RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (Full Version)

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Stephann -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/23/2007 2:03:31 PM)

Rosa,

herein lies the trouble.  First we start 'weeding out' sexual offenders.  They aren't being driven from their homes with pretty pink letters asking them nicely to leave.  Their cars are being destroyed, their homes set on fire, they are being shot at in the street.  Normally silly things like law would prevent destruction of private property, arson, and murder on a whole scale basis, but when we start singling out groups of individuals to attack, you pave the way for other groups; communists, homosexuals, atheists, and blacks have all been down this road as well.  How long until we start stoning people for speeding, or chopping the hands off children who steal gum?  Sounds ridiculous, but the moment you start applying the law to 'some' and not 'others' you create a society that looks just like Iraq has today.

Stephan




RosaB -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/23/2007 2:18:52 PM)

Hello Stephan,

My original response was errased, server error.  grrrrrrr.

These kinds of list have been around for at least a decade and I haven't seen mass attacks on preditors as yet.  I'll just ask if you have an alternative solution for parents to protect their children from preditors in the neighborhood? 




Sinergy -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/23/2007 3:16:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Rosa,

herein lies the trouble.  First we start 'weeding out' sexual offenders.  They aren't being driven from their homes with pretty pink letters asking them nicely to leave.  Their cars are being destroyed, their homes set on fire, they are being shot at in the street.  Normally silly things like law would prevent destruction of private property, arson, and murder on a whole scale basis, but when we start singling out groups of individuals to attack, you pave the way for other groups; communists, homosexuals, atheists, and blacks have all been down this road as well.  How long until we start stoning people for speeding, or chopping the hands off children who steal gum?  Sounds ridiculous, but the moment you start applying the law to 'some' and not 'others' you create a society that looks just like Iraq has today.

Stephan


 
While I agree wholeheartedly with your comments, Stephann, the problem with yout logic is that pedophilia as a crime is dissimilar to crimes against property.
 
A sexual predator generally cannot be rehabilitated.  Cannot be scared away from molesting children with the fear of being put into general population if they are caught.  A better approach to how to deal with them would come from viewing them not as a criminal per se but as an individual who would be a danger to either themselves or others if released.
 
I might consider it a criminal offense for the first offense.  Juries do make mistakes.  People are wrongly convicted.
 
But as far as recidivists are concerned, if it were up to me I would give them the opportunity to either agree to mandatory castration as a condition of release, or 3 hots and a cot behind bars for the rest of their lives in order to protect the general public.
 
Sinergy




pahunkboy -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/23/2007 3:36:37 PM)

Still- it boils down to sloppy legislation.

Jenn introd me to one of her friend of a friend. welll he had been in prison 8 years- the girl was underaged he told us. well- lo and behold- he is back in jail.  it wasnt a girl that was almost 18. it was prepuberty boys- children.

He had the right act. Said all teh right thinks - seemed yuppy and classy.

PA wont publish the adress. but wil teh names.


sidenote:

California got all upset- as some gay guys were checking the site- for the purpose of getting layed with a highly sex charged male. LMFAO!   SO nowwwwwwww it is "illegal"-   I hope the [non offenders] got a ton of great sex out of it!!!!!!





Stephann -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/23/2007 9:01:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

While I agree wholeheartedly with your comments, Stephann, the problem with yout logic is that pedophilia as a crime is dissimilar to crimes against property.
 
A sexual predator generally cannot be rehabilitated.  Cannot be scared away from molesting children with the fear of being put into general population if they are caught.  A better approach to how to deal with them would come from viewing them not as a criminal per se but as an individual who would be a danger to either themselves or others if released.
 
I might consider it a criminal offense for the first offense.  Juries do make mistakes.  People are wrongly convicted.
 
But as far as recidivists are concerned, if it were up to me I would give them the opportunity to either agree to mandatory castration as a condition of release, or 3 hots and a cot behind bars for the rest of their lives in order to protect the general public.
 
Sinergy


Thanks for the response.  I don't agree that they cannot be rehabilitated.  I do not agree that they even require rehabilitation, in order to live productive and generally 'normal' lives.  The course we are currently taking will leave a very blurry, almost non-existent line between 'criminal' and 'potential criminal.'  If we lock a man away, not because he has committed a crime, but because he has the potential to commit a crime, there is no fundamental distinction involved with requiring mandatory questionnaires and lie detector tests to identify potential criminals, and to incarcerate them to prevent the possibility of their criminal actions.

I'm quite aware that I am mostly yelling into the wind here (not against you, personally, but in general terms of this discussion.)   I highlighted your term 'sexual predator' because it's an illustration of a fundamental point of view; there is no legal or psychological usage of this term.  It's a slang term, the same as one might call another person a 'killer.'  Unlike a murderer who must kill, or attempt to kill overtly, innuendo of sexual perversion (especially involving minors) leaves a lifelong taint.  In using such terms, we dehumanitize these individuals, reducing them to a sub-human status, and thus enabling our own socially acceptable sadistic tendencies to run free.  Murder is wrong, except when the 'victim' is a child molester.  Even if your assertion that their crimes have no similarity to other types of crime, applying different rules to different groups of people opens the door for horrible abuse of those rules.  Essentially, to make sexual predator crimes a distinct class, it would require professionals capable of making such determinations (i.e. psychologists) and in identifying the cause to be an illness, the predator would assume a mentally ill status (quite possibly well deserved, mind you) and no longer held responsible for their actions by society.

I advocate the threat of castration as a condition of parole, should they repeat their offenses for such offenders; understanding that castration won't always inhibit a pedophile's drives, but it would seem a more effective deterrent towards the crime than, say, execution.  For men who commit violent rape, I think the state should have the authority to order chemical castration (for the purposes of having legal children upon release from jail, I don't see any reason they couldn't donate sperm first; this should sooth the ACLU a bit.)   I think like capital punishment, it wouldn't always be an appropriate punishment; but again, I think it would be a strong deterrent.  Again, I think the real answer isn't to keep a large percentage of America's young men in jail; I think the answer is putting those men to work, giving those men something to lose, and giving them a great deal of real incentive not to fail.

Stephan




Sinergy -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/23/2007 9:06:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

I"LL say this if some lowlife would molest one of my children then GOD himself couldn't save them..WE are just too damm soft one them...BH


A bit of advice, BH.

This qualifies as premeditation.

Best to just smile and speak in vague hypotheticals about things which random, unidentified individuals might do.

Sinergy




MistressDoMe -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/23/2007 10:49:53 PM)

Great posts GeekyGirl, people off forget that prison is supposed to be a form of punishment.
Rehabilitation is nice if you can do it, but prison is for punishment and containment usually.




Sinergy -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 6:35:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I think like capital punishment, it wouldn't always be an appropriate punishment; but again, I think it would be a strong deterrent. 



From my understanding, capital punishment doesnt really work as a disincentive.  States in the US which have capital punishment generally have higher rates of violent crime than those which dont.

This is especially for pedophiles.  The biological imperative to satisfy their sexual urges is too deeply entrenched in their psyche.  I say we should stop treating them as criminals and start treating them as suffering from an incurable mental illness.

Unless they want to get fixed like a cat.

Sinergy




adaddysgirl -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 5:03:12 PM)

To the OP, i haven't had the chance to read this entire thread but i want to say thanks for the link.  Gawd.....i found one 2 blocks down from me  [:'(]   
 
But this is quite a tool and i will pass it on to my family and friends.  Thanks again.
 
Daddysgirl




BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 5:08:48 PM)

I stand or fall by my statement...BH




VeryMercurial -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 5:19:54 PM)

Isn't it great to be able to post your opinion and just move on?




Sinergy -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 5:22:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

If we lock a man away, not because he has committed a crime, but because he has the potential to commit a crime, there is no fundamental distinction involved with requiring mandatory questionnaires and lie detector tests to identify potential criminals, and to incarcerate them to prevent the possibility of their criminal actions.



I generally agree with what you posted, but people who are deemed a threat to society can be incarcerated in the Loony Bin for the safety of everybody else.  My point was that pedophilia should be reclassified from a criminal offense to a psychiatric disorder if the person is convicted of the same crime after release.

While I understand you think there is the possibility for rehabilitation, statistics do not support that opinion.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#recidivism

On a related note, if 67.5 are rearrested for sex crimes.  How many get away with sex crimes without being rearrested?

Sinergy




Stephann -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 6:33:58 PM)

Just a couple brief thoughts; statistics do not show rehabilitation is not effective.  Statistics show that we are not effectively rehabilitating.  This thread demonstrates our lack of commitment to rehabilitation.  The distinction seems minor, but one could look at Leonardo DaVinci's flying machines, and see (now) why they were not effective.  That didn't make human flight impossible.

The statistics you present also do not indicate how many are arrested and convicted, solely upon the grounds that they abused before, thus they 'must have' abused again.

Complicated problems never have simple solutions.

Warm regards,

Stephan  






farglebargle -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 7:34:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I think like capital punishment, it wouldn't always be an appropriate punishment; but again, I think it would be a strong deterrent.



From my understanding, capital punishment doesnt really work as a disincentive.



To the person executed it sure does! ZERO Recidivism!






Sinergy -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 8:42:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I think like capital punishment, it wouldn't always be an appropriate punishment; but again, I think it would be a strong deterrent.



From my understanding, capital punishment doesnt really work as a disincentive.



To the person executed it sure does! ZERO Recidivism!





True.

Costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Not sure whether it costs more to stick them in Supermax and forgot about them though.

Sinergy




Lucius -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/24/2007 11:53:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you haven't raised your children well enough to handle firearms responsibly, have you raised them at all?

If firearms are such a bad idea, why does every police officer carry one?

And 911's a joke.




I completely agree with this. As the daughter of two cops, I grew up with guns on the coffee table and kitchen counter from the time I was about 8. I knew how to shoot them and I knew to respect them and I knew to never EVER touch them without permission. Kids have grown up with guns for hundreds of years...they've only started shooting each other on a regular basis in the last 20yrs of so, when parents have decided that teaching responsiblity and giving their kids proper supervision wasn't terribly important.



May I quote you on this?

I know, I just did. I mean, quote you elsewhere?

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary




Level -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/25/2007 3:04:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Rosa,

herein lies the trouble.  First we start 'weeding out' sexual offenders.  They aren't being driven from their homes with pretty pink letters asking them nicely to leave.  Their cars are being destroyed, their homes set on fire, they are being shot at in the street.  Normally silly things like law would prevent destruction of private property, arson, and murder on a whole scale basis, but when we start singling out groups of individuals to attack, you pave the way for other groups; communists, homosexuals, atheists, and blacks have all been down this road as well.  How long until we start stoning people for speeding, or chopping the hands off children who steal gum?  Sounds ridiculous, but the moment you start applying the law to 'some' and not 'others' you create a society that looks just like Iraq has today.

Stephan


 
While I agree wholeheartedly with your comments, Stephann, the problem with yout logic is that pedophilia as a crime is dissimilar to crimes against property.
 
A sexual predator generally cannot be rehabilitated.  Cannot be scared away from molesting children with the fear of being put into general population if they are caught.  A better approach to how to deal with them would come from viewing them not as a criminal per se but as an individual who would be a danger to either themselves or others if released.
 
I might consider it a criminal offense for the first offense.  Juries do make mistakes.  People are wrongly convicted.
 
But as far as recidivists are concerned, if it were up to me I would give them the opportunity to either agree to mandatory castration as a condition of release, or 3 hots and a cot behind bars for the rest of their lives in order to protect the general public.
 
Sinergy



I would only add that the option of castration be taken off the table; re-offend, and automatic life sentence.




Stephann -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/25/2007 7:59:15 AM)

Level,

The idea I was putting forward in terms of castration was intended as a deterrent; especially within the context of 100% monitoring of these individuals, so that every moment they start considering inappropriate interaction with a minor, the little alarm bell in their head (or even a buzzer strapped to their leg) warns them that if they do this, they lose their balls.  Do you suppose they would be so quick to take advantage of a child, if they knew that 24 hours a day, a sniper rifle was aimed at their nuts?

Sinergy,

My statements earlier show that it's cheaper to keep them in supermax.

Something else we don't consider, is that capital cases are not as easily won.  It isn't because the facts are any less clear; prosecutors don't attempt to try capital cases in the first place, if they do not have overwhelming evidence to the fact.  The thing is, a jury knows - without a question - that if they convict this man, he will die.  Of the 12 people in that box, only one has to think to themself "guilty or not, do I really want to pull the switch and make him fry?"  One in twelve can hang the jury; only one needs to be bought off by a wealthy defendant; only one needs to feel 'too weak' to declare him guilty, crying and sobbing at the brutality they have just heard over the course of weeks in a trial.

Capital cases are harder to win, but cost no less to pursue (hundreds of thousands of dollars, each) whether they win or lose.  Better off applying a legal standard that is more realistic.  Better yet, as I've been advocating, applying a form of punishment (say, working at the Post Office as a mail sorter 12 hours a day, or sorting junk at a recycling center) where the person is fulfilling some useful role to society, while still being monitored.  We have the technology and the capacity to simply do better, for next to nothing.

Worth a thought, though, that there is a lot of people who make a great deal of money building and staffing prisons.  Don't you suppose that, as a profitible enterprise for them, it would seem 'wasteful' and 'soft' to resort to such innovations?

Stephan




Sinergy -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/25/2007 9:00:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

The idea I was putting forward in terms of castration was intended as a deterrent;
 

 
I did not make any comment about the deterrent value of castration.
 
I simply pointed out the recidivism rates and unlikelihood of rehabilitation for sex offenders, with the exception being those who are castrated.
 
Without being castrated, sex offenders are (in most, not all instances) a danger to themselves or others.
 
Sinergy




GeekyGirl -> RE: Keepin'It Real - Locate Offenders in your area! (2/25/2007 9:25:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucius

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

If you haven't raised your children well enough to handle firearms responsibly, have you raised them at all?

If firearms are such a bad idea, why does every police officer carry one?

And 911's a joke.




I completely agree with this. As the daughter of two cops, I grew up with guns on the coffee table and kitchen counter from the time I was about 8. I knew how to shoot them and I knew to respect them and I knew to never EVER touch them without permission. Kids have grown up with guns for hundreds of years...they've only started shooting each other on a regular basis in the last 20yrs of so, when parents have decided that teaching responsiblity and giving their kids proper supervision wasn't terribly important.



May I quote you on this?

I know, I just did. I mean, quote you elsewhere?

Lucius Alexander

House of the Palindromedary



LOL, of course you may [:)]




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