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RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 12:15:37 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FB, I don't mean this to be belittling, or insulting, but ... seriously .... go read the Federalist papers, and some Cosntitutional history. Lots of good stuff online, if you can avoid moveon.org and similar ilk.

FirmKY



I'll suggest that YOU instead, spend some time reading: http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

IF you can get your head around it, you'll see what it all means.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 12:26:06 PM   
CuLane


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Article I Section 8:

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;


Between providing for the common defense and having all "necessary and proper" power to impose laws to carry out it's delegated responsibilities, congress has had the power to maintain a standing army for a couple hundred years, despite your interpretation of the Constitution.  Also, since the President hasn't made ANY military action against Iran, there's no fraud going on, as you supposed in an earlier post.

< Message edited by CuLane -- 2/21/2007 12:27:59 PM >

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 1:18:39 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuLane

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Article I Section 8:

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;


Between providing for the common defense


How is invading and occupying nations which are no threat, "Defense"?





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to CuLane)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:13:52 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The problem with many flag waving Americans is their fucked up logic.


You betray yourself with this statement ... anyone you don't agree with is a flag waver with fucked up logic.
 
I for one, think you should do more business with China. As a matter of fact, carry your ass ... and see where that takes you. Tell me, who is China's #1 trading partner right now anyway?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:19:28 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		The technical nature of today's military, forces a standing army. The founding fathers didn't know this at the time, obviously. The Constitution is a living document. It has to change with the times.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:22:23 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The technical nature of today's military, forces a standing army. The founding fathers didn't know this at the time, obviously. The Constitution is a living document. It has to change with the times.


Then Amend it. If it's IMPORTANT ENOUGH to be delegated to the Federal Government, it's important enough for an Amendment.

If it's NOT important enough for an Amendment, it's not worth delegating.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:33:27 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I don't guess you are going to address luckydog's comments about it being illegal and unconstitutional to buy paper, ink, etc either, are you?



There's that problem you have with reading comprehension again.

My immediate response to that point began with "Which in a Constitutional REPUBLIC is exactly as it should be."

Geez. I know this is moving fast for you, but TRY to keep up.


Insulting someone improves your position none whatsoever.  In fact, it simply points out a weakness in your ablity to reason.

His point was that there are implied processes and actions required in order to affect the execution of the powers given to each branch of our government.

Such as buying pencils and papers.

Such as doing those things that make up "foreign policy".

It's just that you do not desire to square the two and see the similarities, because you have an ideological disagreement with the particular foreign policy being carried out.

Instead, you rely on your own faulty interpretation of what you think Constitutional law is, rather than how it has been interpreted for a couple of centuries, and prior to it's adoption.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:36:34 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ahmadinejad: Wipe Israel off map

Ahmadinejad's later "clarification" where he relented and just said that all Jews should be moved to Europe might mean that he has softened his position of genocide.


FirmKY



Firmhand, he never said "wipe off the face of the map". No such phrase exists in Farsi. He actually said "remove this regime from the pages of time".

Interestingly, the more radical elements of the Middle East press misrepresented his statememnt (in the first instance). It served their purpose to stoke up tension with the West and Israel. Western media sources reported it without actually bothering to understand exactly what was said in Farsi - these sources included moderate Western media channels, not just those with a vested interest in painting the Iranian President as a lunatic.

Then, groups began to look into exactly what was said and Western Farsi experts (those who made the effort) agreed he said "we must remove this regime from the pages of time". Regime being the operative word.

Don't believe the Western news sources that simply reported what they were told he said, believe the Farsi speaking experts who translated his speech verbatim.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:37:21 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I don't guess you are going to address luckydog's comments about it being illegal and unconstitutional to buy paper, ink, etc either, are you?



There's that problem you have with reading comprehension again.

My immediate response to that point began with "Which in a Constitutional REPUBLIC is exactly as it should be."

Geez. I know this is moving fast for you, but TRY to keep up.


Insulting someone improves your position none whatsoever. In fact, it simply points out a weakness in your ablity to reason.

His point was that there are implied processes


There is nothing IMPLIED in the Federal Constitution. The 10th Amendment makes it clear. If it is NOT ENUMERATED, it is NOT DELEGATED. PERIOD.

Why go through all the trouble listing all those Congressional powers A1S8, when you can just wave you hand, and imply all sorts of things, as you seem to think A2S2 does.

It doesn't.

And if I seem insulting, it's because I'm tired of explaining this basic Civics class concept to fools.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:48:39 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The problem with many flag waving Americans is their fucked up logic.


You betray yourself with this statement ... anyone you don't agree with is a flag waver with fucked up logic.
 
I for one, think you should do more business with China. As a matter of fact, carry your ass ... and see where that takes you. Tell me, who is China's #1 trading partner right now anyway?


The US of course, China isn't stupid, they have are communists reinventing themselves. As Lenin said, a capitalist will sell you the rope you use to hang them with but tell me who most developing countries prefer to sell their resources to.

Oh. The fucked up logic of warmongering flag wavers has always been fucked up. They just at different times wave different flags but they are still fucked up. 

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 2/21/2007 2:52:10 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:52:43 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

There is nothing IMPLIED in the Federal Constitution. The 10th Amendment makes it clear. If it is NOT ENUMERATED, it is NOT DELEGATED. PERIOD.

Why go through all the trouble listing all those Congressional powers A1S8, when you can just wave you hand, and imply all sorts of things, as you seem to think A2S2 does.

It doesn't.

And if I seem insulting, it's because I'm tired of explaining this basic Civics class concept to fools.


1.  I guess then, that abortion should be illegal, seeing as it's never discussed in the US Constitution.  And, as a constitutional scholar, you don't allow "implied" either.

2.  Calling me a "fool" should get you at least an email, if not moderation, if Mod11 ever takes a peek in this thread.

3.  You can whine, cry, complain, insult and declare all you wish, but you certainly haven't taken the time to listen to any of the other posters, or do any research and study on your own (except maybe to look up that one link to a web copy of the Constitution). 

You ever read The Federalist Papers?  You spend any time reading the Cornell Law School link I gave you - twice?

Your ignorance is willful and it's seems to be a waste of time to continue to attempt to discuss the issue with you.

FirmKY

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:58:21 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

There is nothing IMPLIED in the Federal Constitution. The 10th Amendment makes it clear. If it is NOT ENUMERATED, it is NOT DELEGATED. PERIOD.

Why go through all the trouble listing all those Congressional powers A1S8, when you can just wave you hand, and imply all sorts of things, as you seem to think A2S2 does.

It doesn't.

And if I seem insulting, it's because I'm tired of explaining this basic Civics class concept to fools.


1. I guess then, that abortion should be illegal, seeing as it's never discussed in the US Constitution. And, as a constitutional scholar, you don't allow "implied" either.


Well, I guess if someone had a toy little brain, they wouldn't be able to get it around the idea of a State being a Sovereign Entity. Anyone who understands that, sees no problem with saying "It's not the Feds Duty, as per the 10th Amendment, to regulate personal healthcare issues." Neither Legal or Illegal at the Federal jurisdiction, it is a decision left to the Sovereign Individual or if delegated at all, to the Sovereign State.

quote:


2. Calling me a "fool" should get you at least an email, if not moderation, if Mod11 ever takes a peek in this thread.


There you go again, taking offense at a generality.

quote:


3. You can whine, cry, complain, insult and declare all you wish, but you certainly haven't taken the time to listen to any of the other posters, or do any research and study on your own (except maybe to look up that one link to a web copy of the Constitution).


Actually READING the Constitution has so many benefits. Among others, you really get an understanding of its content.

I guess for those who need the intellectual crutches, because of an inability to comprehend the Constitution on their own, the commentary sites are helpful.

Perhaps literacy tests at the polls weren't such a bad idea, considering what I've heard in this thread of people's lack of ability to read.



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/21/2007 3:01:15 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 2:58:43 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Given the historical turn of events, even Lenin might dispute the wisdom of that quote.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 3:13:14 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

1.  I guess then, that abortion should be illegal, seeing as it's never discussed in the US Constitution.  And, as a constitutional scholar, you don't allow "implied" either.



The next trick to deflect the discussion will be his attempts to bring Hitler into the debate.

As far as Abortion is concerned, the Supreme Court (this would be the top office of the Judiciary branch of the United States Government, as set out in the United States Constitution, to interpret the laws and constitutionality thereof) ruled in Roe vs. Wade that the Federal Government had no legal right to intrude itself between a licensed physician and that physician's patient.

Can we focus on the issue (Iran) at hand?  You are welcome to start a new thread somewhere else to argue about abortion or Hitler or martians or Adam Sandler.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 3:14:37 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Given the historical turn of events, even Lenin might dispute the wisdom of that quote.


Lenin said communism was an experiment that wouldn't work. However, I think what most socialists wanted at the beginning of the 20th century has been attained, certainly in Europe. Laissez faire capitalism is no more accepted in developed countries as communism is. Even the US holds dear to protectionist measures and certain standards of workers rights, even if it doesn't think all citizens deserve health cover.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 3:17:15 PM   
Sternhand4


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Farg is right, the constitution does not explicity grant the gov( any Branch of it) to buy Paper, Ink or Staples. No where does it authorize the purchase or use of telephones. Or the right to buy fuel to run vehicles. They have been unconstitutional and illegitimate since day one. I couldn't find the right to issue badges anywhere either. The whole mess should be destroyed.


Which in a Constitutional REPUBLIC is exactly as it should be.

THAT is why you live in a STATE. The FDA is a pointless waste of money.

NYS Agriculture and Markets is the way it should be.




Amusing concept.. If only all the food consumed in NY was grown/ raised here, I'd agree. but as we get food from all over this country and others, it pays to have a national standard.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 3:18:17 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Farg is right, the constitution does not explicity grant the gov( any Branch of it) to buy Paper, Ink or Staples. No where does it authorize the purchase or use of telephones. Or the right to buy fuel to run vehicles. They have been unconstitutional and illegitimate since day one. I couldn't find the right to issue badges anywhere either. The whole mess should be destroyed.


Which in a Constitutional REPUBLIC is exactly as it should be.

THAT is why you live in a STATE. The FDA is a pointless waste of money.

NYS Agriculture and Markets is the way it should be.




Amusing concept.. If only all the food consumed in NY was grown/ raised here, I'd agree. but as we get food from all over this country and others, it pays to have a national standard.


How can you trust the FDA, when they're proven liars? BUT if it's that important, then Amend the Constitution.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sternhand4)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 3:28:09 PM   
Sternhand4


Posts: 422
Joined: 3/6/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Farg is right, the constitution does not explicity grant the gov( any Branch of it) to buy Paper, Ink or Staples. No where does it authorize the purchase or use of telephones. Or the right to buy fuel to run vehicles. They have been unconstitutional and illegitimate since day one. I couldn't find the right to issue badges anywhere either. The whole mess should be destroyed.


Which in a Constitutional REPUBLIC is exactly as it should be.

THAT is why you live in a STATE. The FDA is a pointless waste of money.

NYS Agriculture and Markets is the way it should be.




Amusing concept.. If only all the food consumed in NY was grown/ raised here, I'd agree. but as we get food from all over this country and others, it pays to have a national standard.


How can you trust the FDA, when they're proven liars? BUT if it's that important, then Amend the Constitution.


Could you cite a reference where the FDA has lied to the public?
Maybe when they get off the black helicopters from the John Birch society meetings perhaps

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 4:33:22 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Medical-Marijuana.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Montel Williams will disagree about the FDA's allegation that Marijuana has no medical uses...

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2006/NEW01362.html

FDA concurred because marijuana met the three criteria for placement in Schedule I under 21 U.S.C. 812(b)(1) (e.g., marijuana has a high potential for abuse, has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States, and has a lack of accepted safety for use under medical supervision).

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/21/2007 4:35:42 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sternhand4)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Iran - 2/21/2007 5:08:51 PM   
Sternhand4


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Joined: 3/6/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Medical-Marijuana.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Montel Williams will disagree about the FDA's allegation that Marijuana has no medical uses...

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2006/NEW01362.html

FDA concurred because marijuana met the three criteria for placement in Schedule I under 21 U.S.C. 812(b)(1) (e.g., marijuana has a high potential for abuse, has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States, and has a lack of accepted safety for use under medical supervision).


I said to myself  a while back that you had to be high when writing some of your posts, and low and behold...

Really, Montel Williams, whats next the Springer family counciling sessions.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 80
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