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RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 2:05:23 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You know what, I call Mormons "Morons"... so please come send the Utah officials to come pick me up for making fun of their religion... I am not on the list of those who incite others and offend them with my thoughts



This hyperbole and complete misconstruing of another person's point of view is a touch on the odd side.

You're completely missing me here. I'm not suggesting offending someone is a crime, nor that a person should be afraid to state their opinions, nor that someone "can't poke fun of someone else". My posts clearly do not suggest this. If you read post 66, and consider the question put to you, I'm guessing you'll understand where I'm coming from. Unless you can grasp what I'm saying from previous posts, time to knock our chat on the head.


I did not mean to insinuate that you believe that, those parts of my post were to address the slippery slope that we embark upon when we say that it is ok to insult and inflame some people but not other people. It is a double standard to state that I can insult Utah, say they are a bunch of devil worshipping occultists and polygamists that sleep with teenage girls, and that Utah state government is controlled b Mormons... but I cannot make this assertion about Jews or I am being "hateful". BTW, I have Mormon family that I love dearly and they live in Utah. I am just making a point.

Edited to say, actually both things are hateful, but I do believe they are protected speech. Like I said earlier, most people have some group of people they are intolerant of and they say hateful things about.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 2/17/2007 2:12:52 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 2:06:48 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

I base my opinion that the man is a complete idiot and SHOULD go to jail on the memory of the millions of people killed during world war two, those that died from the Holocaust and of the war itself.


This is exactly the sort of statement that makes me edgy about limiting free speech. It seems to come dangerously close to saying, "He should be in jail because I don't like what he said." It seems to me that, at a minimum, one should be able to demonstrate that speech he or she wishes to prohibit poses fairly imminent harm to other living people.



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 2/17/2007 2:17:17 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 2:07:10 PM   
popeye1250


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Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NG, we here in America have an additional freedom that would have prevented the nazis from comming into power in Germany had they had it.
It's called the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bare arms.
If the German people had killed a few hundred or a few thousand of those nazis perhaps they would have rethought their whole gameplan.


we do.  of course a lot of good it does when they take them away



RealOne, who's "they?"
If someone comes to your house and tries to take your guns away you shoot them right in the head!
"Go Head! Take em away NOW, ASSHOLE!"

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 2:16:22 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Even in the U.S., freedom of speech is far more nuanced that many of us realize. I was not aware of Chaplinsky, for instance, and appreciate your bringing it to our attention.



In extreme cases, freedom of speech can lead to murder and genocide. Once you start digging beneath the banner of "freedom of speech" and analysing the consequences and its role as a catalyst in a chain of events, it then becomes a more complex issue.


It's definitely more complex than I thought when I first came to the thread, and I thank you, NG, for stretching my thinking on the subject.

Of course, I still maintain what I consider a healthy distrust of any governmental effort to limit speech. That comes in no small part from remembering how the Bush Administration has used 9/11 as a tool for discouraging criticism. My blood has yet to thaw entirely from when Ari Fleischer, then the presidental press secretary, warned reporters after 9/11 that we all need to be careful about what we say!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 2:17:16 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You know what, I call Mormons "Morons"... so please come send the Utah officials to come pick me up for making fun of their religion... I am not on the list of those who incite others and offend them with my thoughts



This hyperbole and complete misconstruing of another person's point of view is a touch on the odd side.

You're completely missing me here. I'm not suggesting offending someone is a crime, nor that a person should be afraid to state their opinions, nor that someone "can't poke fun of someone else". My posts clearly do not suggest this. If you read post 66, and consider the question put to you, I'm guessing you'll understand where I'm coming from. Unless you can grasp what I'm saying from previous posts, time to knock our chat on the head.


I did not mean to insinuate that you believe that, those parts of my post were to address the slippery slope that we embark upon when we say that it is ok to insult and inflame some people but not other people. It is a double standard to state that I can insult Utah, say they are a bunch of devil worshipping occultists and polygamists that sleep with teenage girls, and that Utah state government is controlled b Mormons... but I cannot make this assertion about Jews or I am being "hateful". BTW, I have Mormon family that I love dearly and they live in Utah. I am just making a point.


Fair enough, Julia.

You can choose to think about this.

Genocide does not begin with genocide. It is the result of a chain of events. All genocide points back to one common denominator - extremists given a platform to push their views and gain support. If you nip these extremists in the bud, then there is a fair chance it will alter the chain of events and prevent genocide.

Life is about tough choices. They have to be made and sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 2:36:28 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Genocide does not begin with genocide. It is the result of a chain of events. All genocide points back to one common denominator - extremists given a platform to push their views and gain support. If you nip these extremists in the bud, then there is a fair chance it will alter the chain of events and prevent genocide.



Actually that is not what happens in every case of genocide. It is not what happened in Rwanda for example. That happened because racial divisions that were put into play by European powers long ago, they flashed to the surface and then it happened rather suddenly.


It is hard to prove a negative NG. In other words, I cannot disprove that stopping people from speaking their minds does not stop genocide, because neither one of us can show definitively that it was prevented when we do not know if it would have happened... but I can state this... the first step of genocide usually  happens when one group begins to take the rights of another group of people. Therefore it is the taking of civil rights that is the precursor to genocide in my mind. I made the point that most people have some irrational opinion based on stereotypes, so who is going to decide that one prejudice is ok, and another type of individual needs imprisonment? Are we going to have thought police. I think we should have the right to voice stupidity, and that other people have the right to discredit that stupidity. I also think that as long as no one moves to shut another up, well then no genocide can occur where there are rights for everyone.

That is why I am so defensive on the Bill of Rights, because in my mind that I can speak out freely against Gitmo and war, and treating people like second class citizens based on ethnicity and race is a direct result of the fact we have a Bill of Rights. It is hard to hide what you are doing in a free society.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 2:37:16 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

It's definitely more complex than I thought when I first came to the thread, and I thank you, NG, for stretching my thinking on the subject.



Not a problem Dc. I don't pretend to have the solution.........as far as I'm aware no one has the solution to achieve a balanced society - I'm yet to read of one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Of course, I still maintain what I consider a healthy distrust of any governmental effort to limit speech. That comes in no small part from remembering how the Bush Administration has used 9/11 as a tool for discouraging criticism. My blood has yet to thaw entirely from when Ari Fleischer, then the presidental press secretary, warned reporters after 9/11 that we all need to be careful about what we say!



I'm in full agreement with you. There are areas where I am willing to fight tooth and nail to keep my civil liberties. I don't want the government operating an ID card scheme with my details, nor do I want them to create a DNA database with my details - swap the DNA and next thing I know I'm sat in a prison cell with the bloke down the street who's been chopping heads off for the last 10 years.

I completely agree with your point around criticism over the New York attack, but I think there are two separate issues here - legitimate criticism of government policy and the deliberate attempt to dehumanise a race/religion and then follow that up with extreme action. Personally, I believe there is a distinction.

We have a responsibility to the people around us and they have a responsibility to us. Society just won't work if we all think we can do whatever the fuck we want to whomever we want, whether that be speech or action. The saying over here - it takes two to tango.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:05:20 PM   
WyrdRich


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Joined: 1/3/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Wyrd, if you're suggesting that I'll defend the excesses of the USSR, simply because my politics is left of centre, we're on a completely different level of thought.




      I didn't think you would, North, but surely you would agree that Marxist theory (I'll give you, very poorly applied) has led to some 'unpleasantness' in the last century.  Should it have been repressed for that reason?

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:21:11 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Wyrd it didn't. Marxism was all about guaranteeing the rights of your average man/woman on the street (from big business vultures). Is this such a bad thing? I hear much of the same on these boards - maybe the tools and technique are different, but the objective is the same.

I really can't find fault with Marx. A utopia - yes, an unachievable utopia - yes, unachievable because of human frailty - yes.

A great idea, but Marx was wrong because he placed too much faith in the likes of you and I.  He thought that given the choice, we'd take the let's all live happily ever after option. What he failed to realise is that life is all about number one for the majority of the population.

My take on Marx is he understood human existence in a way the short-sighted can never see it. It's all well and good looking after number one, but if you have no friends to share your happiness with then what's the point. That was Marx in a nutshell.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:28:10 PM   
Jack45


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		The plaque on display at Auschwitz from 1948-89 had the figure of four million. Today the same plaque reads 1.5 million casually reducing the number of deaths by 2.5 million.
Not quite sure exactly what "Holocaust Denial" is but would that include what has happened at Auschwitz, that one might wonder if the 6 Million number is accurate.
This Zundel was a mentor of a  former Max Planck chemist Germar Rudolf, who is on trial in Germany on similar charges.

When the ability for debate and examination on a particular theory or thesis is forcibly removed, one can only surmise that the theory or thesis is completely flawed.

Historian David Irving was released earlier this year from  an Austrian prison for similar charges.

But I cannot help asking myself what sort of truth it is that requires these sanctions.
--AUBERON WAUGH writing about David Irving in the London Telegraph.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:29:50 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline 		     That's a far nicer way of describing where Marx was wrong than I would use, North.  Yours is close enough, fundamentally, that I shan't quibble. 

     

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:32:35 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Just an observation:
Many of the people on this board who feel that Jane Fonda should not be allowed to verbalize her opinion about an illegal war in Viet Nam are in favor of a nazi claiming that they never killed any jews, and that those who say they did are liars of the first order. 
Jane Fonda is an american citizen who is entitled to the full protection of the first ammendment and the nazi is a german who is in flagrant violation of the laws of that country and not entitled to any protection of the first ammendment. 
thompson

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:39:18 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I am completely in favor of Fonda making her views heard widley and loudly.  And in the right of others to respond.  She is exactly the sort we want to keep out in the open. 

Sunlight is the best disenfectant

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:40:57 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I never stated that the Nazis had a right to advocate killing Jews back in Hitler's Germany

I said that people have a right to question what we know about history today... it is rather odd that you would build a straw man against "people" instead of not naming names to address your beef directly, but whatever floats your boat dude



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:42:44 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack45

Historian David Irving was released earlier this year from  an Austrian prison for similar charges.



Seeing as you've brought him up, he is a wanker of the highest order - a complete and utter cock end.

He was actually locked up in Austria in 2006 for something he said in 1989. Only a half-wit would go back to the same country and think they could ride above the law. I mean, for fucks sake, talk about dense.

Some say historian, others say joker.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Jack45)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:51:06 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		juliaoceana;
You might want to reread my post before you assume it was directed at you.
thompson

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:54:15 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		My bad

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:55:00 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Wyrd, if you're suggesting that I'll defend the excesses of the USSR, simply because my politics is left of centre, we're on a completely different level of thought.




     I didn't think you would, North, but surely you would agree that Marxist theory (I'll give you, very poorly applied) has led to some 'unpleasantness' in the last century.  Should it have been repressed for that reason?


WyrdRich:
One might make the same observation vis-a-vis capitalism and the treatment of native americans, blacks, latinos and asians in this country.
thompson

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 7:57:35 PM   
Wolf1020


Posts: 447
Joined: 11/7/2005
From: Anderson, SC
Status: offline
quote:

NG, we here in America have an additional freedom that would have prevented the nazis from comming into power in Germany had they had it.
It's called the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bare arms.
If the German people had killed a few hundred or a few thousand of those nazis perhaps they would have rethought their whole gameplan.

I like this guy

As to the person who said something along the lines of a lot of good it does when they take them away?  I asure you anyone tries to pull a NOLA on me and I will be taking many of them with me.

_____________________________

"The less people know about how sausages and laws are made, the better they'll sleep at night."~ Otto von Bismarck

"Fish and visitors smell in three days"~Benjamin Franklin

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Holocaust denier sentenced to 5 years - 2/17/2007 8:06:32 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf1020

quote:

NG, we here in America have an additional freedom that would have prevented the nazis from comming into power in Germany had they had it.
It's called the Second Amendment, the right to keep and bare arms.
If the German people had killed a few hundred or a few thousand of those nazis perhaps they would have rethought their whole gameplan.

I like this guy

As to the person who said something along the lines of a lot of good it does when they take them away?  I asure you anyone tries to pull a NOLA on me and I will be taking many of them with me.


Well, it sounds great. I take my hat off to you. However, what is the point in shooting someone in the head? This isn't some sort of bravado, nor is it a computer game. This is the intricacies of human existence.

By the way, where were your guns when bush and associates were indirectly and directly causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq? Not interested or disarmed?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Wolf1020)
Profile   Post #: 120
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