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RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 1:05:20 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		One of the main motivating  forces for the Nazis, and probably most Germans, was to redress the impositions of the treaty that ended WW! and to regenerate pride in Germany and its nationalistic and  for the Nazi's in particular expansionist ambitions. The social chaos present at the back end of the Weimar Republic played  a major part in support shifting to the extreme right.

The Nazis WERE elected and from memory the split was about 30 30 30 with the other parties. I cannot recall why it was not possible for alternative candidates to become Chancellor, but it wasn't and Hitler got the job.

If anyone does not appreciate the level of support accorded the Nazis after they obtained power then have a look at film showing German troops entering Austria.
The Nazis did regenerate and stabilise Germany but went on to light the furnaces of hate and murder  that we all know about.

Debate about the +'s and -'s of the Nazi regime should in my opinion be free and open.
For a start it should  point a message to multiculturalists as to what can happen if economies collapse and unemployment agitation and street violence follows.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 6:08:08 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Seeks, you're right about that. "Multi-culturalism" has rarely been a "good" thing throughout history.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 8:22:47 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		seeksfemslave:
Which cultures are we talking about in Germany at the time of Hitler?
thompson

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 8:27:50 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Seeks, you're right about that. "Multi-culturalism" has rarely been a "good" thing throughout history.


popeye1250:
Perhaps you might enlighten us as to which multi cultural experiment in the course of history have not been a good thing.
What exactly do you mean when you say multi cultural?
thompson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 9:50:08 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Thompsonx asks seeksfemslave:
Which cultures are we talking about in Germany at the time of Hitler?
thompson
I answer ...I dont understand the question lol

To answer the question directed at popeye....
Many multicultural societies, defining multicultural as racially , tribally or religiously mixed, have experienced serious levels of violence
eg Rwanda, Indonesia, Yugoslavia, why even the USA ask the Apaches lol, Uganda, Nigeria ,IRAQ right now ,South Africa, Rhodesia, Germany ,anti Jewish pogroms in the old Soviet Union and last for now the UK, musnt forget India, Pakistan

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 10:22:19 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		A hypothetical situation for the Americans - the ones who believe in rule of law rather than rule of the bazooka.

Say you find yourselves in a situation like Britain where you have Muslim extremists attempting to whip up the Muslim community (into terrorist activity).

Say there was evidence suggesting these extremists were attracting support.

Would you want these extremists to remain in your country and risk a terrorist attack as a result of their preaching, or would you want them deported?



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 10:27:36 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Thompsonx asks seeksfemslave:
Which cultures are we talking about in Germany at the time of Hitler?
thompson
I answer ...I dont understand the question lol

To answer the question directed at popeye....
Many multicultural societies, defining multicultural as racially , tribally or religiously mixed, have experienced serious levels of violence
eg Rwanda, Indonesia, Yugoslavia, why even the USA ask the Apaches lol, Uganda, Nigeria ,IRAQ right now ,South Africa, Rhodesia, Germany ,anti Jewish pogroms in the old Soviet Union and last for now the UK, musnt forget India, Pakistan


seeksfemslave:
I was refering to the last line of your post questioning multiculturalism.
If I remember my history correctly wasn't there a time in England when it was thought that catholics and protestants could not coexist and now the two religions seem to get along without killing one another on a regular bassis.
The genocide perpatrated on the native americans by the U.S, government was hardly an experiment in multiculturalism.
My understanding is that Iraq is currently overwhelmingly muslim.  To make the distinction of shia vs. suni is no different than saying that presbyterians and methodist living side by side is multiculturism.  As to South Africa are you refering to now or under apartied...there seems to be quite a bit less murder and violence now than there was under apartied. 
I do not know how it would be characterized with a cricket metaphore but in baseball we would call that batting 0 for 10.
Wanna try again?

thompson

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 10:35:28 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Northern gent ( I realise you are afraid to respond to me because I asked you a question, but others on the board will see this).  Are they calling for violence?  If so I would want them jailed, not deported.  But the issue of holocoust denying is not calling for violence.  This thread is about a law saying that you can not say hitler was not such a bad guy, or that the numbers are fake.  Not actually being Hitler.  Not a single person on this thread has held that there is no limit whatsoever on speech. Substitute Marxist for Muslim in your own question and answer it.

Also NG you say you welcome the new ideas of the imigrants with open arms and no fear, why would you want them punished?  Because as I pointed out near the begining of this thread, it is based on your personal preference, which is a disastorous base for public policy, that is inherantly totalitarian.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 10:48:38 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Northern gent ( I realise you are afraid to respond to me because I asked you a question, but others on the board will see this).  Are they calling for violence?  If so I would want them jailed, not deported.  But the issue of holocoust denying is not calling for violence.  This thread is about a law saying that you can not say hitler was not such a bad guy, or that the numbers are fake. 



You must have missed half of the thread because there is a whole debate going on around should Hitler have been stopped in his tracks pre 1933. You'll understand that Hitler called for extreme violence pre 1933.

So, if you want Muslim extremists jailed for calling for violence then, by extension, you're agreeing with my Hitler argument. The reason being, you couldn't possibly argue that Hitler should not have been jailed because he actually called for and organised violence against those who didn't support the Nazis. The muslim extremists could not possibly be calling for more extreme violence than Hitler. Not only that, he called for genocide. Based on your above statement, we're both saying there is a limit to what people should be allowed to say.

The part I've highlighted in bold, I didn't realise you head an organisation where you speak for others on the board. If I want their opinion should I come to you, seeing as you speak for them? Quite the totalitarian aren't you.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 11:12:36 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A hypothetical situation for the Americans - the ones who believe in rule of law rather than rule of the bazooka.

Say you find yourselves in a situation like Britain where you have Muslim extremists attempting to whip up the Muslim community (into terrorist activity).

Say there was evidence suggesting these extremists were attracting support.

Would you want these extremists to remain in your country and risk a terrorist attack as a result of their preaching, or would you want them deported?




NorthernGent:
Here in the U.S. we have a law called criminal syndicalism and it predates the patrion act by more than fifty years.  It states pretty clearly that one may not advocate the violent overthrow of the government.  In your hypothetical example if the person calling for the violent overthrow of the government is a native born citizen they may be jailed for a considerable time.  In the case of an immigrant they also may be jailed but at the end of their imprisonment they would be automatically deported back to their country or origin.  If their country of origin did not want them then they would be deported to any country that would accept them.
thompson

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 11:20:22 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A hypothetical situation for the Americans - the ones who believe in rule of law rather than rule of the bazooka.

Say you find yourselves in a situation like Britain where you have Muslim extremists attempting to whip up the Muslim community (into terrorist activity).

Say there was evidence suggesting these extremists were attracting support.

Would you want these extremists to remain in your country and risk a terrorist attack as a result of their preaching, or would you want them deported?




NorthernGent:
Here in the U.S. we have a law called criminal syndicalism and it predates the patrion act by more than fifty years.  It states pretty clearly that one may not advocate the violent overthrow of the government.  In your hypothetical example if the person calling for the violent overthrow of the government is a native born citizen they may be jailed for a considerable time.  In the case of an immigrant they also may be jailed but at the end of their imprisonment they would be automatically deported back to their country or origin.  If their country of origin did not want them then they would be deported to any country that would accept them.
thompson


thompson, are you saying restriction on freedom of speech is enshrined in US law?

The point about an immigrant being jailed - this certainly is restriction on free speech. I appreciate you're into the realms of guessing when asked the following, but what sort of percentage do you think would support deportation of immigrants, and jailing of nationals, as a result of advocating terrorist attacks within the US?

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/20/2007 11:23:52 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 2:17:42 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Since NG keeps banging on about the rule of law perhaps he could tell us what the Nazi regime did that violated their own legal statutes. My understanding is that to abridge the rights of the opposition,  the Fuhrer simply changed the Law. Not that difficult really.

When working class people suffered economic deprivataion in the 19th century, violence ensued
I believe there was quite a bit of violence surrounding the Corn Laws in the UK. Made food expensive for the masses.

Was it wrong ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/20/2007 2:20:03 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 2:35:46 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Thompsonx asks seeksfemslave:
Which cultures are we talking about in Germany at the time of Hitler?
thompson
I answer ...I dont understand the question lol

To answer the question directed at popeye....
Many multicultural societies, defining multicultural as racially , tribally or religiously mixed, have experienced serious levels of violence
eg Rwanda, Indonesia, Yugoslavia, why even the USA ask the Apaches lol, Uganda, Nigeria ,IRAQ right now ,South Africa, Rhodesia, Germany ,anti Jewish pogroms in the old Soviet Union and last for now the UK, musnt forget India, Pakistan


seeksfemslave:
I was refering to the last line of your post questioning multiculturalism.
If I remember my history correctly wasn't there a time in England when it was thought that catholics and protestants could not coexist and now the two religions seem to get along without killing one another on a regular bassis.
The genocide perpatrated on the native americans by the U.S, government was hardly an experiment in multiculturalism.
My understanding is that Iraq is currently overwhelmingly muslim.  To make the distinction of shia vs. suni is no different than saying that presbyterians and methodist living side by side is multiculturism.  As to South Africa are you refering to now or under apartied...there seems to be quite a bit less murder and violence now than there was under apartied. 
I do not know how it would be characterized with a cricket metaphore but in baseball we would call that batting 0 for 10.
Wanna try again?

thompson


Thompson
In the UK we have just experienced  30 odd years of mayhem and murder Protestant/Catholic financed largely from the jolly old USA. When that finance was stopped after 9/11, to a large degree the violence diminished.

Genocide of native Americans came about as a consequence of the policy of "manifest destiny" which led to the expansion Westwards across the USA. This policy specifically rejected multi culturalism.

Sunni Shia murderous antagonisms  are based on CULTURAL divisions.

Violence in South Africa. Both under Apartheid and now. Racial differences first, disillusion of the black community now.

I have stepped up to the pitching mound Mr T and thrown a beaner he he he he he he he. Did it hurt lol

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/20/2007 2:38:08 PM >

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 2:44:42 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Since NG keeps banging on about the rule of law perhaps he could tell us what the Nazi regime did that violated their own legal statutes. My understanding is that to abridge the rights of the opposition,  the Fuhrer simply changed the Law. Not that difficult really.



LOL Depends who law it is seeks. Which is why I keep asking who will be the thought police!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 2:54:50 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A hypothetical situation for the Americans - the ones who believe in rule of law rather than rule of the bazooka.

Say you find yourselves in a situation like Britain where you have Muslim extremists attempting to whip up the Muslim community (into terrorist activity).

Say there was evidence suggesting these extremists were attracting support.

Would you want these extremists to remain in your country and risk a terrorist attack as a result of their preaching, or would you want them deported?




NG, of course I'd want those fuckers deported!
IMHO we shouldn't be letting in anymore muslims anyway.
We're to the point in this country now that we just don't need anymore immigration.
There's no "shortage" of farmworkers, construction workers, store workers, fill in the blank anymore.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 2/20/2007 2:56:36 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 5:00:14 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		NG where did I speak for anyone?  You seem to have a problem reading.  I stated that others would see my post, which is true. 

In retrospect yes, we should have attacked Hitler when he first stepped over his border, instead of waiting so long.  The same reason that many of us supported taking out Saddam(and wish it had been done in 98)----destablising the region, refusing to obey treaties( cease fire) he agreed to, supporting terrorists in the region, attacking and attempting to annex several of his neighbors, Mass Murder of dissidents, and Genocide of minority populations.  You do not seem to have any problem with Baath Socialists ( who in fact got money and support from Hitler)

Just like Marxists, radical Islam claims it will protect peple from Big Bussiness, as well as human corruption.  You certainly do not want every Marxist who calls for revolution to be jailed/deported do you?  You manage to turn the murder of millions of people(more than the Nazis) into---they just wanted to protect people from big bussiness.  But they did not even accomplish that. 

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 11:22:25 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		You're clouding a few different issues that are being discussed here:

1) You did attempt to speak for other people and what you believe they can see. If unsure, have another look at your post.

2) The Hitler issue being discussed here is nothing to do with military tactics. We are talking about the idea that he should have been shut down (wthin Germany) in the 1920s. You say you would jail those advocating a terrorist attack on US soil. Thus, you are restricting their freedom of speech in exactly the same way I'm arguing that Hitler's freedom of speech should have been restricted.

3) Your "you do not seem to have a problem" lines are boring. Again, you attempt to speak for someone.

4) Your last paragraph makes absolutely no sense apart from you jumping to conclusions (again) on what I think about the Soviet Union.

5) In conclusion, your debating style is shocking.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/20/2007 11:23:29 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 11:26:31 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, of course I'd want those fuckers deported!
IMHO we shouldn't be letting in anymore muslims anyway.
We're to the point in this country now that we just don't need anymore immigration.
There's no "shortage" of farmworkers, construction workers, store workers, fill in the blank anymore.



Popeye, if a US national advocates terrorist attacks on US soil, and he begins to gain support from radical elements, would you take your chances and see what happens, or would you want him jailed?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 11:42:00 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Thompsonx asks seeksfemslave:
Which cultures are we talking about in Germany at the time of Hitler?
thompson
I answer ...I dont understand the question lol

To answer the question directed at popeye....
Many multicultural societies, defining multicultural as racially , tribally or religiously mixed, have experienced serious levels of violence
eg Rwanda, Indonesia, Yugoslavia, why even the USA ask the Apaches lol, Uganda, Nigeria ,IRAQ right now ,South Africa, Rhodesia, Germany ,anti Jewish pogroms in the old Soviet Union and last for now the UK, musnt forget India, Pakistan


seeksfemslave:
I was refering to the last line of your post questioning multiculturalism.
If I remember my history correctly wasn't there a time in England when it was thought that catholics and protestants could not coexist and now the two religions seem to get along without killing one another on a regular bassis.
The genocide perpatrated on the native americans by the U.S, government was hardly an experiment in multiculturalism.
My understanding is that Iraq is currently overwhelmingly muslim.  To make the distinction of shia vs. suni is no different than saying that presbyterians and methodist living side by side is multiculturism.  As to South Africa are you refering to now or under apartied...there seems to be quite a bit less murder and violence now than there was under apartied. 
I do not know how it would be characterized with a cricket metaphore but in baseball we would call that batting 0 for 10.
Wanna try again?

thompson


Thompson
In the UK we have just experienced  30 odd years of mayhem and murder Protestant/Catholic financed largely from the jolly old USA. When that finance was stopped after 9/11, to a large degree the violence diminished.
The perception here of the last 30 od years of violence in your country is that some of the Irish felt that you folks were taking sides against them in their internal conflict ...I do not remember hearing of any violence of catholics and protestants native to England.


Genocide of native Americans came about as a consequence of the policy of "manifest destiny" which led to the expansion Westwards across the USA. This policy specifically rejected multi culturalism.

Which was my point.


Sunni Shia murderous antagonisms  are based on CULTURAL divisions.

You are going to have to explain this to me since my perception is that they are both arab...both muslim...both Iraquie...so I fail to see any cultural division.


Violence in South Africa. Both under Apartheid and now. Racial differences first, disillusion of the black community now.

From what I have read there is less violence now by at least several orders of magnitude.


I have stepped up to the pitching mound Mr T and thrown a beaner he he he he he he he. Did it hurt lol
I fear your arm is a bit weak as the ball did not even reach the plate.  It would appear that you are still 0 for 10
thompson



(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/20/2007 11:51:19 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		popeye1250:
If there is no shortage of farm workers construction workers etc then how do illegal aliens get jobs?
Who are you to decide that america does not need any immigrants?  Should we just take the bitch in New York harbor down and melt her down for scrap?
thompson

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 200
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