Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Iran


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Iran Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 9:31:05 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		Executive in this sense, means enact action.  Typically, Congress only has power to make or pass law; it is the responsibility of the Executive branch to enact and enforce said laws.  This is why the heads of the FBI, Federal Marshals, and Federal Prison system (as examples) all fall under various secretaries of the President's Cabinet.

Affirming or declaring a state of war would, then, be an 'Executive' power or 'Action' vice a simple law.  War isn't a law, but a declaration of a state of war is required for special appropriations for war funds. 

This is clearly a necessary tool, to ensure the President doesn't arbitrarily declare wars against the wishes of Congress on a regular basis; naturally, he might be impeached if he were to declare war against, say, Canada; but without the commander in Chief, the responsibility for repealing said declaration of war could be assumed by Congress.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 9:36:54 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		"Executive in this sense, means enact action."

The only actions permitted are those EXPLICITLY GRANTED. As long as ALL the President does is enforce the legislation of Congress, that's not a problem...

When The President puts someone in the Pentagon to make up lies ( Doug Feith ), to promote a private agenda, that's going too far, isn't it?

When The President shows a pattern of half-truths, misstatements, and falsifications, that's going too far, isn't it?

Of course, if you want to ignore what A2S2 "SAYS"...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 9:38:26 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

While not siding with Ahmadinejad, the "western" press mislabeled his speech widely as he never said he advocated for the "destruction" of Israel, but was showing the dangers Israel posed to Iran....this misconstrued view has led to be used as base to attack Iran and for Washington to support a war against the Iranian people (we know in such wars its not the regime or the members of the govenrment who suffer, but common people). Granted however, that Ahmadinejad is a "populist demagogue" and is making Iran take too much heat when its not necessary knowing how touchy and gun-ho the Washington government is right now.


uh ... I guess you consider Aljazeera a "western" news source?

Ahmadinejad: Wipe Israel off map

Ahmadinejad's later "clarification" where he relented and just said that all Jews should be moved to Europe might mean that he has softened his position of genocide.

Or maybe it's just a bit of a retreat because the rest of the world didn't particularly like his admission of the desire for genocide?

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to MasterKalif)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 9:40:52 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Was that THE GOVERNMENT of Israel? From the quote the context is unclear.

I agree. The GOVERNMENT of Israel needs to go. The diaspora didn't end because it was convenient for the Brits to play the Jews against the Arabs. So why kid ourselves?

ALL religious oriented governments are trouble.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/21/2007 9:41:27 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 9:47:13 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


The Executive powers of declaring war and issuing letters of marquee and reprisal are some of the few executive powers expressly reserved to the Congress.


If they're reserved for Congress, why do you call them Executive Powers? That makes no sense at all.

quote:


All others not enumerated for the Congress, including foreign policy are powers that the President has by the inherent right of the executive power vested in him.


UH... All power not enumerated are reserved by THE PEOPLE and THE STATES. Or did you forget the 9th and 10th Amendment.

There is no "Inherent Right" It's EXPLICITLY delegated or it is RESERVED by The People.


FB ... the act using military forces is generally considered an Executive power - or at least was, at the time.  The point is that it was an Executive power specifically given to the Legislative body.  In the absence of a specific constitutional grant to the Legislative, it would have unquestionably have remained within the power of the Executive.

That's why it's called "an Executive power".

***

All others not enumerated for the Congress,

... means all other Executive powers, not all other rights.

You have a great facility for mis-understanding basic concepts, methinks.  Or just a desire to be argumentative.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 9:52:52 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


The Executive powers of declaring war and issuing letters of marquee and reprisal are some of the few executive powers expressly reserved to the Congress.


If they're reserved for Congress, why do you call them Executive Powers? That makes no sense at all.

quote:


All others not enumerated for the Congress, including foreign policy are powers that the President has by the inherent right of the executive power vested in him.


UH... All power not enumerated are reserved by THE PEOPLE and THE STATES. Or did you forget the 9th and 10th Amendment.

There is no "Inherent Right" It's EXPLICITLY delegated or it is RESERVED by The People.


FB ... the act using military forces is generally considered an Executive power - or at least was, at the time. The point is that it was an Executive power specifically given to the Legislative body. In the absence of a specific constitutional grant to the Legislative, it would have unquestionably have remained within the power of the Executive.



BULLSHIT. WITHOUT a specific constitutional grant to the EXECUTIVE it remains the power of The People.

quote:


All others not enumerated for the Congress,

... means all other Executive powers, not all other rights.


What is this quote from?

I ask because the 10th Amendment says:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people. ”

quote:


You have a great facility for mis-understanding basic concepts, methinks. Or just a desire to be argumentative.


Really? *I* can properly quote the 10th Amendment. What does it say about other people's abilities when they cannot even properly QUOTE the Bill of Rights? Either they are wholly incompetent or have an agenda with precludes honesty.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 9:54:25 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Was that THE GOVERNMENT of Israel? From the quote the context is unclear.

I agree. The GOVERNMENT of Israel needs to go. The diaspora didn't end because it was convenient for the Brits to play the Jews against the Arabs. So why kid ourselves?

ALL religious oriented governments are trouble.


Another failure to understand basic reality.

Israel has a secular government, not one "religiously orientated" as you imply.

Or do you mean Iran, which is definitely a "religiously orientated" government?

As far as you trying to make a distinction (as others have attempted) between the destruction of the Israeli government versus the destruction of the Israeli people ... this is either a psychological denial or an intentional attempt at political obfuscation.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 9:59:02 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Since you couldn't properly cite or understand the 10th Amendment, let's stay focused on that.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:10:13 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Farg is right, the constitution does not explicity grant the gov( any Branch of it) to buy Paper, Ink or Staples.  No where does it authorize the purchase or use of telephones.  Or the right to buy fuel to run vehicles.  They have been unconstitutional and illegitimate since day one.  I couldn't find the right to issue badges anywhere either.  The whole mess should be destroyed.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:13:37 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Farg is right, the constitution does not explicity grant the gov( any Branch of it) to buy Paper, Ink or Staples. No where does it authorize the purchase or use of telephones. Or the right to buy fuel to run vehicles. They have been unconstitutional and illegitimate since day one. I couldn't find the right to issue badges anywhere either. The whole mess should be destroyed.


Which in a Constitutional REPUBLIC is exactly as it should be.

THAT is why you live in a STATE. The FDA is a pointless waste of money.

NYS Agriculture and Markets is the way it should be.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:13:50 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611
Iran may not be at peace much longer whether the US is involved or not. Israel has stated that they will not allow Iran to possess nuclear weapons and will take pre-emptive strikes if Iran tests a nuclear device.

Iran's population is also a question mark. 70% of the population is under age 30. And most of the youth is not all that happy with the extremist government currently in power. In fact, some well placed bombs combined with an uprising could crash the government and spark revolution. That would be a risky strategy to take, but it is something that could possibly happen 10-20 years down the road as the younger generation begins to move into power.

Ahmadinejad is insane in my opinion. This is a guy that has said his ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel. And he claims the Holocaust is a jewish conspiracy and never occured. I dont trust the guy and I do think he will start a war one way or another. The Supreme Leader of Iran also stated that the destruction of Israel will occur. You can bash Israel all you want, but when the leaders of another country are developing nukes and talking about their destruction...I can't blame Israel for being concerned.


cyberdude611, Israel is a far more destabilizing force than Iran is at the moment....Iran having nukes will make things more balanced int he region for a while...The US needs to stop supporting Israel in my opinion as Israel is not even an unconditional ally of the United States, and has drawn the US away from its interests in the region, which has only benefited Israel.

I am not sure on what you base your judgement to say that a few bombs and a few CIA-recreated "uprising" will necessarily topple a regime led by the Ayatollah's....maybe you forgot how they were willing to kill anyone opposing the "revolution"? What makes you think they would be less willing to do so now if their hold on power became precarious? The younger generation unfortunately has only experienced life under the circumstances dictated by the Ayatollah's and as such may not be aware of how good Iran was before, or how life can be that different without them in power.

While not siding with Ahmadinejad, the "western" press mislabeled his speech widely as he never said he advocated for the "destruction" of Israel, but was showing the dangers Israel posed to Iran....this misconstrued view has led to be used as base to attack Iran and for Washington to support a war against the Iranian people (we know in such wars its not the regime or the members of the govenrment who suffer, but common people). Granted however, that Ahmadinejad is a "populist demagogue" and is making Iran take too much heat when its not necessary knowing how touchy and gun-ho the Washington government is right now.

Then maybe Iran is Israel's problem, and it should not be the problem of the United States...


Amadinejad's quote was translated by mid-east media outlets like Al-Jazeera. Even those outlets say he called for Israel's destruction. There is nothing lost in translation.
Israel poses no threat to Iran if the Iranian government disbands its nuclear ambitions. And if Iran stops supporting terrorist activity in Iraq, the US will have no reason to give military threats. But the Iranian government is instead going with a policy that will put them on a collision course with several nations including the US and Israel.

If Iran's nuclear ambitions are for peaceful purposes, why are they not complying with the IAEA and the standards set by the UN security council? Why is a nation that is floating on oil spending large sums of money to develop nuclear energy? That nation wont run out of oil for 100 years, yet they feel a need for a crash program to develop nuclear energy as soon as possible? Iran obviously has other intentions here.

And you can claim Iran has a right to do what it wants domestically...but they DO NOT have a right to interfere in Iraq. If they are funding and supporting attacks in Iraq against the newly democratically-elected government there...that is clearly an act of war.

(in reply to MasterKalif)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:13:55 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

UH... All power not enumerated are reserved by THE PEOPLE and THE STATES. Or did you forget the 9th and 10th Amendment.

There is no "Inherent Right" It's EXPLICITLY delegated or it is RESERVED by The People.


Article II. - The Executive Branch

Section 1 - The President

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

BULLSHIT. WITHOUT a specific constitutional grant to the EXECUTIVE it remains the power of The People.


Article II. - The Executive Branch

Section 1 - The President

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL:

All others not enumerated for the Congress,

... means all other Executive powers, not all other rights.


What is this quote from?

I ask because the 10th Amendment says:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved for the States respectively, or to the people. ”


The quote is from ...  well ... me. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Really? *I* can properly quote the 10th Amendment. What does it say about other people's abilities when they cannot even properly QUOTE the Bill of Rights? Either they are wholly incompetent or have an agenda with precludes honesty.


Well, since I wasn't quoting the Bill of Rights, your claim of super-knowledge and the only correct understanding is a bit of ... self-aggrandization.

I'd suggest a little more research in Constitutional and American history.  The link I gave in my post from the Cornell Law School might be a good starting place:
Foreign Policy is vested in the President as part of his executive duties and responsiblities:  Long, detailed link covering the legalities of this since the adoption of the Constitution.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:15:53 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Farg, the fact is that the consitution provides a method of determining who is right in your argument with firm.  It is the System of courts created under the constittuion.  And they have consistently ruled that you are wrong.  Adhereing to the constitution as you pretend to do, requires that you accept USSC rulings as the law of the land, right.  the constitutuion says that the System of courts created by congress and staffed by the executive( with Congress having advise and consent) does, not you.  The use of millitary short of a "formal declaration of war" is 100% ok.  Having an army is 100% ok.  Having a marine corp is 100% ok.  The War powers act is 100% ok.  The courts have ruled on all this stuff many times. You got no leg to stand on, but some nonsense web sites. 

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:21:44 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Farg is right, the constitution does not explicity grant the gov( any Branch of it) to buy Paper, Ink or Staples.  No where does it authorize the purchase or use of telephones.  Or the right to buy fuel to run vehicles.  They have been unconstitutional and illegitimate since day one.  I couldn't find the right to issue badges anywhere either.  The whole mess should be destroyed.







_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:21:53 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		It often amazes me how we get these judges and pols claiming we need strict constitutional contructionists. They want the constitution followed to the letter...all the way up to the time their idea originalism doesn't serve their interest. Even then, far too many want to amend it to serve their narrow interests.

Most...not all, but most legal scholars will tell you that every war in which we have engaged since WWII has been unconsitutional...without a formal, congressional declaration of war. I agree with those scholars.

Watch the courts people...very closely as it is always the...courts that become the first refuse of the new tryanny. Then of course, if not inline with their goals like Bush and Co....just go right past them.

Somebody should have given this nothing of  a man...a blow job 2 years ago, so we could impeach his ass.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/21/2007 10:26:00 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:22:50 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

UH... All power not enumerated are reserved by THE PEOPLE and THE STATES. Or did you forget the 9th and 10th Amendment.

There is no "Inherent Right" It's EXPLICITLY delegated or it is RESERVED by The People.


Article II. - The Executive Branch

Section 1 - The President

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.


Those powers are enumerated in Article 2, Section 2. I wonder why you didn't quote that? Perhaps because it supports the theory that the Executive is LIMITED in scope and authority to ONLY those things enumerated?

quote:


The quote is from ... well ... me.


Next time, try to make up things in compliance with the clearly written Bill of Rights. As such, what you wrote is nonsense.

quote:



Well, since I wasn't quoting the Bill of Rights, your claim of super-knowledge and the only correct understanding is a bit of ... self-aggrandization.


Since this is a Constitutional discussion, why wouldn't you cite the Bill of Rights?

quote:


I'd suggest a little more research in Constitutional and American history.


I'd suggest a 4th grade course in reading comprehension for you. Here's a bit of information. When you can READ for yourself, you don't need other people's commentary.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 10:42:21 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		farglebargle, is correct. The problem is our politicians and the courts, as always. It all originates from the desire of the capitalist...as former federal judge and once prospective Supreme Court judge Robert Bork said in his testimony before congress..."the 10th amendment is probably the most dead-letter amendment in the constitution."

Courts had stripped the 10th amendment of it validity in most decisions using the ICC (interstate commerce clause) to vest many more powers with the federal government over the states to reduce the need for the capitalists in corrupting 'buying' 50 governments and thus need only 'influence' one...Washington.

Ironically, it is the conservatives/liberatarians who do not want this at all yet it is the Republican party that has taken advantage and have benefited the most from it.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 2/21/2007 10:46:16 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 11:37:05 AM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

I am sure they can scrape up a few billion for some extracurricular activities.



As a private citizen or corporation, try using government money allocated by Congress for item A on item B.

Enjoy the time you spend in the Big House.

Just because Monkeyboy and his clown patrol egregiously misappropriate funds does not mean it is legal for them to do so.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 12:09:36 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

UH... All power not enumerated are reserved by THE PEOPLE and THE STATES. Or did you forget the 9th and 10th Amendment.

There is no "Inherent Right" It's EXPLICITLY delegated or it is RESERVED by The People.


Article II. - The Executive Branch

Section 1 - The President

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.


Those powers are enumerated in Article 2, Section 2. I wonder why you didn't quote that? Perhaps because it supports the theory that the Executive is LIMITED in scope and authority to ONLY those things enumerated?

quote:


The quote is from ... well ... me.


Next time, try to make up things in compliance with the clearly written Bill of Rights. As such, what you wrote is nonsense.

quote:



Well, since I wasn't quoting the Bill of Rights, your claim of super-knowledge and the only correct understanding is a bit of ... self-aggrandization.


Since this is a Constitutional discussion, why wouldn't you cite the Bill of Rights?

quote:


I'd suggest a little more research in Constitutional and American history.


I'd suggest a 4th grade course in reading comprehension for you. Here's a bit of information. When you can READ for yourself, you don't need other people's commentary.


I don't guess you are going to address luckydog's comments about it being illegal and unconstitutional to buy paper, ink, etc either, are you?

He knocked your position on it's head pretty well, but it's obvious that you do not understand how he did so.

How about any of the Cabinent level offices or administrative branches of the Executive?  How about the Pentagon?  The Joint Chief's of Staff?  The existence of the Air Force?

None mentioned in the Constitution, therefore illegal, according to your argument.

FB, I don't mean this to be belittling, or insulting, but ... seriously .... go read the Federalist papers, and some Cosntitutional history.   Lots of good stuff online, if you can avoid moveon.org and similar ilk.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 12:12:40 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I don't guess you are going to address luckydog's comments about it being illegal and unconstitutional to buy paper, ink, etc either, are you?



There's that problem you have with reading comprehension again.

My immediate response to that point began with "Which in a Constitutional REPUBLIC is exactly as it should be."

Geez. I know this is moving fast for you, but TRY to keep up.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Iran Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109