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RE: Straight up questions - 2/20/2007 9:48:28 PM   
porthuronsub


Posts: 339
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline 		That is good.  I tend to view my relationship with my Mistress like I would any other, you have to have communication.  My training has been put on hold due to her having a pretty serious illness and I would like to gain more insight on the lifestyle so that I can be the best she has ever had once she is well.  She seems to like me being open in conversation.  You seem to confirm that it is a good thing.

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Straight up questions - 2/21/2007 6:31:58 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissEnchantress

While I appreciate ritualistic questions and answers, sometimes I ask a straight up question and get a ritualized answer.

For example, I might ask My sub, 'Do you like this'. And I get 'If you like it Mistress'.

What I really want to know is if _they_ like it or not. Simple. Fact finding. If they don't like it, it can be used as a punishment, if they do it can be used as a reward.

How do you get straight answers out of submissives when you really want to gather facts? And question two, why do some subs tend to think that a Mistress is submissive for asking if he likes something - when all you're doing is gathering facts and .... information is power?!


You explain that you want details, in fact, you order details.

If they can't then follow the order to give you real details then are they being obedient?

The trick to helping the sub learn that asking questions and giving information is not reversing the authority or power dynamic is to never do what they desire at that time and to never do things in the way they described. Use the information to add to what you do in the way that you want.

Then when you do include a fetish or an activity or a word or two that they really like it seems like you've read their minds. It really does make the eyes light up because in my experience if a few days have passed between my getting the information and using any of it, the sub tends to forget they gave you that information or they are very surprised when you use any of it.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to MissEnchantress)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Straight up questions - 2/21/2007 7:14:10 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porthuronsub

I must have this whole thing screwed up.  If my Mistress asks me a question I answer it, plain and simple.  You have to have open communication to have a strong relationship.  I feel that if she asks me something there has to be a reason so answer it truthfully.  I seldom say something like what the OP quoted.  I feel it is kind of lame.  Do you Mistresses really like a "yes" sub?  Or one with a mind?


One with a mind, please:)

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to porthuronsub)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Straight up questions - 2/21/2007 7:52:28 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
The trick to helping the sub learn that asking questions and giving information is not reversing the authority or power dynamic is to never do what they desire at that time and to never do things in the way they described. Use the information to add to what you do in the way that you want.

That rubs me the wrong way- it's still letting what they want take control, and it's equating dominance with "no."

I haven't had problems with giving them what they want- in fact I have found it reinforces their confidence to be open about it.  If I ask what they want for dinner, and they happen to want exactly what I want, what does it serve to go to a place neither of us really wants?

Not that I say yes just to say yes either.  If I honestly don't want it, or don't care, then it doesn't happen either.  I just don't like the idea of basing my decision to prove that the authority dynamic is still in place. 

I'd also worry about someone picking up on this motivation and thinking that either a) There IS an issue with the authority dynamic, or else why would they have to prove it? b) there's less motivation there since they know it's going to incur a no reaction.

quote:

Then when you do include a fetish or an activity or a word or two that they really like it seems like you've read their minds. It really does make the eyes light up because in my experience if a few days have passed between my getting the information and using any of it, the sub tends to forget they gave you that information or they are very surprised when you use any of it.

I personally have not had a problem with this- my partner often calls me his "reader" 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Straight up questions - 2/21/2007 8:58:10 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
The trick to helping the sub learn that asking questions and giving information is not reversing the authority or power dynamic is to never do what they desire at that time and to never do things in the way they described. Use the information to add to what you do in the way that you want.

That rubs me the wrong way- it's still letting what they want take control, and it's equating dominance with "no."

I haven't had problems with giving them what they want- in fact I have found it reinforces their confidence to be open about it. If I ask what they want for dinner, and they happen to want exactly what I want, what does it serve to go to a place neither of us really wants?

Not that I say yes just to say yes either. If I honestly don't want it, or don't care, then it doesn't happen either. I just don't like the idea of basing my decision to prove that the authority dynamic is still in place.

I'd also worry about someone picking up on this motivation and thinking that either a) There IS an issue with the authority dynamic, or else why would they have to prove it? b) there's less motivation there since they know it's going to incur a no reaction.


I'm not talking about doing this to excert your authority or power, I'm talking about gathering information and using it when you want and how you want. Maybe I just do this naturally. I'm not a top, I'm not going to follow a script, I'm going to use the information when I want and how I want. Everyone I've been with loves the fact that their interests and desire show up when they aren't expecting them and in ways they didn't imagine.

In other words, if your partner is worried about topping from the bottom but you want or need information from them, think about how and when you will use that information. If you do it immediately I really think it may feel likethey have topped from the bottom.

quote:

Then when you do include a fetish or an activity or a word or two that they really like it seems like you've read their minds. It really does make the eyes light up because in my experience if a few days have passed between my getting the information and using any of it, the sub tends to forget they gave you that information or they are very surprised when you use any of it.

I personally have not had a problem with this- my partner often calls me his "reader"


And that great.

For a lot of bottoms and sub though they feel bad about telling a dominant what they want because it feels like they are controlling things. So, don't make the information they've shared an immediately concern, think about it and use it later on in some why that works well for you. It will seem more natural to you, I think, and it will seem more like it's coming from you than from them.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Straight up questions - 2/21/2007 9:41:43 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the clarification TammyJo, I do agree that it can be a good method to use to ease the tension and maintain the dynamic.  I had thought you were saying you should just it a rule to never act immediately on their preferences just to prove a point of dominance.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Straight up questions - 2/21/2007 9:56:41 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, I have a variation on this theme, and all of you articulate, intelligent Dommes to run it by:

I don't have a problem getting a "real" answer from my girl (as opposed to a ritual answer.)  Our dynamic isn't wrapped up in the "what ever you wish, Sir" ritualized answer, nor is she a "Yes-sub" (I LOVE that expression). 

But sometimes I'm frustrated by not getting ANY answer.  Often I'll ask a question that is to me innocuous:  "Red Salsa or Green?"   "What do you feel like for dinner?"  "Where should we go this afternoon?"  "Paper or Plastic?"    And I will NOT get an answer.  She says (we've talked about it...hell we talk about everything, and tell me you haven't been there) that she has trouble answering...that even in plain vanilla couple mode, she is in enough headspace that decision-making has left the building.  I say I just want an answer, and while I'm perfectly comfortable making the decision, I wanted her input.

Do I just make the decisions, and if the salsa verde makes her a bit queasy, she lives with it?  Or do I stop and demand a choice?   What's your thought?

E.


_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Straight up questions - 2/22/2007 4:04:31 AM   
MsKatHouston


Posts: 1909
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

Can a Mistress here answer my related question?  Do you like "yes" subs/slaves or ones with a mind that can communicate?


Subs with a mind, thus the question about how to deal with the yes subs methinks.  Many subs who act as yes subs I think believe that is expected and with a little communication will stop doing it. 

quote:

Do I just make the decisions, and if the salsa verde makes her a bit queasy, she lives with it?  Or do I stop and demand a choice?   What's your thought?


I would do a combination.  Encourage a response then but if it is difficult, don't push it.  Perhaps make the choice you know she will not like and then when she's not happy, she'll eventually learn that now is the time to speak up.  Tell her OK you get green salsa.  Wait.  Would you like green salsa?  No?  What would you like?


_____________________________

-Kat

~If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning~

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Straight up questions - 2/22/2007 4:16:32 AM   
myobedience


Posts: 472
Joined: 1/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissEnchantress

While I appreciate ritualistic questions and answers, sometimes I ask a straight up question and get a ritualized answer.

For example, I might ask My sub, 'Do you like this'.  And I get 'If you like it Mistress'.

What I really want to know is if _they_ like it or not.  Simple.  Fact finding.  If they don't like it, it can be used as a punishment, if they do it can be used as a reward.

How do you get straight answers out of submissives when you really want to gather facts?  And question two, why do some subs tend to think that a Mistress is submissive for asking if he likes something - when all you're doing is gathering facts and .... information is power?!


While i prefer not to serve a female first, my preference is a male... i believe your question pertains to any sub, any dom/me.
 
i do understand the like = reward, dislike or no = punishment and i do appreciate information is control and power.
 
But my first reaction is, sometimes i have responded "wahtever pleases you" only because i didnt want to displease.  But i have gotten wiser over the years and do reply from my heart and mind, my opinion IS worth something as a strong submissive.
 
When i have been a weak submissive, it had been a long walk for me to say something displeasing.  As i gain a sense of strength, i find myself respectfully replying to the direct question.  It has also helped in the selection process, when meeting someone new.  Lessons learned are not to be repeated unless i am a fool.
 
i have heard female and male, all titles, respond the same to your 2nd question.  Maybe it is something we are conditioned too?  It definately is NOT true, but to some it is. 

_____________________________

With grace and gratitude, I am owned.
A Man who always seeks to be the best He can be for you is the only Man truly worthy of being called Master.

(in reply to MissEnchantress)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Straight up questions - 2/22/2007 7:04:00 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

Ok, I have a variation on this theme, and all of you articulate, intelligent Dommes to run it by:

I don't have a problem getting a "real" answer from my girl (as opposed to a ritual answer.) Our dynamic isn't wrapped up in the "what ever you wish, Sir" ritualized answer, nor is she a "Yes-sub" (I LOVE that expression).

But sometimes I'm frustrated by not getting ANY answer. Often I'll ask a question that is to me innocuous: "Red Salsa or Green?" "What do you feel like for dinner?" "Where should we go this afternoon?" "Paper or Plastic?" And I will NOT get an answer. She says (we've talked about it...hell we talk about everything, and tell me you haven't been there) that she has trouble answering...that even in plain vanilla couple mode, she is in enough headspace that decision-making has left the building. I say I just want an answer, and while I'm perfectly comfortable making the decision, I wanted her input.

Do I just make the decisions, and if the salsa verde makes her a bit queasy, she lives with it? Or do I stop and demand a choice? What's your thought?

E.



I think this is a common problem perhaps increased by Ds for some people.

I had to train myself to not ask these sorts of questions unless there is a reason for me to know. For example, I've had a hard day and I just don't feel like making the decision -- I can just always say "you're making dinner, Foxboy" too.

Offering two choices is good, more than that seem to overwhelm some people. Instead of asking though, you could always set out the choices and let each person take what they wish.

If the question is more open ended, consider limiting it in some fashion. "I'm torn between bowling and golfing today. Do you have a preference?" Then be prepared for a "no" answer and a decision to be made by you.

If it doesn't feel fakey to you, you can always make an assignment. "This weekend I want you to plan what we are going to do on Saturday between 1 and 4pm." Some people need more time to make decisions and you can make this a service that you wish to be done for you by your sub/slave.

You have to experiment and see what works best for you and for you partner.

I'm certainly not prefect with it but I am much better now that I've trained myself to think how someone else might hear the questions or see the choices.

I think though part of our responsibilities as the dominant is to make choices and to help give our sub/slave clear guidelines when we want they to make the choice. If we are lucky or skilled maybe we get someone who doesn't have a problem answering these questions and yet supports the power or authority dynamic.

Fox has gotten much better at answering my questions now, even about mundane things.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Straight up questions - 2/22/2007 11:09:06 AM   
MissEnchantress


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/4/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you all for the wonderful advice.  Yes I like subs with a mind.  And I agree with setting some time aside to teach a sub to make his/her own decisions.  I'll keep reading and get educated!

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Straight up questions - 2/22/2007 12:08:28 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956
Do I just make the decisions, and if the salsa verde makes her a bit queasy, she lives with it?  Or do I stop and demand a choice?   What's your thought?

E.

Demand a choice.  Explain in your talks that this is part of her service, that you require her to be observant and aware and communicative with you on ALL things, and even can go so far as to punish if she refuses to adapt her behavior.

I'll also restate my method of forcing them to pronounce what they want at times.  I don't ask "What do you want?"  I order them to tell me what they want.  Takes patience, but gets results.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Straight up questions - 2/23/2007 8:55:12 AM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

I don't have a problem getting a "real" answer from my girl (as opposed to a ritual answer.)  Our dynamic isn't wrapped up in the "what ever you wish, Sir" ritualized answer, nor is she a "Yes-sub" (I LOVE that expression). 

But sometimes I'm frustrated by not getting ANY answer.  Often I'll ask a question that is to me innocuous:  "Red Salsa or Green?"   "What do you feel like for dinner?"  "Where should we go this afternoon?"  "Paper or Plastic?"    And I will NOT get an answer.  She says (we've talked about it...hell we talk about everything, and tell me you haven't been there) that she has trouble answering...that even in plain vanilla couple mode, she is in enough headspace that decision-making has left the building.  I say I just want an answer, and while I'm perfectly comfortable making the decision, I wanted her input.

Do I just make the decisions, and if the salsa verde makes her a bit queasy, she lives with it?  Or do I stop and demand a choice?   What's your thought?


As the person in question, I can speak to this a bit.  It's not a matter of red vs. green salsa (red - it's milder) or paper/plastic (paper - I need the bags for recycling).  Either/or choices are rarely ever an issue.  "Where should we go this afternoon?" is a bit more problematic.

I'm perfectly capable of making decisions - I, in fact, do all the time as do all autonomous adults. Tammyjo's suggestions are very helpful, as it's the vague open-ended questions that throw me into silence.  I need some parameters, some limiters to help me pare down options. In our situation, we live over an hour apart.  Being asked to plan an afternoon instantly sets my mind going:  how much time will we have together, more public or private, should we eat while we're out, how close to home/your office would you like to stay (so he can get home in less time)? I don't know the surrounding Chicago suburbs very well and am out of my element -- I don't know what I'm doing in planning.  I feel incompetent - like there are too many choices that could be wrong and without enough information to make a good choice, I become paralyzed into inaction. Just a little bit of structure is an enormous help.

I'm pretty direct when asked to choose red over white wine, sushi over mediterranian, or on which side of the border we should meet.  It's the vague questions that throw me.  And while Tammyjo is right - the Ds dynamic exacerbates the problem - this is something I've dealt with all my life. 

As for this suggestion:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Demand a choice.  Explain in your talks that this is part of her service, that you require her to be observant and aware and communicative with you on ALL things, and even can go so far as to punish if she refuses to adapt her behavior.

I'll also restate my method of forcing them to pronounce what they want at times.  I don't ask "What do you want?"  I order them to tell me what they want.  Takes patience, but gets results.


I'm sure this might work for someone.  Sir is, of course, free to try "forcing me to pronounce what I want" and subsequently punish me for not adapting.  Let's see how far it goes in actually bringing on the positive changes he wants. 

~Holly


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I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to Emperor1956)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Straight up questions - 2/23/2007 2:14:49 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I can sympathize Holly, and trust me my partner (who could be the poster boy for not being comfortable making decisions) also sympathizes.

You just need to learn how to transfer those skills over and realize that lack of boundaries just means there are a bunch of smaller choices for you to make bundled into one choice.  Tackle each choice at once and you'll get to your answer.  Eventually you'll be practiced enough in this to speed through it and cut straight to the point. 

I also don't see a problem with it being a dialogue as long as you aren't avoiding the question- sometimes we really do need more info from the other person before we can make a choice.  And sometimes you'll just have to take that leap of trust and say "it doesn't matter that I don't know all the variables, I'll just let go and say what I want."

I'll also say that my family helped me with this because we're so sarcastic that when you ask someone "Where do you want to go?" you'd very often tend to get an answer like "The Bahamas" or "To Tahiti."  It's whimsical fun and lets the other person know that the question they asked might not really get them the answer they want.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Straight up questions - 2/24/2007 7:07:23 AM   
mam


Posts: 54
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I like a sub who can tell me what he likes, needs or desires. It increases my enjoyment and theirs, sometimes. 

mam

(in reply to porthuronsub)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Straight up questions - 2/24/2007 9:19:34 AM   
beltainefaerie


Posts: 610
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline 		As a Mistress, I tend to ask really specific questions and haven't really had problems getting answers.  My brat and I communicate well, if a bit playfully snarky.  However, since "brat" is her actual role and place, she is expected to have opinions and answer questions and generally be a bit willful, so it would be confusing to get any sort of "whatever pleases you, Mistress" from her. 

As a sub, it depends for me whether my Master is asking something related to my submission or not.  If he is asking what kind of salsa I want and I said "Whatever pleases you" I am pretty sure my mouth would be on fire for days.  He loves spicy things that I could not consume without great pain. If that was the point, okay, but then he wouldn't have asked me.  However, as it relates to many things, I would answer in a ritual-sounding way, but there are subtle word choice differences and not so subtle tone/body language differences that make it very clear what my preferences are.  Whether my Master actually chooses to do anything about my preferences or whether he was just seeking information regarding how I would feel about his choice, really doesn't matter.  For example, I might say "As pleases you, Master" in a quick tone with open body language and possibly even a smile if I am excited about the choice.  The same phrase could indicate that I did not really like that choice if I had "big eyes", which is apparently a sort of scared deer-in-the-heaadlights look I get sometimes. I also tend toward quieter speach when I don't like the choice.  Usually, however I would say, "Only to please you, Master" to indicate that the choice scares me or I will dislike it, but I aim to please.  He reads me very well, so this works for us.

(in reply to mam)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Straight up questions - 2/24/2007 10:07:50 AM   
ToServeIsToLive


Posts: 222
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		When I was with someone, it would drive me NUTS sometimes to be insistantly asked what I wanted to do at a given moment.  I'm a laid back person if left to my own devices and generally what I really want to do is to do what they wanted to do.  Whether it be just watching some TV or a full blown scene I get a lot out of just being around people enjoying themselves.  A lot of what interests me means nothing without an interested partner to back it up so it's very hard to think of whether I like something or not because if someone pursues something only because I'm interested in it and they aren't really interested (doing it for my sake) then in the end I'm not really interested in it.  Then again there are of course things I'm truely like on my own that transend all of this so it's kind of complicated I think (have to think about this more).

(in reply to beltainefaerie)
Profile   Post #: 37
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