you’re asking too much. I owe neither. Oh yeah, I'll happily give you $10,000 for a year and see if you can live on it. If you want to give me 10k a year, I’ll give you my paypal account. As far as could I live on it, not even close, hell that would barely pays my school taxes for those kids I don't have. Besides rent don't forget food, heat, water, a phone, transportaition, you can't own a car becuase gas and insurance doesn't fit into that budget. So you have to take the bus. Rent is a requirement yes, and it should be the first priority. My example of $300 a month covered water, heat/electric. As for food, live like a college student. What are those things, Ramon noodles, like 2 for $1? Phone, since when do you absolutely have to have a phone? Your poor remember, kill the phone. And yes, no car for you, take the damn bus, or walk. Oh right that bus that doesn't serve all neighborhoods and doesn't take you near most of the jobs which are sprawled all over the place. But thats ok you have an extra 3 hours a day to catch the transfers. Life is a bitch, I'm sorry. Walk, it won't kill anyone. Or find a crappy apartment, near the crappy job. Don't get sick because you don't go to a primary care doctor, the only choice you have is the emergency room at the hospital. I choose not to have insurance. I could for $3,600+ a year. Hell $3600 a year is a week scuba diving in some tropical location; I’ll take that option. My doctor likes cash, and I like my doctor. And I'm pretty sure; this is not the land of "free" healthcare. If you want "free" healthcare move to Canada. But remember, first rule of economics "there is no such thing as a free lunch". Since you are opposed to paying taxes for other peoples problems you don't qualify for medicare, or Social security. Your right I don't. See the part about my doctor and his love of cash above. And I bet it would really piss you off to know that he just bought a Jag and he didn’t even have to trade in the Vette. If you're lucky you might get a day labour job for a week in some environment where you breath noxious fumes and risk losing a finger becuase safety and training aren't a priority for temp workers. Wow, that's amazing. Someone call OSHA. First of all day labors here don't deal with noxious fumes, they deal with heat, while mowing grass or building houses, and the like. And in my experience, which is a lot, they usually get more than minimum wage. However, why not just go work fast food, or as a bus boy? Life is full of hard work for less money than you think you deserve. But I'll tell you what, lets teach the arabs a lesson in democracy. As one of my collueges said the other day, "Those sand niggers are stupid." Here we are trying to tell a civilisation that existed for thousands of years before we came alone and brutilized the natives we found here, that we know better. This is kinda off topic...the topic is "Ending homelessness in America" Yeah the problems here are yours, mine and ours. The homeless and the poor don't exist in a vacuum. They got there because we failed to be humans. I haven't failed at anything. To me, that sounds like guilt talking. The difference to me is I stated facts and statistics, while you entire argument is based on feeling and emotions.

Nikolette -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 1:06:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy I seen on free speech tv- the idea presented was that if all vacant apartments were opened up- there would be no homeless in USA. Picture a downtown area. a store on the main level, the 2-3-4 stories of apartments VACANT. Why? Code. Lawsuits. and the like. Look around. Astounding that our legal system has created this monster! /foot stomp/ opinions, observations, comments? I don't think JUST providing housing solves any problems at all. There are so many issues to fix JUST with the homelessness that opening a door for someone to sleep in a room makes very little difference. It does help, but to a very stifled degree. I believe that the homeless people and mentally ill people deserve assistance, but not in the form of ONLY more beds. Someone posted an idea of a communal type situation which does help solve part of the issue. But some of these people need all sorts of Life Skills training, as well as adequate mental and physical health care. (and some of them... just like the freedom of being homeless, and some of them just need a little hand up. There are so many individual stories and situations that its a grey area and no way black or white.) And people are right we "shouldn't ~have~" to pay for it. It would benefit ourselves, our world and humanity if we could see beyond the greed of numbers and selfish effort to WANT to pay for it. But here is one thought in the midst of all of this.... Why is it acceptable to us to wait for the governement to pay for this? Here we have a decent sized group in consensus about one thing Help The Homeless. And that has power behind it. While we don't live in the same area, I know for certain that if we got up, walked away from the computer and started talking to people and moving some numbers and getting some things done we could help to set up private establishments in the near future to do some over all good. But I imagine we'd all rather sit back and complain about why the governement spent so much on such and such a thing and wait for a hand out from a (probably) shady government than actually DO anything about this real issue. Why? Because it takes sacrifice and dedication to helping our fellow man. Because its hard and a risk and might not work out. On and on the reasons go. Folks, being concerned just isn't enough anymore.

luckydog1 -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 2:02:47 AM)
Here we are trying to tell a civilisation that existed for thousands of years before we came alone and brutilized the natives we found here, that we know better. Which civilization do you think has been there for thousands of years? The entire area has been "brutalised" and ethnically cleansed at least 6 times. Arab civilization isn't thousands of years old. Unless they get to count the people they commited genocide on when they took over the region. But by that logic the American culture is 10,000 years old, as we get to count the people we slaughtered and raped also. But that does seem like a stupid line of reasoning.

Nikolette -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 2:04:17 AM)
luckydog1: Uh what? How is that in reply to me?

luckydog1 -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 2:07:29 AM)
My bad, its not supposed to be. It was to Mr kite.

meatcleaver -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 2:13:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kindaeasy69 I’m just not seeing the problem here. Would living off $5400 a year be easy? No Who told any of us life is easy. The question is, is it possible? I say absolutely. Quite honestly I’m just getting tired of paying for everyone else’s problems and issues. It’s not my fault someone is in the situation they are in, and it’s not my responsibility to get them out of it. Also, perhaps if we cut out all these “programs” which suck the money from those who are employed via income tax, and those who spend via sales tax, fewer people would be living paycheck to paycheck. When I read responses like this, all I can say is I'm glad I live in Europe, not that Europe is perfect heaven but at least there is a modicum of collective accountability for those unfortunate people that slip through the safety net. Though not enough in my book by far. Most people that are homeless have issues, mental health etc. Very few are simply on the street because they prefer it, maybe they have grown used to it and lack the confidence to get back into society but that is another issue. If I lived in a society where someone can be doing well one week, get ill or lose there job and be homeless very quickly, I think I would show more empathy towards my fellow man. A lover of mine said she heard on the Oprah Winfrey show (I apologize for this credible indepth source) that the average American is two pay checks away from living on the street. If this is the case, wouldn't it be a little better to help people up rather than ignoring them or stomping on the fingers of someone trying to climb out of the gutter?

UtopianRanger -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 2:37:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pantera quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver France has just past a law making it a human right to have a roof over ones head and a place to call home. Whether that will force local councils free up the resources or make commercial owners of empty properties provide those homes is another matter. I wish Britain would do the same but with Blair in power, I can't see it. The government doesn't make money- it takes it from other people. Why should it be my responsibility to house anybody other that my family?? If I want to donate to a charity, that's fine, but putting a gun to my head and forcing me I have to give money to house some bum is a violation of MY human rights. Pantera..... I'm proud of you..... it's been a good six to seven months, and you haven't lost a bit of your beautiful touch [8\|] - R

kindaeasy69 -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 3:16:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: kindaeasy69 I’m just not seeing the problem here. Would living off $5400 a year be easy? No Who told any of us life is easy. The question is, is it possible? I say absolutely. Quite honestly I’m just getting tired of paying for everyone else’s problems and issues. It’s not my fault someone is in the situation they are in, and it’s not my responsibility to get them out of it. Also, perhaps if we cut out all these “programs” which suck the money from those who are employed via income tax, and those who spend via sales tax, fewer people would be living paycheck to paycheck. When I read responses like this, all I can say is I'm glad I live in Europe, not that Europe is perfect heaven but at least there is a modicum of collective accountability for those unfortunate people that slip through the safety net. Though not enough in my book by far. Ok, fair enough. Most people that are homeless have issues, mental health etc. As one of my pervious posts stated “10% are so called “chronic” and remain without housing for extended periods of time on a frequent basis. They typically struggle with mental illness, substance abuse, or both." Basically I just haven’t been able to confirm your statement from my research. The issue of homeless having mental health issues is troubling, even to me. I am not saying I have a solution, however it is my understanding that those with these issues are provided for in some capacity. There are programs available to provide doctors and prescription drugs at no or very low cost. Also, they do receive income from Social Security, and possibly other sources. If we (as a country) were to increase spending in this area I would support it to a point but only if matched by a spending cut in other areas. However, what about people whose mental illness is due to their own poor choices? Such as those who “illness” has been caused by repeated drug overdoses. Very few are simply on the street because they prefer it, maybe they have grown used to it and lack the confidence to get back into society but that is another issue. I would agree, most (80%) are on the street for less than 3 weeks, another 10% up to two months, however these people do “get back to society”. If I lived in a society where someone can be doing well one week, get ill or lose there job and be homeless very quickly, I think I would show more empathy towards my fellow man. A lover of mine said she heard on the Oprah Winfrey show (I apologize for this credible indepth source) that the average American is two pay checks away from living on the street. I would not doubt this for a moment, and this is very much my point. If we as a nation didn’t allow the government to seize so much of our income, perhaps people would have the opportunity to save, which would prevent them from being just two paychecks away from being homeless. However this would also require self-reliance. If this is the case, wouldn't it be a little better to help people up rather than ignoring them or stomping on the fingers of someone trying to climb out of the gutter? I am proposing, it is wasteful spending on social programs that is causing hard working people to end up in the gutter in the first place.

kindaeasy69 -> RE: Ending homelesness in America (2/8/2007 3:26:24 AM)
I am really not trying to be an asshole here. I am however trying to remove the emotion and feelings, and discuss this based on facts or at least logic. I’m not trying to be mean and callous, but I do want people to take responsibility for their own lives and own decisions. If you would let me propose a scenario to everyone who feels that we should take care of anyone who looses his or her job and ends up homeless because they are living paycheck to paycheck. Person A is gainfully employed for 5 years after high school or college (your choice) and saves 2% of what they make. The rest of their money goes to pay for their monthly expenses, and if any is left over they buy something or move into a bigger place. They have a nice car, a nice house/apt, cable, a cell phone, a laptop, and designer clothes. Suddenly Person A looses their job, and their car breaks down. They spend most of their saving getting the car fixed, and the rest to cover the rent while they look for a new job. However before they find one, they are out of saving and out of money. A month later they are evicted, and they are now homeless. Should the government give Person A money it collect from the rest of us, so that Person A can continue to live in an apartment until he finds a new job and gets back on his feet? And if the government should give him the money, should Person A have to pay it back when he does find a new job?

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