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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 2:57:36 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Fascinating, but no insight and no facts.

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 3:04:15 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

The problem is that human secularism has, in its roots, an inability to defend itself from the predations of an emotional, dynamic system of beliefs such as Islam.  The basic problem is human secularism's core belief of "relativism".
"Relativism" means that no one system of belief is seen as more valid, or more correct than any other.  That "right" and "wrong" are situational.  Multi-culturism is the expression of this belief in relativism.
Human secularism doesn't appeal to most people in the emotional center that is the real core of a human being.  Human secularism makes the mistake in believing that the appeal to "reason" and "logic" will succeed in overcoming emotional objections.
I think this is a mistaken belief.


This is the extract from Firmhand post 34 that NG doesnt understand.
This same attitude of secularists is at the root of the social disintegration that is occuring in in the UK !!

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 3:16:18 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

The problem is that human secularism has, in its roots, an inability to defend itself from the predations of an emotional, dynamic system of beliefs such as Islam.  The basic problem is human secularism's core belief of "relativism".
"Relativism" means that no one system of belief is seen as more valid, or more correct than any other.  That "right" and "wrong" are situational.  Multi-culturism is the expression of this belief in relativism.
Human secularism doesn't appeal to most people in the emotional center that is the real core of a human being.  Human secularism makes the mistake in believing that the appeal to "reason" and "logic" will succeed in overcoming emotional objections.
I think this is a mistaken belief.


This is the extract from Firmhand post 34 that NG doesnt understand.
This same attitude of secularists is at the root of the social disintegration that is occuring in in the UK !!


For my money, the above is Firmhand's opinion - I'm sure valid to some, possibly many. Others will disagree. That's the way it goes. Grand eh.

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 3:18:11 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Maybe your definition of "Eurabia" is the communication issue here. I'm assuming you mean Islamic doctrine becoming the majority view. In order for this to happen, there has to be mass conversion to Islam and this ain't going to happen.

The indicators are not pointing to "the muslim belief system having a strong effect on Europe". We're secularised - no religious doctrine is going to take hold here. My point about religion and god is that we're not interested - a recent poll suggests young Britons are more interested in Britney Spears than Jesus (nothing to write home about, but an indication of our lack of regard for religion). The only indicators exist in the minds of our right-wing, European friends who are living in paranoia-induced fear of subversion.


Well, I think that the declining birth rate of "secular Europe" combined with the high fertility and immigration of Islamic cultural groups will take care of a lot of the issue, without "mass conversions" of any sort.

Populations in geograpic areas are constantly replaced throughout history.  There is nothing new in that concept.  My point is that the current, and historical populations and cultures of Europe are being replaced, and may well eventually simply be marginalized by the tyranny of demographics.

The replacement birth rate of secular Europe doesn't meet the requirements for a stable or replacement population rate.  The muslim populations rates of birth and immigration not only do meet the replacement rate for the European populations, they are explosive in mathematical terms.

Europe is currently facing two different demographic paths: a declining one for "old Europe", a surging one for "Islamic Europe". 

The social and cultural factors of the Islamic population contribute and reinforce their continued population surge.  The social and cultural factors of secular Europe's population reinforce the factors that lead to a declining population.

Absent some major changes in the demographics or culture, your beliefs and or desires in the matter don't really matter.

FirmKY


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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 3:42:21 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Well, I think that the declining birth rate of "secular Europe" combined with the high fertility and immigration of Islamic cultural groups will take care of a lot of the issue, without "mass conversions" of any sort.

Populations in geograpic areas are constantly replaced throughout history. 



This goes wthout saying, but you could apply this same logic to any part of the world, including the US.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

There is nothing new in that concept.  My point is that the current, and historical populations and cultures of Europe are being replaced, and may well eventually simply be marginalized by the tyranny of demographics.



My point is inconsistent with yours. I do not believe the culture of Europe is being threatened by Islam. There is no evidence for this. There is no mass conversion, nor wish or actions to adopt Muslim culture.

The biggest outside influence on European culture is black America - by far. Britain has pretty much absorbed black US culture and given it a distinctly British feel. Soul is so embedded in our music conscience that most people don't realise it. All the influential British bands of the 1980s were influenced by soul - The Jam, The Smiths etc. Much of our urban music - such as drum and bass, grime etc are the offspring of soul. There's no doubt that a significant part of 1950s to 1990s British music was spent copying black America - now we've given it our own slant which is uniquely British, but the influence is still there for all to see.

There is no such attempt to tap into Muslim culture, never has been and I doubt there will be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

The replacement birth rate of secular Europe doesn't meet the requirements for a stable or replacement population rate.  The muslim populations rates of birth and immigration not only do meet the replacement rate for the European populations, they are explosive in mathematical terms.



No government is going to allow an economy to be ruined by an over-supply of labour. It isn't going to happen. These people have their social status to think about and they aren't about to relinquish it by having an unsustainable population. Countries like Britain are full to the brim........as soon as a blade of grass is spotted it's a case of get a building on it. There's no scope for population expansion. We will remain around the 60 million mark.

Firmhand, there'll be times when I post and people sit back and think he's just not getting the US and what we're about. That's fine, you can't understand a nation from a message board. Similarly, you're not getting what we're about.



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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 3:44:31 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		NG we both live in the UK, Can you not see that over the last few years since the incidents in New York, Madrid and London carried out by Islamic fundamentalists that there has been a slow reappraisal of the secularist/ multicultural agenda.

Critical articles in the serious newspapers about immigration and Islamic fanaticism.
Should Muslim woman wear the veil ?
Should Islamic schools exist?
Only within the last week or two an Islamic Saudi supported school was closed down when not two years ago it was rated as achieving the required educational standards.
Should we spend so much taxpayers money on translation facilities.
Criticism of the amount of Legal aid given to lawyers who fight for the Human Rights of illegal immigrants.
Should social service offices have signs in Urdu Bengali (language ?) etc etc
The social/financial costs  re  Housing Welfare Schooling etc attributable to accelerating  rates of immigration.
Even that careerist hypocrite Trevor Phillips has expressed concern.

In other words the authorities are waking up to the blunders ,vis a vis secularism, multiculturalism and  permissive touchy feely relativism that they themselves have committed.
You however appear to believe that all is progressing well !

Look to India and exactly the same tensions exist.
But you appear to believe that all is well !!!!

I should use the Guardian/Independant for their rightful purpose if I were you, putting your fish and chips in, and thats the polite version !!!


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/17/2007 3:46:25 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 3:57:12 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Taking one of your points as an example - "should Muslim women wear the veil?"

The "reappraisal" went as far as insisting it should not be worn in the classroom, which is absolutely right because children learn from facial expressions. In public and the privacy of their own homes, it's a case of do as you please. The debate really hasn't progressed beyond this point.

I always struggle to understand why someone would want to take away the right of a woman to wear whatever she wants to wear. Why would you want to do this? Who is "reappraising" this? Thankfully, they're in the minority so the debate hit a brick wall a long time ago.

Seeks, maybe you see British culture being eroded. In my world, I don't see that. I see Britain being enriched by diversity.

Be honest, how boring would an all white Britain be? It would be one, big hell of god-awful chats about the tea and coffee making facilities and how we used to have an empire back in the day......the post-imperial malaise and acceptance that the best days have gone. Look to the future, not the past.

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:03:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		NG,

I don't think you and I are communicating very well at all.

My last comment to you - not intending to anger you at all - is that your inability to understand my point, is exactly the type of secular cultural trait that will lead to the continued decline of the non-Islamic European culture.  It's a cultural blind-spot.

And a deadly one at that.

FirmKY


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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:17:15 PM   
losttreasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

My point is inconsistent with yours. I do not believe the culture of Europe is being threatened by Islam. There is no evidence for this. There is no mass conversion, nor wish or actions to adopt Muslim culture.


NG... the Muslims do not need to convert Europeans.  As their numbers grow, they will eventually become the majority... then their culture and people will replace you. 

And Human Secularism will pave the way because "it's all good".  Who needs threats?


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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:21:13 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

ORIGINAL NG
I always struggle to understand why someone would want to take away the right of a woman to wear whatever she wants to wear. Why would you want to do this? Who is "reappraising" this? Thankfully, they're in the minority so the debate hit a brick wall a long time ago.


Well many Muslim patriarchs do for a start, ie control what women should wear, to the point of murdering their daughters/wives if their behaviour/dress sense does not meet the required standards. 

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:28:27 PM   
losttreasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Well many Muslim patriarchs do for a start, ie control what women should wear, to the point of murdering their daughters/wives if their behaviour/dress sense does not meet the required standards.


I wonder what will happen when Islamic culture is dominate and the minority of European women are required to wear veils. 


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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:32:42 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

NG,

I don't think you and I are communicating very well at all.

My last comment to you - not intending to anger you at all - is that your inability to understand my point, is exactly the type of secular cultural trait that will lead to the continued decline of the non-Islamic European culture.  It's a cultural blind-spot.

And a deadly one at that.

FirmKY



Firmhand, I think we're communicating as best we can because we're the products of two very different environments and two very different outlooks on the world.

Yes we have a Muslim community but (this is the key difference of opinion) you see this as eroding European culture whereas I see this as enriching European culture. I like diversity, I like the idea of Britain absorbing ideas from the rest of the world and giving them a British slant. Another culture does not faze me in the slightest. So, what you see as a negative, I see as a positive. Britain is a place which absorbs cultures and brings them into mainstream society - maybe it's different over there, maybe you have more segregation - I'm not sure on this point.

To be frank, the facts don't support your argument. The only threat to British and European culture is the US. In fact, you could put a good argument together to suggest US culture has colonised Europe. You would then be in the realms of finding the starting point e.g. US convenience living could quite reasonably be seen as the product of British culture - a long story.

The point is, we are not about to be usurped by external ideas. We take them in, master them and give them our own slant. There is no clash of cultures. The real clash is between moderates and extremists all over the world. Give me a moderate Muslim over a dedicated, right-wing Briton any day of the week - I would gladly swap a few.


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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:34:57 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		It is a philosophy called "Cultural Reletivism" that is causing a decay of western society and civilization.

Cultural reletivists basically believe that no culture is better or worst than another. Basically it is a belief that everyone and every culture is equal. But there is a serious flaw.
For example, Cultural Reletivists believe that even though some muslim societies practice Sharia law and stone women to death for infidelity, that this particular muslim society society is not any less superior than that of a westernized modern society that gives women equal rights.

These people also have trouble grasping the simple concept of an ultimate right and wrong. They look at the September 11th attacks and although say it was wrong for terrorists to do that, they also believe America was wrong for doing things that provoked it and therefore deserved it.
You cant say a woman deserved to be raped because she provoked it to happen because of how she dresses. You can't say a bank deserved to be robbed because they stole money from its customers. As one poster already put it...two wrongs do not make a right.

I feel that much of Islam is trapped in a world that has long past. And the entire religion needs a reformation similar to what Christianity went through in the middle ages. I also think that mid-eastern nations need to take religion out the government in order to truely begin to advance.

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:35:13 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		a response to post 51 that got split
I think we are in for some "interesting times" before that day arrives lol
interesting times = serious social problems.

I really hope I am wrong and NG is right, cant see it though.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 2/17/2007 4:38:28 PM >

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:45:13 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave


I wonder what will happen when Islamic culture is dominate and the minority of European women are required to wear veils. 



They'll get strapped to the wall with the rest of their feline friends. We don't discriminate on race - they're all game for a healthy spot of masochism. In fact, if she's wearing a veil it will save me the cost of some head gear.......if she has a different colour skin....well that's great, diversity etc .....if she's a conservative however, the options are endless.....I wouldn't fancy her chances of escaping the experience pain-free.

LostTreasure, I really do not care about race, religion, nationality etc. To me, it's irrelevant. I like difference and I actually want British culture to attract new aspects. So, any notion of the erosion of European culture is no big concern for me.

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 4:49:35 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Well many Muslim patriarchs do for a start, ie control what women should wear, to the point of murdering their daughters/wives if their behaviour/dress sense does not meet the required standards. 



Many? Any evidence of this in Britain?

Anyway, since when have the people on this board been overly concerned about womens' choice? Yeah, they have an input but if you tell her she's wearing a blue dress then she's wearing a blue dress.

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 5:41:02 PM   
losttreasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

They'll get strapped to the wall with the rest of their feline friends. We don't discriminate on race - they're all game for a healthy spot of masochism. In fact, if she's wearing a veil it will save me the cost of some head gear.......if she has a different colour skin....well that's great, diversity etc .....if she's a conservative however, the options are endless.....I wouldn't fancy her chances of escaping the experience pain-free.


Should I consider myself fortunate to be on this side of the pond?  ;)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

LostTreasure, I really do not care about race, religion, nationality etc. To me, it's irrelevant. I like difference and I actually want British culture to attract new aspects. So, any notion of the erosion of European culture is no big concern for me.


NG, I don't think anyone here is advocating cultural isolation.  Diversity and appreciation for other cultures is healthy for a society.  On the other hand, apathy can lead to not just the erosion of European culture, but the loss of it.

From your words here, Brits aren't passionate about their own culture. 

Islam is.

And when you place passion against disinterest in the battle for survival ... which do you think will win?

I would suggest that what you will find in the future is not the British culture flawlessly seasoned with the flavor of Islam that you so quaintly describe.  But rather a devoutly religious Islamic culture that has over powered and ursurped the spiritually ambiguous and secular British culture that you enjoy.

And what happens when those cultures who are tolerant and accepting of others have all disappeared?  

I submit that in order to preserve tolerance, you have to be passionate enough about it to stand up for it.

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 5:59:21 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To be frank, the facts don't support your argument. The only threat to British and European culture is the US. In fact, you could put a good argument together to suggest US culture has colonised Europe. You would then be in the realms of finding the starting point e.g. US convenience living could quite reasonably be seen as the product of British culture - a long story.


uh ... which of my facts are inaccurate, specifically?

FirmKY


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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 6:00:36 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

From your words here, Brits aren't passionate about their own culture. 



This basic premise is so, so far wide of the mark. I love this place, everyone I know loves this place. Ok, we have our mild eccentricities, but it's not all bad. For a start, we have Argos, nectar points, South-Westerly prevailing winds, we have no natural predators (although a badger can give you a nasty nip), breakfast is always served between 7 and 9 (not a minute later, or you will be cast out into hell), we have understatement, we're tough on slogans and tough on the causes of slogans, we're an upbeat people but, as our weather is mostly overcast, we're infused with a wistful melancholy. We're a very indiosyncratic people. Sometimes there's no rhyme nor reason, but it's a great place to live. We have deep-rooted social events that stretch back thousands of years and I wouldn't give them up for anything. I could never live in any other country for a long period of time because this is my home and I'm quintessentially Northern English. All my hobbies are English - everything I value is English. You can guarantee from me you won't find anyone more passionate about their country than me. The difference is I want Britain to be a place that embraces difference, that doesn't invade countries and kill people, that is fair, that looks at other people and treats them equally - none of this our lives are worth more than yours bollocks. A place that you can be proud of and other people look and think "yeah they have a few things going for them".

Most of all, we are tolerant, we invite other cultures into this country and this gives us an edge. You ask 50 people to explain Englishness and you'll get 50 different answers because we're a mish mash of people and cultures - a mongrel people with a mongrel language based on taking in the attitudes of others and giving it our own unique slant.

Why on earth would I want to discriminate based on religion or anything else? This place is a mongrel dog. A hundred different breeds rolled into one. It's what gives us an edge, diversity is not a choice for us, it is us.

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RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy - 2/17/2007 7:05:12 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


A confident, vibrant and growing belief system such as Islam, faced against a reticent, unsure, and emotionally unappealing belief system such as human secularism will almost certainly lead to a society in which the least dynamic system accomodates the more dynamic and growing system.


I think you neglect to consider that separation of Church and State provides an upper limit to the influence religious fundamentalist crazies can have of our society. I guess people will have to give up the 10 Commandments and Nativity fight bullshit in order to keep the other displays of religious insanity to a minimum.

Which is a good thing. Tax Dollars shouldn't be wasted on Christmas Trees.





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