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RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 11:22:17 AM

jadein

Posts: 37
Joined: 2/12/2007
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Well Dominic although I agree you should gear punishments towards things that submissives don't like ...

What I don't agree with is the making fun of the drama, teasing or what not. I am a mother of two children and that is NOT how I would deal with tantrums or attention seeking behaviors ... because those can present themselves in different fashions depending on the situation. I would do a combination of what you and Michael said ... show that I'm completly not moved by the behavior by ignoring the BEHAVIOR ... that doesn't mean you don't address things. I know it's different because we are speaking of children and not adults, but the concept is still the same.

Lets say for example I'm whinning about something that's irratating me but my husband isn't really paying attention so I then throw a pillow for example, which then bounces and hits the lamp and makes a mess. I giggle because now my husbands looking at me. If the roles were reversed and it was me who the pillow thrown at me for some reason I wouldn't respond in any emotional way at all. Instead I'd look and say "You need to pick that up." Period finish the end. I would continue addressing the ACT in that manner and ignoring the behavior untill said person realized Ok this is not working.

I don't know if any of this is making sense but to me ... making fun of or teasing when a child or ANYONE is Acting out is NOT a good way to address the situation. You can make the person feel alienated and honestly a tad bit abused depending on thier personal history and psychological background.

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 21

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 11:26:14 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
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yes, i crave every minute of Daddy's attention however that wouldn't cause me to become a brat. yet, i like getting my way (it stems from being an only child for most of my life) and when i want something, i'm determined to get it even if Daddy doesn't approve. i will assert myself in the worse way overstepping His title in my life and pushing His buttons until He quietly walks away without saying anything. just another minor something i need to work on since i like having some control though remembering Daddy is also Dom too. the last time this happened, it took me a couple of hours to realize why He stopped talking to me and another couple of hours of Him accepting my apologies for my bad behavior.

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RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 11:37:19 AM

agirl

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Have you been watching Super Nanny?.....lol

You're quite right, of course......We all wish for attention and learned behaviour can instill negative ways of trying to get it.

Geekygirl gave an all too common example of why people begin to feel neglected and unimportant. Few people can maintain being a *bright little star* when they are having to work disproportionately hard to be seen.

I don't think it's that people are like children, I think it's that children are like people.

agirl

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 23

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 12:26:22 PM

chrissyslave

Posts: 95
Joined: 1/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Submissives and people in general are a lot like children. Submissives require attention and if the only way they get that attention is a negative reinforcement, you are going to spend a lot of time working on punishment because they are going to spend a lot of time being bad.

If we use the "child-parent" analogy brought up already, don't we recognize that a parent giving punishment to a child is a bit different from giving "discipline" to a child? And for different types of "bad" versus "incorrect" behavior? Do you as a Dom/Master differentiate between the two issues and provided different responses? Is your thinking regarding giving "punishment" to unwanted behavior versus different from "refined discipline" and therefore more adjusted to the issue at hand?

Besides confusing the terms "punishment" with "discipline," we have the two separate meaning of discipline to consider with one being an *adminsitrating/recieving an unpleasant act* and the other the condition of *self-control.* We all want discipline in our lives, tops or bottoms, but we'd rather not have to be disciplined to achieve that. In fact an undisciplined Dom/Master might be creating the situation where their sub/slave acts out to get more attention, so the giving of "punishment" might be instead be a need for "discipline" and might actually be to the wrong party! And finally a twister here, how can we as sub/slaves constructively communicate our needs/desires to our Dom/Masters about our attention needs instead of acting out to get it?

If we as sub/slaves don't know how to communicate our needs effectively then "acting out" is the one option that does achieve this but in a negative way. I appreciate those sub/slaves already responding that said they didn't know why at first they were acting out but now know it was for getting more attention, so "awareness" of our needs is key to first achieve, however it might be the knowledgeable Dom/Master who spots the underlying cause first.

But if we have well communicated it and still not achieved a satisfactory level of attention, either way, then perhaps it was not the best match-up for the relationship in the first place. But then that also goes for the cases where "discipline" as "self control" is insufficient and not corrected enough even after physical/mental discipline is provided. So when do you as a dom/master draw the line in your relationships with either case (acting out verus under response types)?

Edited this for length.

< Message edited by chrissyslave -- 2/23/2007 1:03:43 PM >

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 24

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 1:18:30 PM

cateran

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Joined: 2/18/2007
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Michael, wonderful post. I was right in believing that there was a lot to learn and sane people around to learn from.

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Post #: 25

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 2:48:39 PM

szobras

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Joined: 9/18/2006
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I completely agree with SimplyMichael, after all my goal is "Nuture" a positive relationship and interaction. Not punish or gain attention to my desires by negative re-enforcement. As a parent I quite understand the concept of how this relates to the wee ones. This goes for both the physical and the Mental & emotional. Words, and actions hold alot more power than we think at times. Honesty without compassion can be cruelty.

< Message edited by szobras -- 2/23/2007 2:49:16 PM >

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 26

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 3:53:26 PM

SirDominic

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Joined: 11/22/2006
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Good post, jadein. I appreciate the point of view and the clarification. I also agree that when poking fun at innapropriate behavior, one does have to be careful with how it is done. Taking into consideration the person's (adult or child) individual strengths and weaknesses. "Making fun" was a bad term to use anyway. What I do is more a gentle teasing.

But then again, it would be very unlikely for me to take on a slave who got her attention from negative reinforcement anyway. My slave is all about positive reinforcement, extremely eager to learn and to please. I appreciate this sort of relationship, it is the kind I enjoy the most.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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(in reply to jadein)

Post #: 27

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 4:03:27 PM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
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Part of the dynamics in BDSM couplings, more or less, is in justification.

For example, I like painplay, not so much for pain's sake, but for the tinkering with the pain/pleasure line. So if I like it, and a partner likes it, then why not just 'play' simply to play? There doesn't have to be a contrived 'reason'. If we agree that that activity is not 'wrong', then we don't have to create a situation to bring it about. Maybe I don't see the need to roleplay in that way.

But there is also attention starvation, be it real or perceived. Yes, submissives want attention. I suppose we all need some sort of attention from time to time, so just saying that is true of submissives isn't quite fair. And there are multiple 'ways' to give attention. One of those is by playing, another sex, and so on. Relationships being what they are, though, sometimes one partner becomes lax compared to what the needs or desires exist of the other partner. Then, this starvation occurs and there becomes a 'need' to gain attention. I doubt there would be as much 'acting out' if there weren't a problem.

The key, in all things, is communication. But I don't necessarily think in this manner the communication requires verbiage. I think it is easily possible for the partners to 'know' the other well enough to know when and how to show attention and keep the relationship on the right path.

It is also fair to say, I believe, that during the 'getting to know you' phase these observations should take place. If I know of myself that I can only give (attention) of myself X amount, but my partner needs Y amount of attention such that I can't be 'there' enough, then this is a problem that would be known early on, before the relationship has had a great deal of time to become stable.

Just my take on the subject.

Jeff

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 28

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 4:19:30 PM

ravenairsprite

Posts: 28
Joined: 7/23/2004
Status: offline

Well just to add my thoughts. Having come from not the best of situations....I've learned some bad reactions and behaviours. Change takes time, patience, understanding, and acceptance. If a Dom/me is willing to give me that....then they are what I seek. However if I was to be constantly critisized in a negative manner that would only support my beliefs that I have to be bad to get attention. If I was constructively critisized, punished in a form fitting the behaviour or action, and then reminded that I was still cared for. what need have I for attention getting? I think that is kinda what SimplyMichael is getting at. I don't know what else to say but I think this is a great subject and one that maybe should be thought of more.

(in reply to mstrjx)

Post #: 29

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 5:00:33 PM

SimplySubmissive

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Joined: 1/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Submissives and people in general are a lot like children. Submissives require attention and if the only way they get that attention is a negative reinforcement, you are going to spend a lot of time working on punishment because they are going to spend a lot of time being bad.

If one wants a happy well behaved submissive, be proactive. A kind word while you caress her hair when you see she has done some small thing well will go a VERY long way, far longer than any negative punishment.

A quick swat on the ass to punish for negative behavior is only useful if one has the skills to use it effectively. Punish quickly and move both of you BACK to positive things and the related rewards for good behavior. That is effective because YOU are not dwelling on the negative and you ARE back to dwelling on the positive.

This is FAR easier said than done at times, it is something I have only recently become somewhat skilled at. Working with a troublesome submissive, just like a troublesome child, makes it all the more hard. Just keep one thing in mind. It is the attention they crave, the emotional drama/turmoil/etc that they are used to feeding off of and breaking that pattern requires YOUR discipline.

Don't make elaborate rituals around corner time or removing affection because that is what she THINKS she craves, even if she doesn't know it. Instead make it boring and strip as much drama and guilt from the process as possible. If you can, sometimes ignoring bad behavior, especially if you KNOW she is doing her "bad girl" pattern to get negative attention is the most powerful thing you can do. Start looking for tiny good things to give her positive reinforcement over and don't overreward, if you can you don't even want her to notice what you are doing. If she is picking a fight, ignore it, or go out for lunch, or go grocery shopping for a single item, but put space between you or at least change the venue.

When you get back, tell her how nice she looks, or even say "I saw a beautiful garden I never noticed, lets take a walk so I can show you"

Before anyone screams, yes this is my opinion, no it won't work for everyone so if it didn't work for you, it doesn't invalidate what I wrote. Hope someone finds it useful.

fabulous post !
i believe that it's not so much that we submissives are like children, it's that the dynamic of a D/s, or M/s relationship is similar to the dynamic of a parent/child relationship. One is in charge/responsible for the behavior of the other. (yes, i know we are all responsible fore our own actions.. you know what i mean..;)

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 30

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 5:38:59 PM

mefisto69

Posts: 370
Joined: 1/19/2007
Status: offline

I don't have the energy or patience for high maintanance people. I do seek pain sluts and work the hard lines to achieve high levels of erotic pleasure for both of us. While using ones imagination during a scene drives the mutual pleasures ( and even preconceived scenes ).....don' t act like a spoiled brat to get attention........if you have my attention, you won't be maltreated or neglected.

(in reply to SimplySubmissive)

Post #: 31

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 6:10:51 PM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
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From: Scranton, PA
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If I'm not reading too much into Micheal's post, I think what he is really talking about is operant conditioning for behavior modification. Here's a link to a wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

You can see that ignoring bad behavior is what they refer to as "extinction", and punishments and reinforcement are as we expect.

I like rereading this periodically just to remind myself about positive and negative forms of reinforcement and punishment. On the rare occasions I get into punishment, I tend more toward negative punishment (taking away a priveledge) rather than positive punishment (a beating), but that is just my personal style.

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Post #: 32

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 6:15:04 PM

azzmaster

Posts: 864
Joined: 2/15/2007
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i think the op shows alot of insight here

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 33

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 7:54:27 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I suppose we all need some sort of attention from time to time, so just saying that is true of submissives isn't quite fair.

I am glad you said that! Dominants expect to have their every whim catered to, demand their needs be met, require to be the center of their submissives’ world.
Of course that is the whole purpose of D/s or M/s, but if that isn’t attention seeking, I don’t know what is!

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"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
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(in reply to mstrjx)

Post #: 34

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 7:59:35 PM

catize

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Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

I don't think it's that people are like children, I think it's that children are like people.

I love this insight and agree! Thanks, agirl, I'm going to remember this line!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
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(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 35

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 8:04:02 PM

simplewhispers

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excellent post ........

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 36

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/23/2007 8:11:25 PM

simplewhispers

Posts: 232
Joined: 12/27/2006
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treat me nice and the possiblities are endless........ meaness makes me resentful......

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)

Post #: 37

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 2:05:17 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

I suppose we all need some sort of attention from time to time, so just saying that is true of submissives isn't quite fair.

I am glad you said that! Dominants expect to have their every whim catered to, demand their needs be met, require to be the center of their submissives’ world.
Of course that is the whole purpose of D/s or M/s, but if that isn’t attention seeking, I don’t know what is!

Hi catize,

I have to say that that isn't my experience of M/s. The description you gave sounds like a demanding toddler. Maybe M is strange but he doesn't need that kind of attention from me.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 38

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 2:26:52 AM

barefootgal

Posts: 44
Joined: 1/7/2007
From: Milwaukee, WI
Status: offline

quote:

I don't think it's that people are like children, I think it's that children are like people.

agirl

Very, very nicely said.

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Post #: 39

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 3:00:54 AM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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"Punishment v Nurturing"

Motivation is driven by both, but it is important to use them in the appropriate context. Punishing a submissive when she's trying her best can be counter-productive. I err towards nurturing - always have done and always will do, but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. For example, when she's being lazy or manipulative.

Plus, it's not necessarily about her. It's about feeding your own personality i.e your own need to nurture, but also the need to unleash the disciplinarian within you. Context, and feeding the needs of both personalities, are key.

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 40

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