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RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 12:11:24 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		NorthernGent:
I know you to be literate so I can only conclude that your question about the enshrinement of restrictions on free speach in the U.S. was one of rhetorical amazement.
There are, however, subtle ways around this.  More than a few of the founding fathers advocated the overthrow of existing govenments and put these pronouncements into writting.  So one may quote Jefferson, Madison and others in this context and not be afoul of the laws prohibiting the advocating of the violent overthrow of the government.
As to what percentage of the general population who would support imprisonment  and deportation...one need look no farther than these boards to get a glimpse of the jingoistic feeling ....consider the vituperative verbage that the name Jane Fonda brings to the post of flag waving chauvinist.  All she did was go to a country that we attacked without provocation and exercise her constitutionally guaranteed right to free speach.  She did not advocate the overthrow of the government she simply emplored them to stop murdering people.  Still thirty five years later we hear the same sad rhetoric about traitor etc. from people who can read and choose not to.
thompson

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 1:19:01 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Thompson:
On cultural difference/definition we will have to agree to disagree

Point of fact: the violence in Northern Ireland did spill over into England. Some examples....
A major shopping centre in Manchester was destroyed.
Buildings in the financial district of London were wrecked.
A telephone exchange in the city where I live was bombed.
At a military parade in London a bomb was exploded killing many horses.

With regard to Jane Fonda/Viet Nam  I totally agree with you.
Tho' I have seen J Fonda on a political discussion programme and she gave me the impression that she has spent too much time surrounded by Yes Men and Women. ie she spoke and seemed convinced that she had given forth incontravertable truths.

Funnily enough her Brit equivalent Vanessa Redgrave behaves in a very similar way.
Vaness R has allowed her natural ageing process to be apparent whereas Jane F has that "plasiticky" appearance that comes from trying to hide the changes brought on by time. IMO Vannessa R, as a consequence ,is the more attractive woman.  A bit of a loopy Liberal tho' !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/21/2007 2:05:28 AM >

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RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 1:41:41 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Point of fact: the violence in Northern Ireland did spill over into England. Some examples....
A major shopping centre in Manchester was destroyed.
Buildings in the financial district of London were wrecked.
A telephone exchange in the city where I live was bombed.
At a military parade in London a bomb was exploded killing many horses.



I was holding my baby daughter in our apartment when the windows were blown out by the Canary Wharfe bomb. Luckily we had sort of designer venetian blinds up to (we had a cool contemporary interior) which caught most of the flying glass, many of our neighbours didn't and ended up in hospital for the night with glass wounds.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 1:58:17 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I was holding my baby daughter in our apartment when the windows were blown out by the Canary Wharfe bomb. Luckily we had sort of designer venetian blinds up to (we had a cool contemporary interior) which caught most of the flying glass, many of our neighbours didn't and ended up in hospital for the night with glass wounds.


Close shave there then MC.
Incidently I completely forgot to mention the bombing of the Bull Ring Rotunda, or more accurately a pub  underneath the building. This, from memory, was the first English mainland bombing by the IRA.
Several people served long periods in prison for this incident and then were  freed with a pardon.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 3:21:50 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Northern Gent

1..Nope Ng you should re read  my statement.  Anyone reading this thread would see my post.  I didn't actually claim they would read it.  Some probably wouldn't.  Though I am sure most do.  I seem to get a lot of responses to my posts, so they obviously can be seen. 

2.   Hitler should have been arrested not for his speech but for activley organizing and directing gangs of violent thugs to break the law.  He broke all kinds of laws.  Same goes for any political dissident, be he a Marxist, Muslim, or NAZI.  Actions should be punished, not ideas.  You just can't grasp that can you?

3. I have no idea what you are refering to...do you mean the general idea of pointing out inconsistancies in your posts?  I think that is 100% fair debating.  Though I realise it makes you run for the public ignore.  Which made me laugh.

4.  NG it is shocking that you try to convert my comment on Marxism to the USSR.  That is pathetic debating.  Trying to pull the old switch terms ploy.  I expect better from you.  I never in anyway attempted to state your views on the USSR.   I never rmentioned the USSR in this thread.   (though I think I remeber you saying they had the right to have buffer states on another thread, but I could be wrong on that.)  I did make a comment on what you think of Marxism based on what you wrote in post 109 " Marxism was all about guaranteeing the rights of your average man/woman on the street (from big business vultures). Is this such a bad thing? "    Thats what you said about Marxism, in this thread.  I do consider it just fine debating to recall a point made by the other person.  Why would you find that to be shocking?  And the death toll from Marxism extends far beyond the USSR.  Or do you not know that?

5.  You seem to be confusing shock for losing a debate.  Switching terms to try to make a point...pathetic




(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 4:39:07 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		I was going to reply that the treatment of the extremists in
this example would depend on whether they were citizens,
legal aliens or illegal aliens.  Then I saw Thompson's post about
criminal syndicalism, and began looking for information on this subject,
so here is the court rulings in a scenario very much
like the one described.  Brandenburg vrs Ohio was about the
KKK, rather than Muslim terrorists. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clear_and_present_danger



quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

A hypothetical situation for the Americans - the ones who believe in rule of law rather than rule of the bazooka.

Say you find yourselves in a situation like Britain where you have Muslim extremists attempting to whip up the Muslim community (into terrorist activity).

Say there was evidence suggesting these extremists were attracting support.

Would you want these extremists to remain in your country and risk a terrorist attack as a result of their preaching, or would you want them deported?




NorthernGent:
Here in the U.S. we have a law called criminal syndicalism and it predates the patrion act by more than fifty years.  It states pretty clearly that one may not advocate the violent overthrow of the government.  In your hypothetical example if the person calling for the violent overthrow of the government is a native born citizen they may be jailed for a considerable time.  In the case of an immigrant they also may be jailed but at the end of their imprisonment they would be automatically deported back to their country or origin.  If their country of origin did not want them then they would be deported to any country that would accept them.
thompson


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 4:41:09 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		What a horrible experience MC.  I am so glad that you and your
daughter were untouched.  How many people were killed or injured
in that attack?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I was holding my baby daughter in our apartment when the windows were blown out by the Canary Wharfe bomb. Luckily we had sort of designer venetian blinds up to (we had a cool contemporary interior) which caught most of the flying glass, many of our neighbours didn't and ended up in hospital for the night with glass wounds.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 7:35:56 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Thompson:
On cultural difference/definition we will have to agree to disagree

Point of fact: the violence in Northern Ireland did spill over into England. Some examples....
A major shopping centre in Manchester was destroyed.
Buildings in the financial district of London were wrecked.
A telephone exchange in the city where I live was bombed.
At a military parade in London a bomb was exploded killing many horses.

With regard to Jane Fonda/Viet Nam  I totally agree with you.
Tho' I have seen J Fonda on a political discussion programme and she gave me the impression that she has spent too much time surrounded by Yes Men and Women. ie she spoke and seemed convinced that she had given forth incontravertable truths.

Funnily enough her Brit equivalent Vanessa Redgrave behaves in a very similar way.
Vaness R has allowed her natural ageing process to be apparent whereas Jane F has that "plasiticky" appearance that comes from trying to hide the changes brought on by time. IMO Vannessa R, as a consequence ,is the more attractive woman.  A bit of a loopy Liberal tho' !


seeksfemslave:
I do not care for Ms. Fonda very much because she is dumber than a stone...I base that opinion on both her writings and her spoken words.  I do applaud her for standing up for what she felt to be right.
As for ageing beauties my vote go to Sophia Loren.
thompson

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 7:49:16 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, of course I'd want those fuckers deported!
IMHO we shouldn't be letting in anymore muslims anyway.
We're to the point in this country now that we just don't need anymore immigration.
There's no "shortage" of farmworkers, construction workers, store workers, fill in the blank anymore.



Popeye, if a US national advocates terrorist attacks on US soil, and he begins to gain support from radical elements, would you take your chances and see what happens, or would you want him jailed?


NG, of course I'd want them jailed!
I seem to remember something back in the 1970's about IRA supporters being arrested for that in Boston or NYC.
I believe advocating violence or threatening is a crime in this country.
It must also be in England I would imagine.
Maybe the "politically correct" idiots don't think it is if muslims do it.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 12:12:23 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Popeye, if a US national advocates terrorist attacks on US soil, and he begins to gain support from radical elements, would you take your chances and see what happens, or would you want him jailed?

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, of course I'd want them jailed!
I seem to remember something back in the 1970's about IRA supporters being arrested for that in Boston or NYC.
I believe advocating violence or threatening is a crime in this country.
It must also be in England I would imagine.
Maybe the "politically correct" idiots don't think it is if muslims do it.



In that case, you're agreeing there should be a restriction on freedom of speech. You want someone jailed for promoting violence. This is my exact argument with Hitler. The man was clearly advocating extreme violence against political opponents as well as genocide.

Once people begin to analyse the consequences of people being able to say whatever they want, they soon move away from the notion that freedom of speech should have no restrictions.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/21/2007 12:15:24 PM >

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 12:35:45 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

NorthernGent:
I know you to be literate so I can only conclude that your question about the enshrinement of restrictions on free speach in the U.S. was one of rhetorical amazement.

quote:



thompson, my knowledge of US law is minimal. The sole reason being geography - we tend to focus on Europe because of its proximity and thus know more about Europe, than the US. In truth, I'm not amazed. We don't quite have that here - there is no such patriot act or similar, but we certainly do have restrictions on speech e.g. a recently deported Muslim extremist bares testimony.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

She did not advocate the overthrow of the government she simply emplored them to stop murdering people.  Still thirty five years later we hear the same sad rhetoric about traitor etc. from people who can read and choose not to.
thompson



A point well made.  This example of Jane Fonda - it seems some want only their politics to be heard. I suppose this is the measure of conservatism....."freedom! freedom! freedom!........providing you're with us".

In my book, providing there are no violent consequences people should be entitled to their views. It would be very helpful if these views were respectful, but we know this isn't an option e.g. Jane Fonda being denounced as a traitor because of her politics and belief in the human rights of non-Americans. Once it oversteps the mark into advocating extreme violence however, such as Hitler, it is a different matter - right or left politics is not the issue, the issue is the speaker's intent.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 2/21/2007 12:37:07 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 12:38:53 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		NG, not really.
You can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater either.

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Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 12:41:04 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Popeye, you've just said you want to see US nationals, advocating terrorism on US soil, jailed. This is restricting their freedom of speech. I'm struggling to see how you can then say "not really".

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 12:57:37 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Popeye, you've just said you want to see US nationals, advocating terrorism on US soil, jailed. This is restricting their freedom of speech. I'm struggling to see how you can then say "not really".


OK, could someone explain that concept to N.G.?

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Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 1:07:58 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		It's your line, Popeye.......let's have it.....

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 1:18:34 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It's your line, Popeye.......let's have it.....


N.G., we have free speech but you can't go around threatening people.
What if I went up to a copper and told him I was going to rob a bank?
What do you think would happen to me?
You can say whatever you want but when you start threatening violence or people that is no longer free speech.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 1:33:43 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Popeye, you've just reiterated what I've said. There are limits to free speech. As per your example, people can't say whatever they want to whomever they want. Hitler is a case in point - as per my initial posts.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 8:23:41 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		I'm really confused by what point you are trying to get across here.

I understand you are saying their should be restrictions on freedom of speech and there are already that have been there, for a very long time already. Basicly direct violence. I doubt you are arguing that laws that exist already should exist. That is sorta pointless, because almost everyone agrees and they are already laws. So, are you wanting expansion of these restrictions, because you've yet to come out and say what you prefer in anything more than general terms than something like "civilized people balance freedom and safety". You just keep asking if hitler should have had his freedom of speech restricted. Well, on what terms. Before or after he tried to overthrow the government. Because at that point they don't even need to deal with freedom of speech, because he could have been put away forever over that.  So, I'm assuming you are going back even further...

But it doesn't even really matter, if germany had chosen to take proper action against Hitler for the "tangible physical" crimes he commited, he wouldn't have been in power either. It's not freedom of speech.

If anything it would be attributed to enforcement failure of other laws on the books, not a need for more.

I mean they did let him out of jail after he tried to overthrow the government. LOL. Maybe they should have executed him for that crime rather than restricting his speech and letting walk the streets. Don't know, that makes more sense to me, anyway.

I prefer crime to be delegated whenever possible into the sphere of judging actions which there were plenty of before he took complete control. If they had dealt with the "action" based crimes properly, why even screw with speech. Seriously, people say shit all the time. 99.99999% of the time it leads to absolutely nothing. Examples "I'll kill you bitch". "We should kill the immigrants at the border, then they'd think twice". "We should nuke the whole middle east and be done with it". "Someone comes on my property I'll blow their fucking head off".    Etc...

So, I guess my ultimate point here is. Why focus on speech, when there are much less subjective and more tanglible crimes one could deal with.

I think a better question might be why did the Germans (A fair percentage anyway), continue to support him after he was caught overthrowing the government. And why was this allowed by those in the present government(let him out of jail in 8 months). I couldn't imagine a person caught actively acting against the government not being hanged unless it was supported by members of the government.



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Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 11:19:15 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I'm really confused by what point you are trying to get across here.

I understand you are saying their should be restrictions on freedom of speech and there are already that have been there, for a very long time already.



If you look back at the first page it will become clear.

1) A couple of posters claimed there should be no restriction on speech.

2) I said, in certain extreme cases there should be a restriction on what people are allowed to say.

3) Some posters challenged this.

4) Here we are discussing practical examples of restriction of speech all over the world e.g. terrorists calling for terrorist attacks on US soil.





_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/21/2007 11:30:24 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Thompsonx asks seeksfemslave:
Which cultures are we talking about in Germany at the time of Hitler?
thompson
I answer ...I dont understand the question lol

To answer the question directed at popeye....
Many multicultural societies, defining multicultural as racially , tribally or religiously mixed, have experienced serious levels of violence
eg Rwanda, Indonesia, Yugoslavia, why even the USA ask the Apaches lol, Uganda, Nigeria ,IRAQ right now ,South Africa, Rhodesia, Germany ,anti Jewish pogroms in the old Soviet Union and last for now the UK, musnt forget India, Pakistan


Seeks, and don't forget Bosnia and Kosovo.
Now there's "Multi-Culturalism" at work for you!

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 220
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