Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 4:33:47 AM   
eyesopened


Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
Status: offline 		i was surprised by such a wonderful post!  Insulted to be childlike?  Hardly.  Since every person i know personally has started life as a child i can't see why anyone would feel insulted by this comment.  Have we really lost our childlike qualities?  Isn't the faith of a child the key to heaven? 

Thanks again for a great post.  

_____________________________

Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 4:51:05 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chrissyslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Submissives and people in general are a lot like children.  Submissives require attention and if the only way they get that attention is a negative reinforcement, you are going to spend a lot of time working on punishment because they are going to spend a lot of time being bad.
 

If we use the "child-parent" analogy brought up already, don't we recognize that a parent giving punishment to a child is a bit different from giving "discipline" to a child?  And for different types of "bad" versus "incorrect" behavior?  Do you as a Dom/Master differentiate between the two issues and provided different responses?  Is your thinking regarding giving "punishment" to unwanted behavior versus different from "refined discipline" and therefore more adjusted to the issue at hand?   

Besides confusing the terms "punishment" with "discipline," we have the two separate meaning of discipline to consider with one being an *adminsitrating/recieving an unpleasant act* and the other the condition of *self-control.* We all want discipline in our lives, tops or bottoms, but we'd rather not have to be disciplined to achieve that.  In fact an undisciplined Dom/Master might be creating the situation where their sub/slave acts out to get more attention, so the giving of "punishment" might be instead be a need for "discipline" and might actually be to the wrong party!  And finally a twister here, how can we as sub/slaves constructively communicate our needs/desires to our Dom/Masters about our attention needs instead of acting out to get it? 

If we as sub/slaves don't know how to communicate our needs effectively then "acting out" is the one option that does achieve this but in a negative way. I appreciate those sub/slaves already responding that said they didn't know why at first they were acting out but now know it was for getting more attention, so "awareness" of our needs is key to first achieve, however it might be the knowledgeable Dom/Master who spots the underlying cause first.

But if we have well communicated it and still not achieved a satisfactory level of attention, either way, then perhaps it was not the best match-up for the relationship in the first place.  But then that also goes for the cases where "discipline" as "self control" is insufficient and not corrected enough even after physical/mental discipline is provided.  So when do you as a dom/master draw the line in your relationships with either case (acting out verus under response types)?  

Edited this for length.




Fantastic post, chrissyslave, and very insightful.

At the moment, Im faced with exactly the question you raise at the end of your post ~ where to draw the line in dealing with a submissive who just doesn't seem to "get it" after much discussion, including various attempts in numerous ways to curve her from "acting out for attention." and under-responding to anything that doesn't satisfy her never-ending and insatiable need for attention.  It seems she's never satisfied  even with what she considers she needs in respect to attention, to the point where her cravings are almost unrealistic. 

It seems that she has a preconceived notion that a D/s relationship involves "being on" every waking hour, although I've done everything I know to push her reality button.  For me, it helps that I subbed r/t for 5 years in the past, so I have a pretty good handle of the dynamic in a D/s relationship, for the most part.

Well . . . .I've made my decision of what to do to resolve the situation, and I must say, it hasn't been an easy decision to make, but I cannot sit on the fence forever.

Thanks again for your post, chrissy.  Feel free to contact me on the other side to discuss your post in more detail, if you care to.

Best Wishes,
LBO

(in reply to chrissyslave)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 5:26:33 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		This is somewhat tongue in cheek but if submissives are a lot like children so are many dominants.  Let me count the ways:

Want their own way
Get upset if things aren't their way
Sometimes hit when not getting their own way
Often don't totally consider the impact on the person they are wanting something from.
Tend to want someone else to do the things they don't want to do.

Very few people are truly adult.  I've seen some truly crappy behavior from both sides of the equation.  Where oh where is that fantasy I initially bought into of the strong all knowing all powerful dom?  Oh wait it was a fantasy. 

The best relationship advice I ever got was from my dad when he said "In the end you are left with another human being and all that implies."

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 6:17:16 AM   
rascallymisty


Posts: 123
Joined: 8/1/2006
Status: offline 		Great Post Michael.
 
 
~ misty ~

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 7:34:33 AM   
MissEnchantress


Posts: 23
Joined: 10/4/2006
Status: offline 		During the course of my life I was, at first, horrified at the thought of using behaviorism - think dog training methods - to control behavior.

Like some of you have said, where is the talking things out like adults.  I studied communication and linguistics.  I can communicate like an expert.

What I have found though, is that 85% of the time Dog training techniques work best - better then 'talking like adults'.

I am very much in agreement with SimplyMichael.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 7:50:25 AM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		i guess the point is that regardless of which tactic you use, it needs to be effective (or what good is it?).....and that will obviously vary from person to person.
 
As for me (and this probably will not be the case for most here), i saw my punishment as nurturing.  When i received a discipline spanking as punishment, not only did i feel that he cared enough about me to pay attention to what i was doing, but he was also willing to take the time to follow through with what he had promised.  And afterward....when all was said and done....there was no doubt that he still loved me as his lil girl.  The whole process was tied in with nurturing and that was very important to me.
 
Now some doms will ignore their subs for a week (or more) at a time...not even allowing contact.  That would never work for me because i see no nurturing in that at all 
 
So as i said, the punishment, in it's own way, was a source of nurturing for me and because of that, i never felt a need to act up for attention.  He gave me plenty of that by his awareness and follow through.
 
DG

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 8:47:28 AM   
GeekyGirl


Posts: 905
Joined: 8/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl



 
Now some doms will ignore their subs for a week (or more) at a time...not even allowing contact.  That would never work for me because i see no nurturing in that at all 

 
DG

It certainly did not work on me either, though my ex refused to see this. It doesn't make the sub feel nurtured..just as though she is dispensable to him and his well being.

(in reply to adaddysgirl)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 11:26:17 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl



 
Now some doms will ignore their subs for a week (or more) at a time...not even allowing contact.  That would never work for me because i see no nurturing in that at all 

 
DG

It certainly did not work on me either, though my ex refused to see this. It doesn't make the sub feel nurtured..just as though she is dispensable to him and his well being.



I'd be sorry, I'd be upset, I'd be frustrated and anxious and the *issue* that caused it would still be there.....I can see that a period of time out for reflection would be useful, but a week long *banishment* would be destructive, for me.

I suppose I could understand someone saying *You've pissed me off so badly that I don't want to speak to you for a week*.....a kind of *Get out of my sight, I need to cool down* type of thing.........but to calculatedly use it as a punishment wouldn't *teach* me anything constructive at all.

agirl

(in reply to GeekyGirl)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/24/2007 12:15:51 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

I'm not sure I could agree, Michael, with the concept of just ignoring her bad behavior (although I realize you said to "sometimes" ignore bad behavior".



In my experience with (lots of) children, (some) dogs, and 2 or 3 submissives, I would weigh in with Michael on ignoring behavior you do not want repeated.

This only works if you reward, reward, reward positive behavior.  These rewards can be as complex as one wants, or as simple as simply acknowledging what the person did. 

It is attention that they all crave.  If they dont get it for acting nice.  They will get it for acting out.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to SirDominic)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 8:06:48 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

 I have to say that that isn't my experience of M/s.  The description you gave sounds like a demanding toddler. Maybe M is strange but he doesn't need that kind of attention from me.    


Waves Hi back at ya, agirl
 
I put it badly in my prior post, although I do think there are some dominants who fit the description as you say of a ‘demanding toddler’, my point is that everyone craves attention from others. Some know how to get it in a good way, others have learned a more negative approach to getting what they need.  I believe that is true whether one is the D, the s, or not into bdsm at all.
However, I would argue that dominance is a demand for attention.  Even when the submissive’s focus is placed not so much on the person but to the details which make the dominant’s life easier, more organized, and generally free of the clutter of daily minutiae,  I believe that is a way of giving him/her attention. 


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 8:56:27 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Submissives and people in general are a lot like children.  Submissives require attention and if the only way they get that attention is a negative reinforcement, you are going to spend a lot of time working on punishment because they are going to spend a lot of time being bad.


I disagree with this derogatory generality on principle.   Not all individuals regardless of age are attention seekers.... however, everyone has a basic psychological need to connected with their surroundings.  The degree this need exists however will be to varying degrees from person to person.

However. I do agree that those that are starving for attention can very much equate negative reinforcement as a positive outcome for themselves.  But, just because a few will equate negative reinforcement is a postive outcome is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Like any tool... it's most effective when used for the right job. 


quote:


If one wants a happy well behaved submissive, be proactive.  A kind word while you caress her hair when you see she has done some small thing well will go a VERY long way, far longer than any negative punishment.


I do agree that postive reinforcement is much more effective than negative reinforcement.  Many studies have been done that support my point.

However...  one being more effective doesn't equate the other is not effective.  In fact the statement of being more effective is rather misleading.  It is more like it has more opportunites to be effective than the other one does.  But.. given the right opportunity... negative reinforcement can be much more effective than postive reinforcement.  It is a question of what tool is most effective in the given situation.

Stated another way.... Giving a wrench to a Carpenter doesn't make the wrench ineffective.. it just is not as useful as a hammer to the carpenter.  The wrench is more useful to the mechanic... the hammer is more useful to the carpenter.

quote:


A quick swat on the ass to punish for negative behavior is only useful if one has the skills to use it effectively.  Punish quickly and move both of you BACK to positive things and the related rewards for good behavior.   That is effective because YOU are not dwelling on the negative and you ARE back to dwelling on the positive. 


Your approach is one way to use negative reinforcement... but it is not the only way and not the only way that will be effective.

However, I do agree that negative reinforcement is a much more difficult tool to use effectively than positive reinforcment.  The irony is that it appears much easier to use negative reinforcement than it is to use positive reinforcement.  But, appearances can be misleading.  I would suggest that we will tend towards using a given tool that is easiest for us to use and not neccessarily the right tool for the job.  Why one manner is easiest over another is going to be a rather subjective answer.


quote:


This is FAR easier said than done at times, it is something I have only recently become somewhat skilled at.  Working with a troublesome submissive, just like a troublesome child, makes it all the more hard.  Just keep one thing in mind.  It is the attention they crave, the emotional drama/turmoil/etc that they are used to feeding off of and breaking that pattern requires YOUR discipline.


I would say it's this troublesome submissive that is craving your attention.. and not that all submissives will be troublesome and craving attention.  What is working for you here doesn't equate to being the only tool for everyone else.  But.. it could be the right tool for some.

quote:


Don't make elaborate rituals around corner time or removing affection because that is what she THINKS she craves, even if she doesn't know it.  Instead make it boring and strip as much drama and guilt from the process as possible.  If you can, sometimes ignoring bad behavior, especially if you KNOW she is doing her "bad girl" pattern to get negative attention is the most powerful thing  you can do.  Start looking for tiny good things to give her positive reinforcement over and don't overreward, if you can you don't even want her to notice what you are doing.  If she is picking a fight, ignore it, or go out for lunch, or go grocery shopping for a single item, but put space between you or at least change the venue.


Again.. this approach is only useful in the right situation.  I do agree that using your approach is the right tool when working with a person that is attempting to create drama... creating drama to get attention that is.

quote:


Before anyone screams, yes this is my opinion, no it won't work for everyone so if it didn't work for you, it doesn't invalidate what I wrote.  Hope someone finds it useful.


I agree that just because it doesn't work for someone else doesn't make it invalidate your experience.  However, you are communicating your method as the only tool to use and therefore suggesting that others methods are invalid.

Your approach would likely of been more effective if you stated something like this....

"If you have this situation X... I have found this approach Y to be effective" 

it also doesn't hurt to ask the following...

"if you have this situation X... Have other found a different approach than Y to be effective?"

after all... could it hurt to learn of another approach that could be effective in one's given sitaution?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 10:29:12 AM   
ImpGrrl


Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Re: KOM's last post -

IAWTC.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 10:35:38 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

IAWTC.


Ok this is a new one to me.  what the heck does it mean?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ImpGrrl)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 10:37:10 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

IAWTC.


Ok this is a new one to me.  what the heck does it mean?


OK  never mind.. figured it out... brain fart was happening

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 11:02:02 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		KOM

quote:

Submissives require attention and if the only way they get that attention is a negative reinforcement


I think you missed the "if"...

I agree with much of what you wrote but not as a criticism of what I wrote.  I was responding to the many many threads here talking over and over again about beating/abandoning/punishing women to make them "good" submissives.  The post was directed at those who are caught in that cycle, not for people in well rounded healthy relationships. 

quote:

  However, I do agree that negative reinforcement is a much more difficult tool to use effectively than positive reinforcment.


So do I, I mentioned a quick slap on the ass only as an example.  Several places you make the point that techniques are not universal, can you tell me why you think I or my posts makes the case that techniques are universal and work equally well in all situations?  You yourself make the point that

quote:

I do agree that negative reinforcement is a much more difficult tool to use effectively than positive reinforcment.  The irony is that it appears much easier to use negative reinforcement than it is to use positive reinforcement.


I outline ONE way but again, I don't see where I made the case that it was the only way.


(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 11:34:28 AM   
subAlly05


Posts: 5
Joined: 10/14/2006
Status: offline 		Just wondering, Geekygirl. This may be the obvious question, but Did you tell your dom/master about all this? ie, have you told him how much you'd appreciate a simple one line reply on ICQ? It may even help to simply have him read this post.

(in reply to GeekyGirl)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 2:51:26 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		to answer you question

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
If one wants a happy well behaved submissive, be proactive. 


this comment equates to stating that... if you are not proactive... you will not have a happy well behaved submissive....  it implies a one true way line of thought.

Thou I do agree that proactive approach can be effective.. it is not the only way to have a happy well behaved submissive.


quote:


Punish quickly and move both of you BACK to positive things and the related rewards for good behavior.   That is effective because YOU are not dwelling on the negative and you ARE back to dwelling on the positive. 


again it implies a one way approach in using negative reinforcement coupled with positive affirmations.  There are more than a few ways to do this.


quote:


Just keep one thing in mind.  It is the attention they crave, the emotional drama/turmoil/etc that they are used to feeding off of and breaking that pattern requires YOUR discipline.


and yet again. you show a one way approach.  You also make and assumption that all submissives crave attention.  I agree that in some situations your approach is indeed very effective.. but it can be equally useless not much different than giving a wrench to a carpenter.


quote:



Before anyone screams, yes this is my opinion, no it won't work for everyone so if it didn't work for you, it doesn't invalidate what I wrote.  Hope someone finds it useful.


yes it is your opinion... hell we all have opinions..  But.. if I say

"I have the only true way... but this is my opinion!"  Well does it get me of the hook of conveying a one truism attitude because I put the qualifier that it is my opinion.  Not in the least.  I don't think you intent is to convey a one-truism attitude.  In fact.. you convey can be very useful given the right circumstances.  However.... you don't convey it as the right circumstances.. you infact.. express some generalizations of people and more specifically of submissives.  However, maybe your experiences of submissives is exactly what you have expressed... and it is difficullt if not impossible to realize that not all submissives are craving attention seekers.  In fact.... some are very very low attentions seekers.  Some are very much just waiting for the attention... but they don't act up to get it.  The get it when they get it.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 3:06:04 PM   
GeekyGirl


Posts: 905
Joined: 8/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subAlly05

Just wondering, Geekygirl. This may be the obvious question, but Did you tell your dom/master about all this? ie, have you told him how much you'd appreciate a simple one line reply on ICQ? It may even help to simply have him read this post.


Well we're broke up again now (break up #3) and yes I told him constantly the entire 7 months we were involved. I am VERY vocal about expressing how I feel about things. He knew.  He just didn't care. If he was busy doing his own thing, he just ignored me and if I asked for even 5 minutes of attention, I was being "a demanding little bitch". He flat out told me, "I will not talk to you every day. I come home from work, I'm tired, and I do not want to speak to you or anyone else...not even one line".

(in reply to subAlly05)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 6:01:06 PM   
adaddysgirl


Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline 		Ya know Geeky, there is a saying (although i can't recall the exact wording but i'll give the gist):  Never make someone a priority who treats you as an option.  i have pretty much made that my personal motto.  i just really don't have time to try to work on connecting with another when they don't have the time of day for me.  Just a thought to share.
 
DG

(in reply to GeekyGirl)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing - 2/25/2007 6:07:37 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

IAWTC.


Ok this is a new one to me.  what the heck does it mean?


International Assocation of World Trade Center workers?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Punishment vs. Nurturing Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109