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Padriag -> RE: a huge difference between a troll and a psychopath (4/8/2005 5:07:27 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
quote:
ORIGINAL: Padriag
There's one part of this Taggard I have to REALLY disagree with... SSN. Folks, do not EVER give your Social Security Number out to ANYONE online, that's just begging for identity theft. Someone who knows how, with nothing more than your name and SSN can end up with access to your medical records, bank records, tax records, copy of your drivers license, school transcripts, access your bank accounts, get duplicates of your credit cards, etc. They can, if its the wrong person, really mess your life up.
I think we are going to disagree on this point, but I have had this debate with several others. Just hear me out before you jump down my throat...
Alrighty [:)]
:: Reads carefully and ponders ::
In many regards I agree with you Taggard. I think in a number of ways you an I share quite a few views in common. I get the sense reading your posts (not just this one) that we are both very logical, analytical and methodical people. We both tend to approach things as problem solvers. And I also get the sense we both like to orgnize things, categorize them, and generally keep things orderly. I respect that in another person, I think those are great traits to have.
I agree that what we do in this lifestyle involves risk, and I agree that trust is extremely important in this lifestyle. No argument on those points. Having read your post and also your response to Emerald's, I believe I see several points on which our logic and our approach diverge. I'll start by pointing those out and then see if I can show you how my conclusions and yours developed differently. Let me know if any of my assumptions about you or your thinking are incorrect.
We both approach the issue of trust. We both look for ways in which to test that trust by asking something of the other person and then judging their responses, no problem so far.
We diverge in this in that you seem to base part of that process on creating what I would call insurance for lack of a better word. By this I mean you look for things that would insure that they will not harm you, sue you, retaliate against you in the event that things go wrong. I see this in your reliance of contracts as some means of legal protection, SSNs, etc. Its partly a filter but it also sounds very much like you are taking out an insurance policy... if each has this information and either decides to "break the agreement" it serves as a means of protection. Does that sound like a fair summation?
For me, trust is based much less on forms of insurance and more on my estimation of the person's character, my judgement about how far they can be trusted and in what ways they can be trusted. I base this on my interactions with them over an period of time.
Here too we seem to diverge. In your posts above you mentioned asking for and giving SSN after a week of everyday conversations. Elsewhere in your posts you talk about meeting for public and private play. From that I gather that one of your goals is to find play partners which may or may not develop into relationships. You've developed your methods of testing and building trust in context of that. I'm not looking for play partners, casual sex doesn't interests me (I can hear the gasps of shock, but honestly folk, not every guy is on the prowl to get laid), I don't play in public at all and in private only with those I've established some sort of relationship with. I think this is a critical difference.
Since I generally take about a month to even consider meeting someone, I spend at least that much time getting to know them and assessing their character, personality, etc. I've also established a personal relationship with this person that, if I continue to pursue things, I'm hoping will turn into a long term relationship. If we play in private before then, that's a bonus, but not a necessity or a goal on my part. Given that I've found that I have far less need for insurance when dealing with the people I meet. Without that need, I didn't develop the kinds of approaches you have. For me, the test of character alone has been sufficient.
But, as I have read over your posts and considered it, comparing and contrasting it with my own methods its caused me to stop an reconsider some things. I still don't agree that SSNs are a good idea, and I'll address below. What I have considered is that while neither of us reports any bad experienes with the methods we take, there are risks to both of us. I think we are both rational enough to know that the lack of proof is not itself proof, that is, just because nothing bad has happened so far doesn't mean it can't or won't. In your case, what if someone does abuse that personal information? In my case, what happens if my judgement of their character goes very wrong? Taking my case, it would probably be good if I did use things like contracts more often. I'll have to adapt the idea of contracts to my own needs since play isn't something I focus on and I have to think about both if contracts could be used for just a general meeting, and if so, should they. Points for me to ponder.
As I said, I still think using SSNs as a test of trust or a filter is a bad idea. Part of this is because, as Emerald points out, trust is not a binary choice... we do not absolutely trust or distrust someone... we trust by degrees. That is, I may trust Bob with my wife, but not my money. George on the other hand might be so trust worthy with money I trust him more than my banker, but I wouldn't leave him alone with my girlfriend for five minutes. (fictional characters and situations just for example). There are people I would personally trust in a sexual play situation that I would not trust with my credit card, much less my SSN. I believe that this is a crux of why we disagree, I don't think you are takinng into consideration enough the very human factor that some people can be very trustworthy in some regards but less so in others; that our trust in them is not and should not be a blanket statement equal in all regards.
That point asside, I also disagree that SSNs are good test of trust for other reasons. You stated in your post that you use this as a filter to avoid trolls, players, frauds, etc. I certainly understand your desire to do that, and share that desire. First, there is no guarantee that the SSN you are given is real. I realize that, from what you say, you have the means to validate that but most of us do not and that makes the concept far less useful for most people. But even if we could all do searches on the information, there are other problems as well. Part of your intent is to weed out people who are being dishonest... and based on your remarks I take it you would tend to distrust someone not willing to give you their SSN. Have you considered that there are outside factors involved that are making that test unfair on them? By that I mean this, currently identity theft is a growing problem. Many people, from lawyers, to bankers, to credit card companies, to the US government itself are advising the public not to give out their SSN to anyone, with specific exceptions. That places a great deal of pressure and influence on most of us to keep that information private, and not only that but to view any private individual that requests (or insists) on the information with a good deal of suspicion. Given that, have you considered that you may be putting potential play partners in a very difficult position of having to decided whether or not to trust you over the advice of so many other institutions? That further, you may be making yourself look like a scam artist simply by making that a point of contention?
Let me be clear to everyone on that last part, I'm not accusing Taggard of anything. I don't believe, based on what I've seen, that he has any dishonest intentions with asking for SSN information. I do however still very much disagree with asking for or using this kind of information as a test of trust.
You pointed out in your response to Emerald that giving you a first and last name, but that is not true of most of us. I do not have that ability, nor do I wish to have it. I can think of no honest reason for me to have that ability, while I can also think of a number or reasons why the general public most certainly should not have it. SSNs, for better or worse, have become de facto ID numbers in the US. The system has been clumsily created piece meal and has some serious security issues, no arguments from me on that. The ease with which you seem to be able to get information that is supposed to be private is something I find a little frightening. One more reason to lobby the government to make it more secure. Either way, not everyone has the tools at their disposal that you seem to have, so on that point as well I question how useful this will be as a filter or test of trust to most people and again that causes me to disagree with the method.
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