Slavery and Obedience (Full Version)

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strikingamatch -> Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 7:44:25 AM)

How do you react when your slave hesitates to do as she is told?

I am talking of a case when she is told to do something that is very difficult for her, however, it is something which does not cross any of her hard limits.

If she eventually does as she is told, after repeated requests and after a few hours of cajoling ordering and discussion, does she get credit, or is she to be punished for taking her merry time?

Is immediate obedience a realistic and fair objective?



domguy33 -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 7:54:40 AM)

Yes, near-immediate obedience is a requirement in my household. They way you get it is by NOT asking for very difficult tasks to be done. Give her orders for things she can do and do well - she does them right away,eagerly, and everyone is happy.

domguy33



onestandingstill -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 7:55:51 AM)

I think if she did do something that was difficult and it was not just being resistant there's nothing to punish for.
It sounds like she WAS TRYING HARD to comply with your wishes.
Instead she should be praised for accomplishing the task for you.
suzanne



toservez -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 8:06:33 AM)

Well I am not a Master but to answer it anyway I would think/hope it depends on the situation.

Hesitation because you do not want to do something you do not like, pain in the neck or preference to do something else first is not a good thing and to me would be quite punishable and something that I would find quite upsetting.

Hesitation on something that is out there, a new experience in the physical or mental area of the “kink” things I think should be treated quite differently. Personally my opinion being able to ask questions and express your feelings is normal and healthy. Hesitation and refusal are two big different things. Doing some things the first time is just sometimes going to cause this reaction. If it persists on those things then I can see it being in issue but not when it is the first time on something.

Immediate obedience with the proper attitude on something the OP describes is certainly to be strived for but not a guarantee or should be just based on human nature. Dealing with your hesitation with the proper attitude and communication though is very important.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 8:13:57 AM)

This is a tough one and I'd agree that it'd depend on what's being asked. If it's something they simply procrastinate in doing, there may be consequences. If it's something you've asked to push them to grow, patience is a virtue and praise for the task accomplished is a must.

Master Fire



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 8:23:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: strikingamatch
How do you react when your slave hesitates to do as she is told?

I am talking of a case when she is told to do something that is very difficult for her, however, it is something which does not cross any of her hard limits.

If she eventually does as she is told, after repeated requests and after a few hours of cajoling ordering and discussion, does she get credit, or is she to be punished for taking her merry time?

Is immediate obedience a realistic and fair objective?

I don't do the cajoled ordering, but the discussion, yes.

Punishing someone for obeying is counterproductive.

If they didn't obey HOW you want them to obey, then you need to work on THAT goal, and take baby steps towards it.  Choosing something extremely difficult for someone to obey when you're working on immediate obedience is something you do at the END of the training for that goal- not the beginning. 

If the goal here was for them to obey THAT order, then they succeeded just fine. 

I don't get why people are so hung up on immediacy- why the rush?  This is training, this isn't going to end tomorrow, and if you make an inch of progress tonight, that's an inch closer than you were before. 

IMO punishment doesn't come into play much when you're training someone- punishment is for clueless and/or willful disobedience. 

Reward and learning is what comes into play for training.

So I would think the dom needs to decide exactly what the goal here is and communicate it- is the goal to obey immediate, or simply to obey that order?  If the goal is to obey immediately, then they have not done enough ore-training to get them to the place they need to be and needs more work.  If the goal is to obey that order, then it was done just fine.

If the goal is to do BOTH- again, that needs more time and prep work.



RavenMuse -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 8:25:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: strikingamatch

How do you react when your slave hesitates to do as she is told?

I am talking of a case when she is told to do something that is very difficult for her, however, it is something which does not cross any of her hard limits.

If she eventually does as she is told, after repeated requests and after a few hours of cajoling ordering and discussion, does she get credit, or is she to be punished for taking her merry time?

Is immediate obedience a realistic and fair objective?


Hesitation to Me is NOT "after a few hours of cajoling"... I do NOT cajole My girl, I have no need nor should I ever have need to do so. she has submitted and WILL obey.

"Can I do that in a moment when I've finished watching this?" Is fine, she may get told it is OK or she may get told, that no I want it done now. In the latter case off she goes.

Diffrent case if it is something she is having difficulty doing, something she needs help, support and reasurance to achieve.... in such a case I am a very patient Man and will spend as long as it takes if that is what I consider the best approach. Other times I will force the issue and help her over the problem that way. My girl trusts Me to keep her safe from 'harm' in either event.



Kondolinni -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 8:31:01 AM)

The OP is vague.

The answer is entirely dependant on the circumstances. What is the relationship of the players? What is the situation? What is the nature of the command? What are the motivations behind the actions/reactions of the players?

My lifestyle is 24/7 M/s, so I will address the Q from that point of view.

Depending on how demanding a master/mistress or how much of a sadist you are, you have to take into account two things:

One is training. The other is what you eventually want to groom your slave into being for you. At the very least, a Dominant's reaction must be tempered in observance to these aspects of his interactions with his submissive/slave.

If, for example, in the course of training your slave, a situation  where she/he hesitates or disobeys calls for a leanient response, you must give one, even if your personal feelings dictate a firmer response.

An obvious case where this would be so would be in ANY situation where a Dominant places a value on his/her submissive/slave trusting in their guidance. Call it "cajolling" if you will, but every culture that has even marginally successfully employed a slave labor force realized that the whip is not always the best way to handle a slave.

In my case, engendring trust is important, and what I ultimately seek is a woman enslaved to me through adoration/admiration. To achieve this, I sometimes allow a slave to hesitate without taking immediate umbrage.

I do not cajole, nor do I negotiate, but I will discuss, to a point. If, in fact, the conditions are as you described them, and I know the order falls within the accepted limits of my girl, I enforce obedience eventually. Sooner, rather than later, more often than not.



thetammyjo -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 9:21:06 AM)

If I give an order there only three acceptable responses in my house.

1) Obedience

2) A request for more time or for clarification -- this needs to be immediately done not part-way through a task.

3) Use of a safeword and a time-out to discuss things.

The word "no" is not allowed in my house and simply not obeying is a set-up for dismissal -- both are clear in my contract.

If I've made an order at a time when something else is going on (for example Fox is on the phone with his parents but I wasn't aware they were still talking or he's in the middle of web designing) he let's me know (#2 above) and I will allow myself to remind him of the task one more time.

That is it. He is not my husband and he does not have equal authority in our relationship and I am not his mother. Reminding him, bugging him, or anything else of that nature would remove me from the owner role and put me into other roles I have no interest of pursuing with him.



strikingamatch -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 11:16:35 AM)

I thank everyone for their responses. I wish to clarify what it is that puzzles me. I am in the beginning of an m/s relationship with a young lady. It is clearly understood by both sides that she is slave and I am master. We are both happy in our roles. I told my slave to do something, in this case, to talk about a traumatic experience she had. It took her at least two hours to finally talk about it.

My question is, during the time that she was hemming and hawing, was she aware of the m/s dynamic, or was she choosing to ignore it? In other words, when she is resisting orders, is she still aware that she is slave? Further, will the fact that I let her hem and haw, encourage her to be lackadaisical at other times too?



thetammyjo -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 11:23:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: strikingamatch

I thank everyone for their responses. I wish to clarify what it is that puzzles me. I am in the beginning of an m/s relationship with a young lady. It is clearly understood by both sides that she is slave and I am master. We are both happy in our roles. I told my slave to do something, in this case, to talk about a traumatic experience she had. It took her at least two hours to finally talk about it.

My question is, during the time that she was hemming and hawing, was she aware of the m/s dynamic, or was she choosing to ignore it? In other words, when she is resisting orders, is she still aware that she is slave? Further, will the fact that I let her hem and haw, encourage her to be lackadaisical at other times too?


See this is quite different from not getting mail when ordered or not washing the dishes or not giving a blow job on command.

As powerful and as much authority as you would like to have with her, the fact remains that you are not God and you are not her therapist. If she has survived traumas, she needs to talk about that with a trained professional when it is healthy for her to do so.

In my strong opinion forcing someone to discuss traumas when you are not trained in how to do this safely is asking for trouble. In fact, it's calling out to trouble with a big old flashing sign.

I know because Fox is a survivor. I encourage him to talk, I take him to therapy, but I do not force him to talk because I know I am not a therapist and I know that the best recovery comes when it is time for that person to start recovering. Only their minds truly know when this is.

It will be an intense and long term process. If will try you both and it will require that you give up any sense of total control you may want so you can both focus on what is healthy for her to deal with and the appropriate rate for any recovery. I think a hard lesson for any of us in the top position to learn is that we have limits to power, authority and control -- knowing this and working with this reality makes us better dominant in my opinion.



RavenMuse -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 11:34:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: strikingamatch

I thank everyone for their responses. I wish to clarify what it is that puzzles me. I am in the beginning of an m/s relationship with a young lady. It is clearly understood by both sides that she is slave and I am master. We are both happy in our roles. I told my slave to do something, in this case, to talk about a traumatic experience she had. It took her at least two hours to finally talk about it.

My question is, during the time that she was hemming and hawing, was she aware of the m/s dynamic, or was she choosing to ignore it? In other words, when she is resisting orders, is she still aware that she is slave? Further, will the fact that I let her hem and haw, encourage her to be lackadaisical at other times too?


That is the sort of thing where I do show patience, not quite sure what you mean by "hemming and hawing", but that could well be a case where with every will in the world it was too emotionaly difficult simply to blurt it out on command.

Taking time, giving reasurance, letting her find the words lead to a better responce.... and also make other such situations easier for her and enable her to comply more readily next time. Had she simply been refusing to try and give you the information... then hell yes there would have been a big problem... but wanting to comply, trying to comply but having difficulty doing so.... that needs more careful handling.

I don't cajole, I don't negotiate... but I live in the real world and some things can't be given immediatly, especialy not early on when the security, comfort and trust is only just being built properly.



toservez -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 11:37:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: strikingamatch

I thank everyone for their responses. I wish to clarify what it is that puzzles me. I am in the beginning of an m/s relationship with a young lady. It is clearly understood by both sides that she is slave and I am master. We are both happy in our roles. I told my slave to do something, in this case, to talk about a traumatic experience she had. It took her at least two hours to finally talk about it.

My question is, during the time that she was hemming and hawing, was she aware of the m/s dynamic, or was she choosing to ignore it? In other words, when she is resisting orders, is she still aware that she is slave? Further, will the fact that I let her hem and haw, encourage her to be lackadaisical at other times too?


A person’s brain is complex and the more something is mentally challenging the less the simple I am Master you are slave dynamic can be a simple straightforward order and response. When getting into traumatic experiences and other things of that nature a simple order is not fair to that person, could cause damage in the relationship if it is early on and in some ways makes light of what might be something seriously dark.

Something’s if not most things are black and white about the M/s dynamic and that is a big reason I love it, but there are things that go deep into grey. This is one of them.





LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 2:08:41 PM)

Please listen to Tammy Jo.  The fact that you feel you need to ask these questions here, that you feel that taking two hours to discuss traumatic events on demand somehow might suggest she's resisting your authority very much concerns me.

The fact that you would command someone to do so in the first place causes grave concern.  The rest just adds to it.



bandit25 -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 2:16:42 PM)

I agree with LA.  Unless you are a therapist and her therapist, it concerns me also that you would command her to talk about a tramatic experience.  You're in a new dynamic...why add something like that to the mix?



Raphael -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 2:23:28 PM)

Unhesitating obedience isn't something that just happens. It takes time and work to achieve.



MagiksSlave -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 2:24:20 PM)

Your kidding right... Punishing her for not beeing able to emediatly talk about something tramatic when orderd will cause more damage then you will be able to undo.. I know I still have trouble talking about trama that happend to me years ago and in therapy of all places... So Even in therapy it is hard to talk about things even at my own pase... beeing orderd to talk about them well Im pretty sure Id just totaly shut down.
 
 
Magik's slave



FukinTroll -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 2:26:23 PM)

You are getting good advice here. Trauma is a spooky thing. The strangest things can make you re-live that event out of the blue. A smell, a color, a bump in the road, or even how a stranger is just standing there, minding his or her own business. For you the trauma may have happened long ago and should be able to be resolved, but for the survivor it is happening right now. You see, hear, smell, and experience in a flash all that crap that caused that trauma. It is amazing how fast and how hard your brain can put you through that, especially when you spend half an hour trying to solve the "Tip" math at the restaurant, you wouldn’t think it could give you years of trauma in an instant. The brain is a weird thing, and if you are not trained to fuck with it, keep your psych winkie in your pants.



Mysti -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 2:37:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: strikingamatch

I thank everyone for their responses. I wish to clarify what it is that puzzles me. I am in the beginning of an m/s relationship with a young lady. It is clearly understood by both sides that she is slave and I am master. We are both happy in our roles. I told my slave to do something, in this case, to talk about a traumatic experience she had. It took her at least two hours to finally talk about it.

My question is, during the time that she was hemming and hawing, was she aware of the m/s dynamic, or was she choosing to ignore it? In other words, when she is resisting orders, is she still aware that she is slave? Further, will the fact that I let her hem and haw, encourage her to be lackadaisical at other times too?


Why would you demand she share something traumatic and then punish her for finally doing so? You dont go up to an abuse victim and say "Tell me about the time someone beat the fuck out of you.. oh you wont? Punishment for you then!" Come on! You have to be realistic in your demands.

My Daddy knows I have scars from the past but also knows that there's some places Im not ready to go in our discussions. He's a Master but He's also human, with a healthy dose of human compassion, of which in my opinion you havent shown in this case.

I hope for her sake you've not driven her back inside herself, because if that's the case, anytime you demand her to tell you something shes going to shrink in fear.



jadia -> RE: Slavery and Obedience (2/8/2007 2:38:23 PM)

May I ask, please...when you commanded her to talk about her traumatic event, were you prepared emotionally and spiritually to deal with whatever happened to come of it?  What was your intent in having her talk about it with you?  What did you hope to gain or benefit from it?  How did you ensure her emotional safety? 
People spend years and years with qualified therapists to deal with traumatic events.  Anyone who has been even peripherally involved in a true theraputic relationship realizes that level of trust does not occur spontaneously simply because one says "I am the therapist" and "you are the patient."  Were you so focused on your objective "slave will talk about this event" that you missed the signs of distress?  You set a slave up for failure when you command a task they are not ready or able to fulfill, putting them in a no win situation.  In either case, they will fail you...either by not talking about the event, or by talking about it and placing their trust  and emotional safety in jeopardy, thereby inhibiting their service to you.

Perhaps the focus could shift from "obedience" to an understanding of what trauma does to an individual and their relationships to the world at large, and prepare yourself emotionally and spiritually to deal with it when the proper moment arises.

best regards,
jadia



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